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*** Setting aside of how immature it would be to stop using such a vital resource because of one emotionally bad experience (and they didn't seem eager to distance themselves from it), was their experience with it really that bad? Ruby got to use it to save a city thanks to LoopholeAbuse, and when they asked it a question, Jinn gave them Ozpin's full backstory, which revealed some scary truths, but was effectively what they wanted out of the lamp.
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*** But she's clearly moved on from Ozma now, at least in regards to mourning him or wanting him back. Sure, she's not wholly psychologically detached from him, doubtlessly hating him as an enemy and obstacle and probably still holding lingering feelings of betrayal, but how is becoming psychologically detached from someone the same as "the importance of life and death?" Is it that, when someone dies, you have a chance to become a whole new person? That sort of works, even if the person not staying dead skews it, but Light's words implied it was about some kind of balance.
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*** A triumphant display of military bravado would have meant attacking Salem's forces; this is a display of scientific retreat, if not cowardice, suggesting he's just incompetent all around.
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** Perhaps the ground opening up is a default method and won't work for certain people. The Pleasers are meant to beautify the land, and opening up giant cracks in the ground goes against that, hence they need a different way to Ascend.
** They were probably put off from using the lamp given that the one answer they got doubled as a psychological sucker punch.
** The curse was put on her in response to getting Ozma resurrected. Now that we know the Brothers' origin, the importance probably ties back into the logic behind the Ascension process in the Ever After, a process of renewal and improvement. While it was tragic for Salem to lose Ozma, she also had the chance to do things she couldn't do if she were still attached to him, but threw that away because she was obsessed with maintaining a status quo that she liked. Another way to phrase it is the moral from Red vs Blue Season 10:
---> '''Agent Carolina:''' You need to let go. Your past doesn't define who you are. It just gives you the starting point for who you're going to be.
---> '''Agent Carolina:''' You need to let go. Your past doesn't define who you are. It just gives you the starting point for who you're going to be.
** Her sheer determination to kill Ruby unlocked her upgrade, though we can speculate that it was something about that side of the Ever After, since no one else went there. As for her knowledge, either she was following the gang more closely than we thought or she assimilated the Jabberwalker's knowledge when she assimilated the beast itself.
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*** The question isn't "why hasn't he summoned the Gods yet?" (even without those examples, four different countries doesn't scream "unity.") It's "what is current goal?" What was meant by bringing up his chance to become king of the world was that putting all people under one flag would count as unity by some definitions, and him getting such a chance proves he is really good at controlling Remnant's politics, and the fact that he didn't summon the gods then suggests he expects to see an even more unified humanity in the future. Ergo, Salem isn't an insurmountable obstacle to unifying humanity, which is, itself, possible. And while the gods didn't give specific criterea for what "unified" entails, and Fanaus discrimination should hopefully (and could feasibly) be gotten rid of if one wants the world as unified as possible - not just politically unified and no major conflicts - before summoning the gods, presumably a few bandit tribes and criminal gangs existing aren't enough to make humanity fail the challenge; even if the Gods are unreasonable enough to think that its possible to get rid of them entirely, Ozpin should know it isn't, and clearly doesn't consider regular crime a problem he must solve first, or else he'd see his task as impossible and have given up.
** One potentially important detail is that the GoL never technically said humanity needed to be united, just not fighting amongst themselves and having put aside their differences. Jinn says Ozpin sees his mission as uniting humanity, but that could just be shorthand for the actually stated objective. This might explain why Ozpin didn't make himself King after the great war and has since focused on more realistic methods to lasting world peace (monarchies tend to have succession crises), but also means that he's even closer to victory that initially believed, since there's been 80 years of lasting peace and fanaus discrimination is probably his only roadblock besides Salem.
** One potentially important detail is that the GoL never technically said humanity needed to be united, just not fighting amongst themselves and having put aside their differences. Jinn says Ozpin sees his mission as uniting humanity, but that could just be shorthand for the actually stated objective. This might explain why Ozpin didn't make himself King after the great war and has since focused on more realistic methods to lasting world peace (monarchies tend to have succession crises), but also means that he's even closer to victory that initially believed, since there's been 80 years of lasting peace and fanaus discrimination is probably his only roadblock besides Salem.
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*** The question isn't "why hasn't he summoned the Gods yet?" (even without those examples, four different countries doesn't scream "unity.") It's "what is current goal?" What was meant by bringing up his chance to become king of the world was that putting all people under one flag would count as unity by some definitions, and him getting such a chance proves he is really good at controlling Remnant's politics, and the fact that he didn't summon the gods then suggests he expects to see an even more unified humanity in the future. Ergo, Salem isn't an insurmountable obstacle to unifying humanity, which is, itself, possible. And while the gods didn't give specific criterea criteria for what "unified" entails, and Fanaus Faunus discrimination should hopefully (and could feasibly) be gotten rid of if one wants the world as unified as possible - not just politically unified and no major conflicts - before summoning the gods, presumably a few bandit tribes and criminal gangs existing aren't enough to make humanity fail the challenge; even if the Gods are unreasonable enough to think that its possible to get rid of them entirely, Ozpin should know it isn't, and clearly doesn't consider regular crime a problem he must solve first, or else he'd see his task as impossible and have given up.
** One potentially important detail is that the GoL never technically said humanity needed to be united, just not fighting amongst themselves and having put aside their differences. Jinn says Ozpin sees his mission as uniting humanity, but that could just be shorthand for the actually stated objective. This might explain why Ozpin didn't make himself King after the great war and has since focused on more realistic methods to lasting world peace (monarchies tend to have succession crises), but also means that he's even closer to victory that initially believed, since there's been 80 years of lasting peace andfanaus Faunus discrimination is probably his only roadblock besides Salem.
** One potentially important detail is that the GoL never technically said humanity needed to be united, just not fighting amongst themselves and having put aside their differences. Jinn says Ozpin sees his mission as uniting humanity, but that could just be shorthand for the actually stated objective. This might explain why Ozpin didn't make himself King after the great war and has since focused on more realistic methods to lasting world peace (monarchies tend to have succession crises), but also means that he's even closer to victory that initially believed, since there's been 80 years of lasting peace and
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** Even if they could brush Tyrian off, the mere introduction of the idea that Salem might want to destroy the world should probably be enough to get them to question their loyalties, considering A. If Salem told Tyrian this, it means she lies to her followers, so how to they know she'd not lying to them? and B. From their POV, there'd be an awful lot of evidence backing Tyrian's claim: They know nothing about Salem's origins, which means next to no theory (she's the God of Darkness, she's an alien, she's the grimm parody of humanity in the same way most grimm are twisted parodies of other animals, and just got immortality instead of multiple incarnations) could be ruled out, but do know she looks like a Grimm, controls Grimm, and all their efforts so far, besides getting the relics, have been focused on destruction of people and infrastructure i.e. the things they will supposedly rule over once they're done, with no actual power-building.
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** Even if they could brush Tyrian off, the mere introduction of the idea that Salem might want to destroy the world should probably be enough to get them to question their loyalties, considering A. If Salem told Tyrian this, it means she lies to her followers, so how to they know she'd not lying to them? and B. From their POV, there'd be an awful lot of evidence backing Tyrian's claim: They know nothing about Salem's origins, which means next to no theory (she's the God of Darkness, she's an alien, she's the grimm Grimm parody of humanity in the same way most grimm Grimm are twisted parodies of other animals, and just got immortality instead of multiple incarnations) could be ruled out, but do know she looks like a Grimm, controls Grimm, and all their efforts so far, besides getting the relics, have been focused on destruction of people and infrastructure i.e. the things they will supposedly rule over once they're done, with no actual power-building.
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****I don’t remember it being mentioned that it was ever discussed before, but if it was it may have been assumed that they’d be able to wait the enemy out and eventually come down. It might have been approved in that case, but whoever came up with it in that scenario probably didn’t anticipate an organized siege by Grimm lead by an immortal witch.
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*** But while the decision to go through with the plan was made in a time of crisis, the plan wasn't, and so had time to be rationally thought through and summarily dismissed. Was he struck with panic-induced-idiocy/desperation that he drudged up an idea from a planning session years ago and forgot the obvious and inescapable reasons it was dismissed?
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***He didn’t fully think the idea through. It’s a bit of a theme with the character. His answer to everything involves a “triumphant display of military bravado,” regardless of how good an idea that may be.
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*** Ironwood says "it was Oz's plan in a former life, but he didn't take it far enough. If we harness etc." This likely means that Oz's original idea was simply to raise the city very high and make it more defensible, as opposed to Ironwood's idea of taking it into the upper atmosphere and seemingly staying there for good. If this is true, Oz's plan would possibly leave it easier to resupply the city, but also easier to attack it. Ironwood's plan would make doing either effectively impossible. But this means that Ironwood is probably incompetent (not just callous or paranoid) military leader of the millennia if he's willing to even consider a plan of defense that completely cuts you off from supplies. Unless he's banking on the rest of the world being being able to deplete Salem's forces enough to where it's safe to come down. But if Ironwood doesn't think the most technologically advanced army in history can do that, why would he think the other kingdoms can?
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**As I recall Ironwood specifically said initially putting the city in the sky was Ozma’s idea but he was going to take it further.
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** It may be that they thought of it as a temporary thing, that Ruby was just feeling "down", instead of realizing that it was a sign of how utterly BROKEN she was by everything.
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*** I was referring to Ironwood/Ozma's plan to raise the city even higher, which would leave them unable to receive supplies from Mantle or other kingdoms (because Salem's forces could destroy supply ships, even if the ships could fly that high). Such concerns of supplies are arguably the #1 question of siege warfare, and a plan that doesn't account for them should be thrown out out of hand. Also, while the Staff supplies the energy, doesn't Atlas actually turn that energy into lift through conventional machines (which would be subject to mechanical failures)?
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**Apart from the staff, which doesn’t need any kind of maintenance, explicitly being what keeps the city airborne, they probably have food and materials shipped from Mantle and/or the other kingdoms as needed. You’re not the first to note that Ironwood completely cutting them off would probably end badly.
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[[folder: Logistics of a Flying City
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[[folder: Logistics of a Flying CityCity]]
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[[folder: Logistics of a Flying City
* Would an elevated Atlas be entirely self-sufficient, as it would have to be to be a practical solution to Salem? Even being as generous as possible, it doesn't seem like they'd last more than a few decades. We saw potential farmland outside the walls (though probably not enough to feed thousands.) Maybe the force-fields could create an artificial atmosphere to allow them to go higher than the highest-flying Grimm could breathe, and they'd configure some method of collecting rainwater without compromising their atmosphere. And maybe the Staff of Creation could foot the energy bill for the forcefields and their electricity as well as keeping them afloat. But even recycling as well as possible, their technology would get damaged beyond repair and without it, they'd fall out of the sky, right? Now, I can almost understand Ironwood being so shortsighted in his plans, but they say one of Ozma's incarnations came up with it.
[[/folder]]
* Would an elevated Atlas be entirely self-sufficient, as it would have to be to be a practical solution to Salem? Even being as generous as possible, it doesn't seem like they'd last more than a few decades. We saw potential farmland outside the walls (though probably not enough to feed thousands.) Maybe the force-fields could create an artificial atmosphere to allow them to go higher than the highest-flying Grimm could breathe, and they'd configure some method of collecting rainwater without compromising their atmosphere. And maybe the Staff of Creation could foot the energy bill for the forcefields and their electricity as well as keeping them afloat. But even recycling as well as possible, their technology would get damaged beyond repair and without it, they'd fall out of the sky, right? Now, I can almost understand Ironwood being so shortsighted in his plans, but they say one of Ozma's incarnations came up with it.
[[/folder]]
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* So did Tyrian just never mention the fact that Salem wants to destroy the world before despite how freely he offers that information when Emerald and Mercury are discussing it in volume eight? I mean I could see the rest of the group being used to disregarding a lot of what he says because he’s insane, but Hazel never even mentions having heard that before when Oscar brings it up. Come to think of it, did Ozpin not tell Hazel that Salem is an OmnicidalManiac (albeit one with different methods and motivations) back when Hazel was on his side, like he seemingly told Qrow, Raven, and probably his other council members and the current heroes?
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* So did Tyrian just never mention the fact that Salem wants to destroy the world before despite how freely he offers that information when Emerald and Mercury are discussing it in volume eight? I mean I could see the rest of the group being used to disregarding a lot of what he says because he’s insane, but Hazel never even mentions having heard that before when Oscar brings it up. Come to think of it, did Ozpin not tell Hazel that Salem is an OmnicidalManiac (albeit one with different methods and motivations) back when Hazel was on his side, like he seemingly told Qrow, Raven, and probably his other council members and the current heroes?
* Come to think of it, did Ozpin not tell Hazel that Salem is an OmnicidalManiac (albeit one with different methods and motivations) back when Hazel was on his side, like he seemingly told Qrow, Raven, and probably his other council members and the current heroes?
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*** Details are indeed sketchy, but he almost certainly had some greater knowledge of events than the public even before meeting Salem, given his sister's death (unremarkable in Remnant) somehow lead to a confrontation with Salem and and "we're fighting a being who wants to destroy the world" is pretty much the lede of Ozpin's entire secret society and mission that anyone even remotely in the know would learn first.
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*** Details are indeed sketchy, but he almost certainly had some greater knowledge of events than the public even before meeting Salem, given his sister's death (unremarkable in Remnant) somehow lead to a confrontation with Salem her and and "we're fighting a being who wants to destroy the world" is pretty much the lede of Ozpin's entire secret society and mission that anyone even remotely in the know would learn first.
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*** Details are indeed sketchy, but he almost certainly had some greater knowledge of events than the public even before meeting Salem, given his sister's death (unremarkable in Remnant) somehow lead to a confrontation with Salem and and "we're fighting a being who wants to destroy the world" is pretty much the lede of Ozpin's entire secret society and mission that anyone even remotely in the know would learn first.
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**I personally never got the impression that Hazel ever worked directly for Ozpin, for one.
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Changed line(s) 597 (click to see context) from:
* So did Tyrian just never mention the fact that Salem wants to destroy the world before despite how freely he offers that information when Emerald and Mercury are discussing it in volume eight? I mean I could see the rest of the group being used to disregarding a lot of what he says because he’s insane, but Hazel never even mentions having heard that before when Oscar brings it up.
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* So did Tyrian just never mention the fact that Salem wants to destroy the world before despite how freely he offers that information when Emerald and Mercury are discussing it in volume eight? I mean I could see the rest of the group being used to disregarding a lot of what he says because he’s insane, but Hazel never even mentions having heard that before when Oscar brings it up. Come to think of it, did Ozpin not tell Hazel that Salem is an OmnicidalManiac (albeit one with different methods and motivations) back when Hazel was on his side, like he seemingly told Qrow, Raven, and probably his other council members and the current heroes?
** The simple answer is probably a form of OffscreenInertia; Emerald and Mercury discussed their motivations for seemingly the first time in Vol 6 despite having worked and lived together for years by that point. Likewise, since they were never shown discussing their motivations with Tyrian (or with Tyrian in earshot), it didn't happen in-universe until it was shown.
** Even if they could brush Tyrian off, the mere introduction of the idea that Salem might want to destroy the world should probably be enough to get them to question their loyalties, considering A. If Salem told Tyrian this, it means she lies to her followers, so how to they know she'd not lying to them? and B. From their POV, there'd be an awful lot of evidence backing Tyrian's claim: They know nothing about Salem's origins, which means next to no theory (she's the God of Darkness, she's an alien, she's the grimm parody of humanity in the same way most grimm are twisted parodies of other animals, and just got immortality instead of multiple incarnations) could be ruled out, but do know she looks like a Grimm, controls Grimm, and all their efforts so far, besides getting the relics, have been focused on destruction of people and infrastructure i.e. the things they will supposedly rule over once they're done, with no actual power-building.
** The simple answer is probably a form of OffscreenInertia; Emerald and Mercury discussed their motivations for seemingly the first time in Vol 6 despite having worked and lived together for years by that point. Likewise, since they were never shown discussing their motivations with Tyrian (or with Tyrian in earshot), it didn't happen in-universe until it was shown.
** Even if they could brush Tyrian off, the mere introduction of the idea that Salem might want to destroy the world should probably be enough to get them to question their loyalties, considering A. If Salem told Tyrian this, it means she lies to her followers, so how to they know she'd not lying to them? and B. From their POV, there'd be an awful lot of evidence backing Tyrian's claim: They know nothing about Salem's origins, which means next to no theory (she's the God of Darkness, she's an alien, she's the grimm parody of humanity in the same way most grimm are twisted parodies of other animals, and just got immortality instead of multiple incarnations) could be ruled out, but do know she looks like a Grimm, controls Grimm, and all their efforts so far, besides getting the relics, have been focused on destruction of people and infrastructure i.e. the things they will supposedly rule over once they're done, with no actual power-building.
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[[folder: Hazel and Tyrian]]
* So did Tyrian just never mention the fact that Salem wants to destroy the world before despite how freely he offers that information when Emerald and Mercury are discussing it in volume eight? I mean I could see the rest of the group being used to disregarding a lot of what he says because he’s insane, but Hazel never even mentions having heard that before when Oscar brings it up.
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* So did Tyrian just never mention the fact that Salem wants to destroy the world before despite how freely he offers that information when Emerald and Mercury are discussing it in volume eight? I mean I could see the rest of the group being used to disregarding a lot of what he says because he’s insane, but Hazel never even mentions having heard that before when Oscar brings it up.
[[/folder]]
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* Assuming Ozpin is trying to unify humanity to complete his given quest and not for its own sake... why? All the gods promised would happen if he did so and summoned them is that they would return and live among humanity again. But Ozpin should know that life with the gods (and magic, which they didn't promise to restore), wasn't utopia, or else it wouldn't have needed a hero like him (Grimm were already a thing, so were incurable diseases and wars). Creation would sometimes grant humans wishes, but never anything monumental, and Destruction has proven fully willing and able to destroy humanity on a whim. Why would Ozpin want to complete their task if it's possible rewards as so meager, and it means humanity would live with such a threat hanging over them for the rest of eternity? Was he just raised to be religiously devoted to the Gods as a child?
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* Assuming Ozpin is trying to unify humanity to complete his given quest and not for its own sake... why? All the gods promised would happen if he did so and summoned them is that they would return and live among humanity again. But Ozpin should know that life with the gods (and magic, which they implied they would, but didn't promise to restore), wasn't utopia, or else it wouldn't have needed a hero like him (Grimm were already a thing, so were incurable diseases and wars). Creation would sometimes grant humans wishes, but never anything monumental, and Destruction has proven fully willing and able to destroy humanity on a whim. Why would Ozpin want to complete their task if it's possible rewards as so meager, and it means humanity would live with such a threat hanging over them for the rest of eternity? Was he just raised to be religiously devoted to the Gods as a child?
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** It's possible that the time before humanity's decimation was ''meant'' to be a GoldenAge of sorts - everyone having magic and having gods around to give favors or advice sounds pretty sweet on paper, especially if you're religious - but the number of flaws that had to exist in the world for the story to happen added up until it no longer seemed that way.
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** It's possible that the time before humanity's decimation was ''meant'' to be a GoldenAge of sorts - everyone having magic and having gods around to give favors or advice sounds pretty sweet on paper, especially if you're religious - religious. GoL does say that without their presence, humanity will be a fraction of what it once was, and that upon their return "humanity will be made whole again," which most likely refers to magic, but could mean some other benefit the old world had over Remnant. But the number of flaws that had to exist in the world for the story to happen added up until it no longer seemed that way.
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** One potentially important detail is that the GoL never technically said humanity needed to be united, just not fighting amongst themselves and having put aside their differences. Jinn says Ozpin sees his mission as uniting humanity, but that could just be shorthand for the actually stated objective. This might explain why Ozpin didn't make himself King after the great war and has since focused on more realistic methods to lasting world peace (monarchies tend to have succession crises), but also means that he's even closer to victory that initially believed, since there's been 80 years of lasting peace and fanaus discrimination is probably his only roadblock besides Salem.
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*** The question isn't "why hasn't he summoned the Gods yet?" (even without those examples, four different countries doesn't scream "unity.") It's "what is current goal?" What was meant by bringing up his chance to become king of the world was that putting all people under one flag would count as unity by some definitions, and him getting such a chance proves he is really god at controlling Remnant's politics, and the fact that he didn't summon the gods then suggests he expects to see an even more unified humanity in the future. Ergo, Salem isn't an insurmountable obstacle to unifying humanity, which is, itself, possible. And while the gods didn't give specific criterea for what "unified" entails, and Fanaus discrimination should hopefully (and could feasibly) be gotten rid of if one wants the world as unified as possible - not just politically unified and no major conflicts - before summoning the gods, presumably a few bandit tribes and criminal gangs existing aren't enough to make humanity fail the challenge; even if the Gods are unreasonable enough to think that its possible to get rid of them entirely, Ozpin should know it isn't, and clearly doesn't consider regular crime a problem he must solve first, or else he'd see his task as impossible and have given up.
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*** The question isn't "why hasn't he summoned the Gods yet?" (even without those examples, four different countries doesn't scream "unity.") It's "what is current goal?" What was meant by bringing up his chance to become king of the world was that putting all people under one flag would count as unity by some definitions, and him getting such a chance proves he is really god good at controlling Remnant's politics, and the fact that he didn't summon the gods then suggests he expects to see an even more unified humanity in the future. Ergo, Salem isn't an insurmountable obstacle to unifying humanity, which is, itself, possible. And while the gods didn't give specific criterea for what "unified" entails, and Fanaus discrimination should hopefully (and could feasibly) be gotten rid of if one wants the world as unified as possible - not just politically unified and no major conflicts - before summoning the gods, presumably a few bandit tribes and criminal gangs existing aren't enough to make humanity fail the challenge; even if the Gods are unreasonable enough to think that its possible to get rid of them entirely, Ozpin should know it isn't, and clearly doesn't consider regular crime a problem he must solve first, or else he'd see his task as impossible and have given up.
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*** The question isn't "why hasn't he summoned the Gods yet?" (even without those examples, four different countries doesn't scream "unity.") It's "what is current goal?" What was meant by bringing up his chance to become king of the world was that putting all people under one flag would count as unity by some definitions, and him getting such a chance proves he is really god at controlling Remnant's politics, and the fact that he didn't summon the gods then suggests he expects to see an even more unified humanity in the future. Ergo, Salem isn't an insurmountable obstacle to unifying humanity, which is, itself, possible. And while the gods didn't give specific criterea for what "unified" entails, and Fanaus discrimination should hopefully (and could feasibly) be gotten rid of if one wants the world as unified as possible - not just politically unified and no major conflicts - before summoning the gods, presumably a few bandit tribes and criminal gangs existing aren't enough to make humanity fail the challenge; even if the Gods are unreasonable enough to think that its possible to get rid of them entirely, Ozpin should know it isn't, and clearly doesn't consider regular crime a problem he must solve first, or else he'd see his task as impossible and have given up.
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** Well for one thing there are still issues like discrimination against the Faunus (and the White Fang and their actions by extension) and criminals like Roman, Neo and the Branwens.
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** Well for one thing there are still issues like discrimination against the Faunus (and the White Fang and their actions by extension) and criminals like Roman, Neo and the Branwens.Branwens, so humans are still fighting amongst themselves (the fact that that wasn’t why the gods actually left notwithstanding).
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**Well for one thing there are still issues like discrimination against the Faunus (and the White Fang and their actions by extension) and criminals like Roman, Neo and the Branwens.
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[[folder: Ozpin's "No Plan"]]
* Leading on from a question above, what's Ozpin's goal, or rather, strategy? From the flashbacks, we learned he decided to unify humanity, then summon the Gods to complete his given task. When Salem broke bad, he decided that Salem had to die for humanity to ever be unified. Then Jinn told him killing Salem was impossible. Now, in the present, he says he has no plan to defeat Salem. Does this mean he only has a goal of "unify humanity and summon the gods, after which, they will presumably kill Salem themselves, or she'll at least be no longer a threat since humanity's worthiness is no longer in question?" That is a plan insomuch as it is a a strategy, and he has [[StrategyVersusTactics tactics]] to complete it as well (the maiden vaults, his secret society, tech like the CCT), so he ''does'' have a plan. Or does he mean he sees things as at a perpetual stalemate, since unifying humanity without killing Salem is impossible and Salem is impossible to kill? If so, why would he still believe the former premise, given the backstory showed he's competent enough at manipulating Remnant's politics and thwarting Salem's efforts that he as able to pass up a potential opportunity to unify humanity by becoming king after the Great War, and there's been 80 years of relative peace (maintained, against Salem, only by his tiny secret society) since then?
[[/folder]]
* Leading on from a question above, what's Ozpin's goal, or rather, strategy? From the flashbacks, we learned he decided to unify humanity, then summon the Gods to complete his given task. When Salem broke bad, he decided that Salem had to die for humanity to ever be unified. Then Jinn told him killing Salem was impossible. Now, in the present, he says he has no plan to defeat Salem. Does this mean he only has a goal of "unify humanity and summon the gods, after which, they will presumably kill Salem themselves, or she'll at least be no longer a threat since humanity's worthiness is no longer in question?" That is a plan insomuch as it is a a strategy, and he has [[StrategyVersusTactics tactics]] to complete it as well (the maiden vaults, his secret society, tech like the CCT), so he ''does'' have a plan. Or does he mean he sees things as at a perpetual stalemate, since unifying humanity without killing Salem is impossible and Salem is impossible to kill? If so, why would he still believe the former premise, given the backstory showed he's competent enough at manipulating Remnant's politics and thwarting Salem's efforts that he as able to pass up a potential opportunity to unify humanity by becoming king after the Great War, and there's been 80 years of relative peace (maintained, against Salem, only by his tiny secret society) since then?
[[/folder]]
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Changed line(s) 524 (click to see context) from:
* Assuming Ozpin is trying to unify humanity to complete his given quest and not for its own sake... why? All the gods promised would happen if he did so and summoned them is that they would return and live among humanity again. But Ozpin should know that life with the gods (and magic, which they didn't promise to restore), wasn't utopia, or else it wouldn't have needed a hero like him (Grimm were already a thing, so were incurable diseases and wars). Creation would sometimes grant humans wishes, but never anything monumental, and Destruction has proven fully willing and able to destroy humanity on a whim. Why would Ozpin want to complete their task if it's possible rewards as so meager, and it means humanity would live with such a threat hanging over them for the rest of eternity? [[SecretlySelfish Does he just want to finally die, and not care what happens afterwards?]]
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* Assuming Ozpin is trying to unify humanity to complete his given quest and not for its own sake... why? All the gods promised would happen if he did so and summoned them is that they would return and live among humanity again. But Ozpin should know that life with the gods (and magic, which they didn't promise to restore), wasn't utopia, or else it wouldn't have needed a hero like him (Grimm were already a thing, so were incurable diseases and wars). Creation would sometimes grant humans wishes, but never anything monumental, and Destruction has proven fully willing and able to destroy humanity on a whim. Why would Ozpin want to complete their task if it's possible rewards as so meager, and it means humanity would live with such a threat hanging over them for the rest of eternity? [[SecretlySelfish Does Was he just want raised to finally die, and not care what happens afterwards?]]be religiously devoted to the Gods as a child?
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** Fair enough. But whether having Salem around is any worse than having the Gods around largely depends on the assumption Salem really is invincible and will keep fighting for eternity (see above or JustEatGilligan), and that the Gods are any more predictable or easier to please than Salem is to keep at bay. Also, didn't the flashbacks imply that Ozpin's original plan was to unify humanity with Salem's help i.e. he decided on the objective before Salem was an issue?
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** Fair enough. But whether having Salem around is any worse than having the Gods around largely depends on the assumption Salem really is invincible and will keep fighting for eternity (see above or JustEatGilligan), above), and that the Gods are any more predictable or easier to please than Salem is to keep at bay. Also, didn't the flashbacks imply that Ozpin's original plan was to unify humanity with Salem's help i.e. he decided on the objective before Salem was an issue?
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*** As for the ExactWords issue; Jinn also told Cinder exactly what she wanted to know when Cinder asked about what RWBY's planned; she didn't show them a past plan or one step of their larger plan. Not a huge sample size, sure, but in two out of three cases Jinn has been a BenevolentGenie despite the questions being vague enough to invite innumerable unhelpful or misleading answers, one is inconclusive, so she's not being written as a LiteralGenie. And even within the ExactWords, Ozpin could convince the gods to remove Salem's curse, then destroy her himself.
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*** As for the ExactWords issue; Jinn also told Cinder exactly what she wanted to know when Cinder asked about what RWBY's planned; she didn't show them a past plan or one step of their larger plan. Not a huge sample size, sure, but in two out of three cases Jinn has been a BenevolentGenie despite the questions being vague enough to invite innumerable unhelpful or misleading answers, one is inconclusive, so she's not being written as a LiteralGenie.LiteralGenie (or rather, JackassGenie as she would have to be to give such a misleading answer, given doing something and doing something alone are two very different concepts.) Not to mention, we see Ozpin asked Jinn many questions over the centuries, and while we don't see the answers, Ozpin did, and would presumably know exactly how Jinn worked, and wouldn't have asked such a narrowly-worded question if there was a chance Jinn would interpret it poorly. And even within the ExactWords, Ozpin could convince the gods to remove Salem's curse, then destroy her himself.
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* For that matter, why didn't the heroes make more use of the Lamp while they had it? They could have used it to learn who was (Watts) and wasn't (Ironwood) in league with Salem or what the bad guys plans were. Each answer would only be 100% accurate up to it's point of statement, but that still provides a wealth of information, and Salem doesn't seem to change her plans without some major success or failure. And yes, they have limited uses for the lamp, but this is clearly a crisis situation where such intel could prove the difference between defeat and victory, and Qrow, at the very least, should understand that "use em or lose em" applies in such a situation. Plus, if they do use up all the lamp's questions, it getting stolen (as they knew was a real possibility) is significantly less of a problem.
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*** We know Ozpin wants to summon the Gods from Jinn's visions, but only after humanity is unified (the problem is, as stated, that's no garuntee of things improving). The current group of heroes haven't discussed the issue one way or another, so we don't know their thoughts on the matter, but they still might have accepted Ozpin's overarching goal, and not just summoned the Gods yet because humanity isn't yet unified and they've only ever had access to, at most, two relics at a time. And if RWBY and the others don't want the gods to ever be summoned but Ozpin does, then they have a serious problem, because no matter how much they may rebel, Ozpin, being the only immortal, has the final say on the issue.
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*** We know Ozpin wants to summon the Gods from Jinn's visions, but only after humanity is unified (the problem is, as stated, that's no garuntee guarantee of things improving). The current group of heroes haven't discussed the issue one way or another, so we don't know their thoughts on the matter, but they still might have accepted Ozpin's overarching goal, and not just summoned the Gods yet because humanity isn't yet unified and they've only ever had access to, at most, two relics at a time. And if RWBY and the others don't want the gods to ever be summoned but Ozpin does, then they have a serious problem, because no matter how much they may rebel, Ozpin, being the only immortal, has the final say on the issue.
** It's possible that the time before humanity's decimation was ''meant'' to be a GoldenAge of sorts - everyone having magic and having gods around to give favors or advice sounds pretty sweet on paper, especially if you're religious - but the number of flaws that had to exist in the world for the story to happen added up until it no longer seemed that way.
** It's possible that the time before humanity's decimation was ''meant'' to be a GoldenAge of sorts - everyone having magic and having gods around to give favors or advice sounds pretty sweet on paper, especially if you're religious - but the number of flaws that had to exist in the world for the story to happen added up until it no longer seemed that way.
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** For that matter, given we know Salem can be incapacitated for a few hours by conventional damage, why not ask Ironwood to tell the Altas corps of engineers to build some device that will reduce a captured Salem to atoms every 30 or so minutes? Such a system would probably require constant monitoring, occasional maintenance, and the use of finite resources (though maybe using the Relic of Creation's unlimited energy would save Dust), and still wouldn't be foolproof, but the same could be said of other creations like a floating city, the Maiden Vaults, and the CCT system that Ozpin has no problem trusting in his mission (all only need to work long enough for Ozpin to complete his task of unifying humanity. And if finding Salem is the issue, you have the Relic of Knowledge.)
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[[Folder: Neo’s Powerup]]
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