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** This gets a little long. For a reason straight out of the movie just go all the way down, where I added soething everyone forgot. If that doesn't suit you, come on back up here and buckle up :)
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**** Assuming a 4 year Academy degree and commission at 18, 23 for Ensign... 8 years to Captain is rather fast, but certainly not unfeasible.
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**** Assuming a 4 year Academy degree and commission at 18, 23 for Ensign... 8 years to Captain is rather fast, but certainly not unfeasible.
unfeasible.
**** Everyone has fogotten what kirk is told when Pike is talking him into joining starfleet. He says "you can have your own starship in four years." Pike expected him to have a ship of his own in four years under REGULAR circumstances. Kirk then says "four years? I'll do it in three." Next thing we see is "three years later." And what happens after that? Everyone (or nearly everyone at least) from the school with seniority over him DIES in the first engagment, he gets temporary assignment as captain (eventually), saves earth and destroys a huge threat to the rest of the galaxy at the same time, spock (the next logical choice) Nearly leaves starfleet entirely (only coming back to be under kirk) and Pike, the former captain, gets promoted to Admiral, and since he was pretty into the idea of kirk getting a ship in the first place, would have certainly dropped a heck of a recomendation.
***** Yeah, the whole thing seems much more resonable when you realize kirk only got his ship 1 year earlier than is typical in this universe, AND that everyone ahead of him on the list probably got vaporized.
**** Everyone has fogotten what kirk is told when Pike is talking him into joining starfleet. He says "you can have your own starship in four years." Pike expected him to have a ship of his own in four years under REGULAR circumstances. Kirk then says "four years? I'll do it in three." Next thing we see is "three years later." And what happens after that? Everyone (or nearly everyone at least) from the school with seniority over him DIES in the first engagment, he gets temporary assignment as captain (eventually), saves earth and destroys a huge threat to the rest of the galaxy at the same time, spock (the next logical choice) Nearly leaves starfleet entirely (only coming back to be under kirk) and Pike, the former captain, gets promoted to Admiral, and since he was pretty into the idea of kirk getting a ship in the first place, would have certainly dropped a heck of a recomendation.
***** Yeah, the whole thing seems much more resonable when you realize kirk only got his ship 1 year earlier than is typical in this universe, AND that everyone ahead of him on the list probably got vaporized.
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* Given that the Romulans power their starships with minature black holes, shouldn't they have probably been able to do something to prevent this entire situation in the first place? I mean, it's sort of their shtick. For that matter, given that every one knows Trilithum makes stars go Supernova at this point, shouldn't most Alpha Quadrant factions have spent years scrambling to find a way to stop said novas? I mean, random Maqui almost did it to the Cardassians in DS9.
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* Given that the Romulans power their starships with minature black holes, shouldn't they have probably been able to do something to prevent this entire situation in the first place? I mean, it's sort of their shtick. For that matter, given that every one knows Trilithum makes stars go Supernova at this point, shouldn't most Alpha Quadrant factions have spent years scrambling to find a way to stop said novas? I mean, random Maqui almost did it to the Cardassians in DS9.DS9.
* Spock Prime's line of thought, put somewhat uncharitably: "I can't just visit Alternate Me and provide my knowledge to help save the day, because it's far more important that Alt-Kirk and Alt-me become FireForgedFriends. And the first step Kirk must take to become so closely bonded with Spock is to rub in the loss of Spock's planet, people, and mother to the point that he wants to kill Kirk. WhatCouldPossiblyGoWrong?" My real peeve here is Spock's insistence on conflating the alternate characters with the ones from his universe, for example, telling Scotty that "you haven't invented it yet" and telling Quinto-Spock that "my customary greeting would be oddly self-serving". The thing is, these are truly different people, with different backgrounds shaping their characters! At ''best'' they have the same DNA, and in the case of people conceived after the divergence, that's not too likely either. On what basis can he assume that, for example, ''this'' Kirk and ''this'' Spock will work great together? (He hasn't seen any of them until Kirk shows up.) And Kirk simply ''must'' become the captain, because he's Kirk. Is Spock Prime in his old age just afraid of change and trying to recreate his glory days?
* Spock Prime's line of thought, put somewhat uncharitably: "I can't just visit Alternate Me and provide my knowledge to help save the day, because it's far more important that Alt-Kirk and Alt-me become FireForgedFriends. And the first step Kirk must take to become so closely bonded with Spock is to rub in the loss of Spock's planet, people, and mother to the point that he wants to kill Kirk. WhatCouldPossiblyGoWrong?" My real peeve here is Spock's insistence on conflating the alternate characters with the ones from his universe, for example, telling Scotty that "you haven't invented it yet" and telling Quinto-Spock that "my customary greeting would be oddly self-serving". The thing is, these are truly different people, with different backgrounds shaping their characters! At ''best'' they have the same DNA, and in the case of people conceived after the divergence, that's not too likely either. On what basis can he assume that, for example, ''this'' Kirk and ''this'' Spock will work great together? (He hasn't seen any of them until Kirk shows up.) And Kirk simply ''must'' become the captain, because he's Kirk. Is Spock Prime in his old age just afraid of change and trying to recreate his glory days?
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rewrite on Sam Kirk, as requested
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** Sam is the kid walking down the road when Kirk drives past in the car near the beginning. In the deleted scene, which would've made this whole part make more sense, Sam is running away and leaves Jim behind. Right after Jim is told that his uncle is going to sell the car (which actually originally belonged to George Kirk, so Jim doesn't want it sold) so Jim had better clean it. This combined with Sam's running away leads Jim to the whole act of rebellion with stealing the car, and driving past Sam on the road. So Sam is still there, he just wasn't really considered an important part of the film. (It's like 3am, so if any less sleep deprived Troper wants to neaten this up, I'm sure everyone would be thankful.)
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** Sam Kirk is the older kid walking down the road when whom Kirk drives past in the car near the beginning. In the and yells to. A deleted scene, which would've made scene gives this whole part make more sense, context: Sam is running runs away and leaves Jim behind. Right after Jim is told that his uncle is going to sell the car (which actually originally belonged to George Kirk, his father George, so Jim doesn't want it sold) so sold), and Jim had better is told to clean it. This combined with Sam's running away leads prompts Jim to the whole act of rebellion with rebel by stealing the car, and driving past Sam on the road. So Sam is still there, car; when he just wasn't really considered an important part of the film. (It's like 3am, so if any less sleep deprived Troper wants sees Sam, he yells out to neaten this up, I'm sure everyone would be thankful.)
him.
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**** Obviously the trench was formed first, ''then'' the flooding from global warming happened. Perhaps environmentalists ''let'' it happen to make up for falling sea levels.
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*** Isn't the whole thing an artifically created "Black Hole" anyway? Standard physics need not apply.
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*** I second that. Crappy fanfic meets WMG? Sentient ships? It might be hybrid Borg tech, but even Borg tip isn't sentient.
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*** I second that. Crappy fanfic meets WMG? Sentient ships? It might be hybrid Borg tech, but even Borg tip tech isn't sentient.
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*** I second that. Crappy fanfic meets WMG? Sentient ships? It might be hybrid Borg tech, but even Borg tip isn't sentient.
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** Two points: (1) Spock has never actually [i]encountered[/i] the neural parasites, the Borg or the Dominion (on-screen) or Armus in person. How is he supposed to warn Starfleet about threats he knows next to nothing about? (2) Nero and his crew encountered V'ger in the comic book tie-in series of the same name. That right there is already an alteration of the original timeline. There's nothing that says all the future events will play out exactly the same way.
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** Two points: (1) Spock has never actually [i]encountered[/i] ''encountered'' the neural parasites, the Borg or the Dominion (on-screen) or Armus in person. How is he supposed to warn Starfleet about threats he knows next to nothing about? (2) Nero and his crew encountered V'ger in the comic book tie-in series of the same name. That right there is already an alteration of the original timeline. There's nothing that says all the future events will play out exactly the same way.
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)
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*** This clarifies this. Plus it makes me think about a DoctorWho story[[hottop:*:Blink]] where victims are sent back in time far enough so that when the present day rolls around, the victims are too old to live, a secondary meaning to "impossible to get them back"
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*** This clarifies this. Plus it makes me think about a DoctorWho story[[hottop:*:Blink]] story[[hottip:*:Blink]] where victims are sent back in time far enough so that when the present day rolls around, the victims are too old to live, a secondary meaning to "impossible to get them back"
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Changed line(s) 421 (click to see context) from:
*** This clarifies this. Plus it makes me think about a DoctorWho story where victims are sent back in time far enough so that when the present day rolls around, the victims are too old to live, a secondary meaning to "impossible to get them back"
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*** This clarifies this. Plus it makes me think about a DoctorWho story story[[hottop:*:Blink]] where victims are sent back in time far enough so that when the present day rolls around, the victims are too old to live, a secondary meaning to "impossible to get them back"
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*** Personally I like the beleive that it is the interaction between the balck hole and warp drive that allows the ships to survive and travel back in time. [[spoiler: This explains why neither the planet or the Narada the second time survive. Also even if it went back in time everything on Vulcan is dead, the planet was turned inside out and would be a cloud of mostly rock.]]
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*** Personally I like the beleive believe that it is the interaction between the balck hole and warp drive that allows the ships to survive and travel back in time. [[spoiler: This explains why neither the planet or the Narada the second time survive. Also even if it went back in time everything on Vulcan is dead, the planet was turned inside out and would be a cloud of mostly rock.]]
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*** There's actually a component within the transporter known as the "Doppler." It compensates for this sort of thing. If it didn't, and a ship tried to beam a person up or down while the ship was orbiting in the opposite direction of planetary rotation... [[UNderstatement bad stuff]] would happen.
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*** There's actually a component within the transporter known as the "Doppler." It compensates for this sort of thing. If it didn't, and a ship tried to beam a person up or down while the ship was orbiting in the opposite direction of planetary rotation... [[UNderstatement [[{{Understatement}} bad stuff]] would happen.
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**Does that mean that when the Space Whale Probe comes to Earth in the new timeline, Pine etc will time warp back to the 80s where they might meet Shatner?
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*** Plus the original ''Enterprise'' didn't have many windows in the first place.
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** Two points: (1) Spock has never actually [i]encountered[/i] the neural parasites, the Borg or the Dominion (on-screen) or Armus in person. How is he supposed to warn Starfleet about threats he knows next to nothing about? (2) Nero and his crew encountered V'ger in the comic book tie-in series of the same name. That right there is already an alteration of the original timeline. There's nothing that says all the future events will play out exactly the same way.
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** This Enterprise is a lot more militaristic than the old one. Military warships don't have a whole bunch of windows - a window is a weak point in the hull, a joint between two different materials and an easy place for a minor hit to turn into a Golden BB.
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*** Not to mention that in the alternate universe, Riverside seems to have stolen San Francisco's title as the place of ''Enterprise'''s birth (though SF keeps the title of "place of launch"). So, one main "character" was still born in Riverside.
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**** The Narada was a (possibly Borg enhanced) Romulan mining ship from the year 2387 that was sent back to 2233. It attacked the Klingons in 2258, and at that time was 129 years more advanced. Just to clear things up.
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****** It depends on how the test played out in the movie, which I can't really remember. If the ''only'' option was to go rescue the Kobayashi Maru, then yeah, the test is dumb and serves no purpose. And even if it's designed well, it only works so long as the cadet doesn't know there wasn't any right answer - Kirk already knew that, so his reprogramming the simulation was really a more honest approach than playing it straight (it at least clued Starfleet into the fact that the gig's up).
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***** To be honest, I'd chalk it up to the test being stupid; Spock isn't even a cadet at this point, he's a full blown commander, and soon-to-be XO on Starfleet's new flagship. As he's the one who programmed the stupid test for the last few years, I'd assume he knows it back to front, so I'll lay the blame on whoever came up with it.
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***** I'd chalk it up to Spock using inappropriate hyperbole, since he's still a cadet and, being half-Vulcan and raised by Vulcans, has a wonky understanding of human emotions anyway. As said, there's no way it can really create a fear of death, anymore than a grueling Halo level can terrify anyone into thinking they're going to die. Besides, fear of death might not even factor into it for some cadets; they can choose not to rescue the Kobayashi Maru. The most it can hope to simulate is the fear of failure.
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**** That answer works pretty well in the Prime universe; however Spock specifically states "The purpose is to experience fear; fear in the face of certain death." Either the test is stupid, or ''Spock'' was the one who failed to see its purpose.
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**** The real purpose of the test is to make sure the cadet doesn't freeze up with indecision and do nothing. A CO will face situations where there's no good answer, but they still have to bite the bullet and make a decision; the fear to be overcome isn't the fear of dying, just the fear of getting the answer wrong and flunking the exam. (The test only works that way, though, so long as the cadet doesn't already know it's an unwinnable situation going in, like Kirk did. By the TNG era, they were using a few other secretly unwinnable tests to play the same role.)
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**** The real purpose of the test is to make sure the cadet doesn't freeze up with indecision and do nothing. A CO will face situations where there's no good answer, but they still have to bite the bullet and make a decision; the decision. The fear to be overcome isn't the fear of dying, just the fear of getting the answer wrong and flunking the exam. (The test only works that way, though, so long as the cadet doesn't already know it's an unwinnable situation going in, like Kirk did. By did - by the TNG era, they were using a few other secretly unwinnable tests to play the same role.)
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Changed line(s) 482 (click to see context) from:
**** The real purpose of the test is to make sure the cadet doesn't freeze up with indecision and do nothing. A CO will face situations where there's no good answer, but they still have to bite the bullet and make a decision; the fear to be overcome isn't the fear of dying, just the fear of getting the answer wrong and flunking the exam. The test only works that way, though, so long as the cadet doesn't already know it's an unwinnable situation going in, like Kirk did. By the TNG era, they were using a few other secretly unwinnable tests to play the same role.
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**** The real purpose of the test is to make sure the cadet doesn't freeze up with indecision and do nothing. A CO will face situations where there's no good answer, but they still have to bite the bullet and make a decision; the fear to be overcome isn't the fear of dying, just the fear of getting the answer wrong and flunking the exam. The (The test only works that way, though, so long as the cadet doesn't already know it's an unwinnable situation going in, like Kirk did. By the TNG era, they were using a few other secretly unwinnable tests to play the same role.)
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**** The real purpose of the test is to make sure the cadet doesn't freeze up with indecision and do nothing. A CO will face situations where there's no good answer, but they still have to bite the bullet and make a decision; the fear to be overcome isn't the fear of dying, just the fear of getting the answer wrong and flunking the exam. The test only works that way, though, so long as the cadet doesn't already know it's an unwinnable situation going in, like Kirk did. By the TNG era, they were using a few other secretly unwinnable tests to play the same role.
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*** :Shrugs: Maybe Spock was unconsiously holding back? FOr some reason? Yeah....
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*** :Shrugs: Maybe Spock was unconsiously holding back? FOr For some reason? Yeah....
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*** Presoanly I like the beleive that it is the interaction between the balck hole and warp drive that allows the ships to survive and travel back in time. [[spoiler: This explains why neither the planet or the Narada the second time survive. Also even if it went back in time everything on Vulcan is dead, the planet was turned inside out and would be a cloud of mostly rock.]]
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*** Presoanly Personally I like the beleive that it is the interaction between the balck hole and warp drive that allows the ships to survive and travel back in time. [[spoiler: This explains why neither the planet or the Narada the second time survive. Also even if it went back in time everything on Vulcan is dead, the planet was turned inside out and would be a cloud of mostly rock.]]
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*** :Shrugs: Maybe Spock was unconsiously holding back? FOr some reason? Yeah....
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* When Kirk and Scotty transwarp beam onto the Enterprise, Chekhov doesn't notice them until Kirk opens the emergency release thing. Shouldn't an intuder alert have gone off in the first place?
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* When Kirk and Scotty transwarp beam onto the Enterprise, Chekhov doesn't notice them until Kirk opens the emergency release thing. Shouldn't an intuder intruder alert have gone off in the first place?
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** He didn't. [[SchizoTechnican I]] got the distinct impression that he'd been waiting patiently that whole time.
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** He didn't. [[SchizoTechnican [[Tropers/SchizoTechnican I]] got the distinct impression that he'd been waiting patiently that whole time.
