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Changed line(s) 137 (click to see context) from:
*** It's the definition because Madoka wished to erase all the witches, not to change their nature. ''If'' real witches were to circumvent Madoka's law and return, then they would have to obey the same rules as they did in the old world, because, as you said, they're just being removed from the world before forming, which means their ''hypothetical'' existences haven't changed in how they work. Nothing about the Law of Cycles would make the Witch transformation ''in general'' go from an irreversible process to a reversible one. The difference between Homura and Sayaka/Nagisa is that Homura's was a case of someone trying to resurrect a real Witch, which is impossible, ergo she only underwent the weird half-transformation that didn't match what the Incubators were looking for and that she was able to come back from. Sayaka and Nagisa can freely use their Witch forms because, being long-dead spirits given material form, they aren't ''actually'' magical girls ''or'' Witches anymore - and as we saw, the transformation/summons is done at will, Oktavia and Charlotte aren't born from curses/Grief Seeds the way Witches are supposed to be.
to:
*** It's the definition because Madoka wished to erase all the witches, not to change their nature. ''If'' real witches were to circumvent Madoka's law and return, then they would have to obey the same rules as they did in the old world, because, as you said, they're just being removed from the world before forming, which means their ''hypothetical'' existences haven't changed in how they work. Nothing about the Law of Cycles would make the Witch transformation ''in general'' go from an irreversible process to a reversible one. The difference between Homura and Sayaka/Nagisa is that Homura's was a case of someone trying to resurrect a real Witch, which is impossible, ergo she only underwent the weird half-transformation that didn't match what the Incubators were looking for and that she was able to come back from. Sayaka and Nagisa can freely use their Witch forms because, being long-dead spirits given material form, they aren't ''actually'' magical girls ''or'' Witches anymore - and as we saw, the transformation/summons is done at will, Oktavia and Charlotte aren't born from curses/Grief Seeds curses the way Witches are supposed to be.
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Changed line(s) 137 (click to see context) from:
*** It's the definition because Madoka wished to erase all the witches, not to change their nature. ''If'' real witches were to circumvent Madoka's law and return, then they would have to obey the same rules as they did in the old world, because, as you said, they're just being removed from the world before forming, which means their ''hypothetical'' existences haven't changed in how they work. Nothing about the Law of Cycles would make the Witch transformation ''in general'' go from an irreversible process to a reversible one. The difference between Homura and Sayaka/Nagisa is that Homura's was a case of someone trying to resurrect a real Witch, which is impossible, ergo she only underwent the weird half-transformation that didn't match what the Incubators were looking for and that she was able to come back from. Sayaka and Nagisa can freely use their Witch forms because, being long-dead spirits given material form, they aren't ''actually'' magical girls ''or'' Witches anymore.
to:
*** It's the definition because Madoka wished to erase all the witches, not to change their nature. ''If'' real witches were to circumvent Madoka's law and return, then they would have to obey the same rules as they did in the old world, because, as you said, they're just being removed from the world before forming, which means their ''hypothetical'' existences haven't changed in how they work. Nothing about the Law of Cycles would make the Witch transformation ''in general'' go from an irreversible process to a reversible one. The difference between Homura and Sayaka/Nagisa is that Homura's was a case of someone trying to resurrect a real Witch, which is impossible, ergo she only underwent the weird half-transformation that didn't match what the Incubators were looking for and that she was able to come back from. Sayaka and Nagisa can freely use their Witch forms because, being long-dead spirits given material form, they aren't ''actually'' magical girls ''or'' Witches anymore.anymore - and as we saw, the transformation/summons is done at will, Oktavia and Charlotte aren't born from curses/Grief Seeds the way Witches are supposed to be.
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Changed line(s) 137 (click to see context) from:
*** It's the definition because Madoka wished to erase all the witches, not to change their nature. ''If'' real witches were to circumvent Madoka's law and return, then they would have to obey the same rules as they did in the old world, because, as you said, they're just being removed from the world before forming, which means their ''hypothetical'' existences haven't changed in how they work.
to:
*** It's the definition because Madoka wished to erase all the witches, not to change their nature. ''If'' real witches were to circumvent Madoka's law and return, then they would have to obey the same rules as they did in the old world, because, as you said, they're just being removed from the world before forming, which means their ''hypothetical'' existences haven't changed in how they work. Nothing about the Law of Cycles would make the Witch transformation ''in general'' go from an irreversible process to a reversible one. The difference between Homura and Sayaka/Nagisa is that Homura's was a case of someone trying to resurrect a real Witch, which is impossible, ergo she only underwent the weird half-transformation that didn't match what the Incubators were looking for and that she was able to come back from. Sayaka and Nagisa can freely use their Witch forms because, being long-dead spirits given material form, they aren't ''actually'' magical girls ''or'' Witches anymore.
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**** It's the definition because Madoka wished to erase all the witches, not to change their nature. ''If'' real witches were to circumvent Madoka's law and return, then they would have to obey the same rules as they did in the old world, because, as you said, they're just being removed from the world before forming, which means their ''hypothetical'' existences haven't changed in how they work.
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Changed line(s) 130 (click to see context) from:
*** The problem here is that the witches connected to the Law of Cycles function very, very, very differently from the witches we knew in the series, to the point that they really can't be treated as the same thing. Sayaka ''is'' Oktavia, in theory, but instead of transforming into it, she summons its image as a guardian. Oktavia doesn't come from or have a Grief Seed the way literally all real witches are supposed to, and we know this because Sayaka's soul gem remains intact the whole way through and because we never see even the image of an Oktavia Grief Seed during her summon process. Witches are insane and mostly independent, yet Oktavia is obviously capable of following directions and complicated orders, which implies either some sort of rational mind or that she's indeed just an extension of Sayaka, but even so Sayaka herself also retains her faculties. There isn't even anything to suggest that Oktavia is fuelled by despair or curses this time around. All the empirical evidence indicates that ''Rebellion'' Oktavia doesn't fit the definition of a witch that the Incubators cared about resurrecting.
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*** The problem here is that the witches connected to the Law of Cycles function very, very, very differently from the witches we knew in the series, to the point that they really can't be treated as the same thing. Sayaka ''is'' Oktavia, in theory, but instead of transforming into it, she summons its image as a guardian. Oktavia doesn't come from or have a Grief Seed the way literally all real witches are supposed to, and we know this because Sayaka's soul gem remains intact the whole way through and because we never see even the image of an Oktavia Grief Seed during her summon process. Witches are insane and mostly independent, yet Oktavia is obviously capable of following directions and complicated orders, which implies either some sort of rational mind or that she's indeed just an extension of Sayaka, but even so Sayaka herself also retains her faculties. There isn't even anything to suggest that Oktavia is fuelled by despair or curses this time around. All the empirical evidence indicates that ''Rebellion'' Oktavia doesn't fit the definition of a witch that the Incubators cared about resurrecting. But even if we put all of that aside, it's contextually extremely obvious that Homura wasn't the one who engineered Oktavia's appearance in that scene, seeing as how Sayaka wasn't even supposed to remember anything, and again, Homura explicitly ''told'' Sayaka that she didn't dismantle the Law entirely.
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**** The problem here is that the witches connected to the Law of Cycles function very, very, very differently from the witches we knew in the series, to the point that they really can't be treated as the same thing. Sayaka ''is'' Oktavia, in theory, but instead of transforming into it, she summons its image as a guardian. Oktavia doesn't come from or have a Grief Seed the way literally all real witches are supposed to, and we know this because Sayaka's soul gem remains intact the whole way through and because we never see even the image of an Oktavia Grief Seed during her summon process. Witches are insane and mostly independent, yet Oktavia is obviously capable of following directions and complicated orders, which implies either some sort of rational mind or that she's indeed just an extension of Sayaka, but even so Sayaka herself also retains her faculties. There isn't even anything to suggest that Oktavia is fuelled by despair or curses this time around. All the empirical evidence indicates that ''Rebellion'' Oktavia doesn't fit the definition of a witch that the Incubators cared about resurrecting.
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Changed line(s) 138 (click to see context) from:
*** There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting Madoka A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future Madoka A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting Madoka B," and Goddess Madoka "Future Madoka B". \\
to:
*** If Homura doesn't have sufficient justification to think what she thinks about Madoka, and does have sufficient evidence that Homura's in the wrong, and yet Homura continues to act on the basis of that false premise anyway, then Homura is still culpable. There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting Madoka A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future Madoka A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting Madoka B," and Goddess Madoka "Future Madoka B". \\
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Changed line(s) 138 (click to see context) from:
*** There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future-Madoka-A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-B," and Goddess Madoka "Future-Madoka-B". \\
to:
*** There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-A", "Requesting Madoka A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future-Madoka-A," "Future Madoka A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-B," "Requesting Madoka B," and Goddess Madoka "Future-Madoka-B"."Future Madoka B". \\
Changed line(s) 140 (click to see context) from:
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved. \\
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Changed line(s) 142 (click to see context) from:
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well. \\
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In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B Requesting Madoka B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Future Madoka B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B Requesting Madoka B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), Madoka B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's Requesting Madoka B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, Future Madoka B, even if Future-Madoka-B Future Madoka B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well. \\
Changed line(s) 144,145 (click to see context) from:
However, here is the difference. Both Requesting Madoka A and Future-Madoka-A can both provide consent, but between the two, Requesting-
Madoka-A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity. \\
Madoka-A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity. \\
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However, here is the difference. Both Requesting Madoka A and Future-Madoka-A can both provide consent, but between the two, Requesting-
Madoka-ARequesting Madoka A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A Requesting Madoka A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A Future Madoka A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's Requesting Madoka A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's Future Madoka A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity. \\
Madoka-A
Changed line(s) 147 (click to see context) from:
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened. \\
to:
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B Requesting Madoka B and Future-Madoka-B Future Madoka B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B ''Future'' Madoka B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B Future Madoka B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B Requesting Madoka B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B Future Madoka B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B Requesting Madoka B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B Future Madoka B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B Requesting Madoka B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened. \\
Changed line(s) 149 (click to see context) from:
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself. \\
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Changed line(s) 144 (click to see context) from:
However, here is the difference. RequestingMadoka-A and Future-Madoka-A can both provide consent, but between the two, Requesting-
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However, here is the difference. RequestingMadoka-A Both Requesting Madoka A and Future-Madoka-A can both provide consent, but between the two, Requesting-
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Changed line(s) 144 (click to see context) from:
However, here is the difference. Requesting-Madoka-A and Future-Madoka-A can both provide consent, but between the two, Requesting-
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However, here is the difference. Requesting-Madoka-A RequestingMadoka-A and Future-Madoka-A can both provide consent, but between the two, Requesting-
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Changed line(s) 138,143 (click to see context) from:
*** There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future-Madoka-A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-B," and Goddess Madoka "Future-Madoka-B". //
//
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved.//
//
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well.//
//
//
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved.//
//
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well.//
//
to:
*** There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future-Madoka-A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-B," and Goddess Madoka "Future-Madoka-B". //\n//\n \\
\\
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved.//
//
\\
\\
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well.//
// \\
\\
\\
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved.
//
\\
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well.
//
\\
Changed line(s) 145,150 (click to see context) from:
Madoka-A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity.//
//
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened. //
//
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself.//
//
//
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened. //
//
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself.//
//
to:
Madoka-A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity.//
//
\\
\\
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened.//
//
\\
\\
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself.//
// \\
\\
//
\\
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened.
//
\\
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself.
//
\\
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Changed line(s) 138,143 (click to see context) from:
*** There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future-Madoka-A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-B," and Goddess Madoka "Future-Madoka-B".
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved.
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well.
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved.
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well.
to:
*** There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future-Madoka-A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-B," and Goddess Madoka "Future-Madoka-B". \n\n //
//
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to besaved.
saved.//
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In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each otherwell.
well.//
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Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be
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In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other
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Madoka-A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity.
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened.
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself.
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened.
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself.
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Madoka-A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity.
capacity.//
//
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened. \n\n //
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Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision forherself.
herself.//
//
//
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened.
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Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for
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**** There is a difference between Homura in the series and Homura now. Let's look at it this way. Call TL3 Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-A", TL4/5/etc Madoka "Future-Madoka-A," amnesiac flower field Madoka "Requesting-Madoka-B," and Goddess Madoka "Future-Madoka-B".
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved.
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well.
However, here is the difference. Requesting-Madoka-A and Future-Madoka-A can both provide consent, but between the two, Requesting-
Madoka-A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity.
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened.
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself.
Requesting-Madoka-A asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-A. Then, Requesting-Madoka-A disappears, and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-A's consent to save Future-Madoka-A, even if Future-Madoka-A herself never asked to be saved.
In ''Rebellion'', it's similar. Requesting-Madoka-B asked Homura to save Future-Madoka-B. Then, Requesting-Madoka-B disappears (by gaining her memory back and becoming Future Madoka-B), and Homura has Requesting-Madoka-B's consent to save Future-Madoka-B, even if Future-Madoka-B herself never asked to be saved. So far, the situations parallel each other well.
However, here is the difference. Requesting-Madoka-A and Future-Madoka-A can both provide consent, but between the two, Requesting-
Madoka-A is the only one able to provide ''informed'' consent. Requesting-Madoka-A knows the consequences of being a magical girl, Future-Madoka-A doesn't. Even ignoring Homura's own desires, it's completely morally rational that Homura is prioritizing Requesting-Madoka-A's wants over Future-Madoka-A's - especially because she clearly does, to an extent, view the different timeline versions of Madoka as being the same person. In her eyes, it wouldn't be one Madoka giving permission for another so much as one Madoka who's giving permission in her best available judgment-making capacity.
In ''Rebellion'', however, the situation is reversed. Requesting-Madoka-B and Future-Madoka-B can both provide consent, but '''this time''' between the two, ''Future''-Madoka-B is the one able to provide '''informed''' consent. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what the Incubators want and what their capabilities are and what tools she has at her disposal for fighting them, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B has a clear understanding of what being the Law of Cycles means in general, Requesting-Madoka-B doesn't. Future-Madoka-B didn't know what procedure would be required to remove herself from the Law, I guess, in that she didn't know it could be done at all, but she still was in a position to deduce more about that hypothetical process than Requesting-Madoka-B could, given that she was able to warn Homura that she would be torn apart moments before it actually happened.
Future-Madoka-B is the one most qualified to decide here, because she is the only person who might actually have all of the necessary information to choose correctly - not Requesting-Madoka-B and not Homura. Homura knows this, because she knows that Future-Madoka-B is a goddess who sees all timelines. (For bonus points, Homura probably wasn't in a state to hear Sayaka explain the truth about Madoka's memories, which means that as far as Homura still knows, Requesting-Madoka-B was brainwashed by Homura herself.) ''That'' is why Homura's actions here are worse than what she did in the show, because ''this time'', the person she forced her will upon had every ability to make a rational decision for herself.
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*** Er, no. "The best thing in a bad situation" is not necessarily the right or morally correct thing to do, no one said it was. There is a ''huge' difference between saying someone did a good thing and not judging someone for doing something bad when you're aware of their reasoning, and there is an even bigger difference between saying that someone did a morally, ethically-correct thing and recognizing that even morally, ethically-wrong actions can have positive results as well as negative ones. You can pretty much sum up the plot of the movie, including the parts where even Homura acknowledges she did the wrong thing, as "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". No one is saying that what she did was right, only that ''from her flawed and selfish perceptions and the overarching plot of the franchise'', what she did is ''understandable and has narrative purpose''. That's it.
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*** Er, no. "The best thing in a bad situation" is not necessarily the right or morally correct thing to do, no one said it was. There is a ''huge' ''huge'' difference between saying someone did a good thing and not judging someone for doing something bad when you're aware of their reasoning, and there is an even bigger difference between saying that someone did a morally, ethically-correct thing and recognizing that even morally, ethically-wrong actions can have positive results as well as negative ones. You can pretty much sum up the plot of the movie, including the parts where even Homura acknowledges she did the wrong thing, as "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". No one is saying that what she did was right, only that ''from her flawed and selfish perceptions and the overarching plot of the franchise'', what she did is ''understandable and has narrative purpose''. That's it.
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*** Your logic there is flawed. The Nightmares exist in Homulilly's barrier because, like Sayaka says (and like we see at the end), Homura ''wants'' her friends to be happy, and her idea of that is a world where she and her friends can be a fun, colorful magical girl team, fighting monsters that aren't really dangerous and saving innocent people without having to worry about magical byproducts like miasma, or wraiths, or witches. Kyubey exists inisde the barrier because he's inextricably linked to Homura's understanding of magic (and that's assuming he didn't just let himself into the barrier before he put the isolation field up, the same way you can lock yourself into a car). Nagisa is the only character who appears inside the barrier that has absolutely no reason to be there because Homura did not know she existed, and although she doesn't directly state that's why she appeared as Charlotte, that is the point of that conversation: Sayaka and Nagisa appeared and acted the way they did in order to distract Kyubey without disrupting anything until the time was right. You can argue about the specifics if you want, but all details aside, they do state their reasoning.
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*** You mean the world where Sayaka summons Octavia in broad daylight in front of Homura before Homura manipulates her memory? Yes. Witches exist. They don't manifest the way they did in the original universe, but the system that produces them still exists, and so do they. This is not a matter of debate, this is what we actually see in the show.
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*** "Kyubey has no magic" because to him, it's technology that ''he invented''. He literally creates bodies from ambient mana, and he states, very explicitly, that he uses human girls for emotional power sources because he himself does not have emotions. Your premise is that since Kyubey doesn't choose to harm himself for the universe when there are better, readily-available fuel sources, then he must be ''incapable'' of doing anything else, and that is straight-up silly when we're talking about a creature that does the things we actually see Kyubey do. Case in point: the isolation field, a form of Incubator technology that he would never need to develop ''except'' to test the Witch Universe Theory, which he develops in the time between the end of the TV series and the beginning of Rebellion, implied to be less than a full year. It's not a matter of ''magical power'', it's a matter of ''intelligence and ingenuity'', and he is in full control and understanding of the system that made any of the events of the entire franchise possible.
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*** Er, no. "The best thing in a bad situation" is not necessarily the right or morally correct thing to do, no one said it was. There is a ''huge' difference between saying someone did a good thing and not judging someone for doing something bad when you're aware of their reasoning, and there is an even bigger difference between saying that someone did a morally, ethically-correct thing and recognizing that even morally, ethically-wrong actions can have positive results as well as negative ones. You can pretty much sum up the plot of the movie, including the parts where even Homura acknowledges she did the wrong thing, as "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions". No one is saying that what she did was right, only that ''from her flawed and selfish perceptions and the overarching plot of the franchise'', what she did is ''understandable and has narrative purpose''. That's it.
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*** Why is that the definition of a Witch in the ''new'' universe? The point is that Witches, the incarnations of pain brought about by the wishes of magical girls and the byproduct of Grief Seeds, exist and can be interacted with by both Kyubey and the Law of Cycles, we see this happen, this is not up for debate. Magical Girls do not become Witches, that doesn't mean that Witches (and, more importantly, the mechanisms by which Witches are made) don't exist at all.
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**** Homura '''thinks''' that's what she's doing. She's wrong, but she '''thinks''' she's saving Madoka from a choice that she regrets because that's what she's been doing since the series began ''because Madoka asked her to do it''. ("Don't let stupid me get tricked by Kyubey."), she just doesn't have time-rewind powers anymore. Whether she's "right", in that her actions support the greater scope of the plot and have purpose in the mechanics of the setting, may be a matter of opinion, but the conclusion Homura draws in character is very clearly outlined in the movie. She ''thinks'' that Madoka does not want to be the Law of Cycles and just doesn't have the capacity to remember anything else. She has always, since the very beginning of the TV series, ''always'' acted on the premise that she knows what's best for Madoka because a ''previous, less-knowing version of Madoka that no longer exists'' told her what to do. What she does in Rebellion is absolutely no different, except the scale of powers involved is dramatically increased and rather than a previous timeline's Madoka, it's a memory-wiped Madoka. If your argument is that Homura is abusing Madoka by overriding her personal choices, then Homura was abusing Madoka the second she became a magical girl, because the motives for both of those events were exactly the same: Homura wants to protect Madoka, ''no matter what''. Homura has ''never'' had Madoka's consent for anything she's ever done, because the Madoka that ''gave'' her consent ceased to exist as soon as Homura reset the timeline. Yes, it's clear that Homura crosses a line with the Law of Cycles, but if your objection is that Homura didn't have Madoka's consent to take her out of the Law of Cycles, then you should also be objecting to everything Homura has ever done in the series... unless, of course, you think it's different if Madoka ''wants'' to be saved, which is exactly what Homura ''thinks'' Madoka wants.
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** Homura actually ''does'' give a (very vague) explanation to Kyuubey for where her powers came from (more specifically, why they took a form besides a witch), but it's somewhat nebulous and requires some effort to parse meaning out of: "Because I finally remembered. All the times I repeated history, gut hurt and suffered over and over... ''all of that was proof of my feelings for Madoka''. '''''So'' now, even pain is dear to me'''." In other words, the despair and curses that should have risen in response to Homura's original wish became like new hopes in and of themselves. Hoe and despair have to balance to zero, though, which would have in turn had to birth new curses to balance things out, but then ''those curses'' would have to contain a hopeful element and would then propagate new hopes and new curses, et cetera. The way the hope/despair system was set up is ultimately logically paradoxical against the infinite escalation Homura's emotions would have led to, because it would be impossible to achieve a proper equilibrium. To resolve it, her Gem forms a new emotion - a variable factor which can modify its own properties to forcibly balance out against wishes and curses - and from there, the other factors that have been named up to now would have artificially accelerated the process to transform Homura into a reality-ruling being.
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**** Something that might be good to note: even if everything else in Homura's world is fake, the girls she invited inside are real beings. Whatever else the Nightmares might've been, they ''did'' appear to genuinely cleanse the girls' non-imaginary Gems (only Homura's was ever indicated to be a fake, which is consistent with her no longer being a magical girl, though it's possible Madoka, Sayaka and Nagisa's Gems were fake too), which would indicate that they ''could'' have some sort of potential to effect non-imaginary change for grief harvesting if Homura chose to reproduce them in her new world. Now, this could be total crap - it might be that the Nightmares were just doing the same thing as [[spoiler: Juubey from Kazumi Magica was doing and polishing the surfaces of the Gems without actually removing the taint]], or what [[spoiler: Kyouko did in ''The Different Story'' by creating the illusion of a cleansed Gem]], but I hesitate to think that that kind of placebo effect would keep the girls in the fairly good condition we see them in for the whole month or so they were inside the barrier. Of course, the fact remains that Homura has no real reason to bring back Nightmares that we can see, and there are hints to suggest that she's rejecting the magical girl system entirely.
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*** Kyuubey wanted proof that Madoka exists. He got it. Proof that Madoka exists, whatever he may have said, ''is not enough to get rid of her'' - it's a ''potential starting point'' for getting rid of her. It's easy to say that a person can accomplish anything if given enough time, but some things ''are just impossible''. The difference between real-world physics and Madoka s a law of physics is that Madoka isn't something you can just fight against or circumvent they way you would fight gravity or buoyancy or wind resistance, she is a magically enforced logical rule that says witches ''will not be born no matter what''. What Kyuubey did was a ''workaround'' but the very fact that Homura was able to, if briefly, return to being a magical girl demonstrates that hers wasn't a true Witch conversion, which means that, again, nothing in the movie suggests that Kyuubey can ''actually'' break the Law of Cycles.
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**** Also: again, the conversation between Kyuubey, Sayaka and Madoka confirms that he ''didn't'' get all the information he wanted, because when Kyuubey tries to convince Madoka to use her powers as the Law of Cycles, Sayaka specifically stops her from doing so. Madoka doesn't appear in goddess form until ''after'' they leave the isolation field, and if you notice, the Homura-Madoka combo ''killed all of the Incubator witnesses'' immediately before. Kyuubey is present again in the "world reset zone" but that's ''after'' Homura starts reordering the world, specifically because Homura needed to have a chat with him.
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*** I think it's important to remember that ''Madoka'' might not have been in her right mind when she told Homura to stop her from becoming a magical girl. Sayaka's and Homura's examples demonstrated for us how the corruption inside a Soul Gem twists a girl's mind even before they become a witch - the second you become a magical girl, despair and magic expenditure doesn't just weaken you and bring you closer to a FateWorseThanDeath, it directly and quantifiably deteriorates your sanity without a Grief Seed to purify the taint.
Madoka made that request under duress, with the threat of Witching within minutes hanging over her, with her Soul Gem (soul) dripping with corruption, and apparently also in incredible pain from her wounds; contrast Timeline 5's decision to contract after all, where she faced arguably a roughly comparable level of trauma as Timeline 3's version but without the above factors affecting her judgment. Just as the fandom generally is willing to entertain the idea that Madoka's confession in the flower field is invalid given Homura's unwitting manipulation of the situation, we should also take TL3 Madoka's desire with a grain of salt.
This isn't to say that Homura is ''evil'' for taking Madoka seriously - it's completely understandable, and admirable. But whether or not Homura's actions are justifiable based on what she's going through doesn't necessarily come to the same answer as whether or not what she did was justifiable overall, if that makes sense.
Madoka made that request under duress, with the threat of Witching within minutes hanging over her, with her Soul Gem (soul) dripping with corruption, and apparently also in incredible pain from her wounds; contrast Timeline 5's decision to contract after all, where she faced arguably a roughly comparable level of trauma as Timeline 3's version but without the above factors affecting her judgment. Just as the fandom generally is willing to entertain the idea that Madoka's confession in the flower field is invalid given Homura's unwitting manipulation of the situation, we should also take TL3 Madoka's desire with a grain of salt.
This isn't to say that Homura is ''evil'' for taking Madoka seriously - it's completely understandable, and admirable. But whether or not Homura's actions are justifiable based on what she's going through doesn't necessarily come to the same answer as whether or not what she did was justifiable overall, if that makes sense.
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*** I think it's important to remember that ''Madoka'' might not have been in her right mind when she told Homura to stop her from becoming a magical girl. Sayaka's and Homura's examples demonstrated for us how the corruption inside a Soul Gem twists a girl's mind even before they become a witch - the second you become a magical girl, despair and magic expenditure doesn't just weaken you and bring you closer to a FateWorseThanDeath, it directly and quantifiably deteriorates your sanity without a Grief Seed to purify the taint. \n\n Madoka made that request under duress, with the threat of Witching within minutes hanging over her, with her Soul Gem (soul) dripping with corruption, and apparently also in incredible pain from her wounds; contrast Timeline 5's decision to contract after all, where she faced arguably a roughly comparable level of trauma as Timeline 3's version but without the above factors affecting her judgment. Just as the fandom generally is willing to entertain the idea that Madoka's confession in the flower field is invalid given Homura's unwitting manipulation of the situation, we should also take TL3 Madoka's desire with a grain of salt.
salt. This isn't to say that Homura is ''evil'' for taking Madoka seriously - it's completely understandable, and admirable. But whether or not Homura's actions are justifiable based on what she's going through doesn't necessarily come to the same answer as whether or not what she did was justifiable overall, if that makes sense.
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*** Wait... what? We were talking about the world Homura made ''after'' the isolation field at this point ("Homura was able to do exactly what you're saying Kyubey never could, and it's made clear that her approach can't and won't work forever because she's brute-forcing it"), where, yes, Homulilly doesn't exist, and the counterpoint I gave was debunking the idea that Homura's universe that she created contains Witches. Because, yes it doesn't. But to address the rest of this:
**** Kyuubey's system might be what caused the events of the series, but he couldn't have done any of it alone nor were the majority of the big changes things that he planned out. He's technologically capable ''enough'' that he can certainly cause ''trouble'' with the information Homura provided him, and he can give other girls the right catalysts to change fate under the correct circumstances, but by himself, Kyuubey has no magic and no ability to bend the world in a significant way. Everything reality-shaking he does is reliant on other, emotive species. But this might just be down to a difference in interpretation: I don't think we'll be able to come to a conclusion on just how much power Kyuubey has or doesn't have specifically because a) there's so much material and evidence in either direction and b) he's an alien species specifically plotted to be unfathomable.
**** As for "nobody said Homura did the right thing": this offshoot of the original Headscratcher began with the claim that Homura had no choice but to do what she did, because there was no good alternative. If you're going to claim that Homura's decisions are the only ones she could've made - the best possible in the situation, basically - then you are, in fact, claiming she did "the right thing."
**** As for "what the crap is Homulilly?!" she's a Witch in the same sense that the apparition of Candeloro in Mami's delusion during ''The Different Story'' is a witch - she's a genuine manifestation of Homura's curses, yes, but part of what defines a Witch in the series is that there's no way to return her to her original magical girl form and that she isn't conscious or capable of sane thought anymore. That Homura's able to go back to being a magical girl, and even exist inside her Witch form as a distinct being form it, proves that she was not a true Witch yet.
**** Again, no one's saying Homura did it for shits a giggles. She did a shitty thing for noble means, sure, but it doesn't change that she did something terrible to Madoka against her consent. "What Madoka wants doesn't matter?" Um, yes, when you make decisions for your loved ones, you do in fact need to take into account what they actually want if you have any kind of respect for them. Madoka wasn't suicidal or stupid for not wanting Homura to take her away from the Law of Cycles, she's risking herself for something valid in the same way that literally every magical girl ever has done, and as outlined, she's arguably much safer than most of those girls.
**** Kyuubey's system might be what caused the events of the series, but he couldn't have done any of it alone nor were the majority of the big changes things that he planned out. He's technologically capable ''enough'' that he can certainly cause ''trouble'' with the information Homura provided him, and he can give other girls the right catalysts to change fate under the correct circumstances, but by himself, Kyuubey has no magic and no ability to bend the world in a significant way. Everything reality-shaking he does is reliant on other, emotive species. But this might just be down to a difference in interpretation: I don't think we'll be able to come to a conclusion on just how much power Kyuubey has or doesn't have specifically because a) there's so much material and evidence in either direction and b) he's an alien species specifically plotted to be unfathomable.
**** As for "nobody said Homura did the right thing": this offshoot of the original Headscratcher began with the claim that Homura had no choice but to do what she did, because there was no good alternative. If you're going to claim that Homura's decisions are the only ones she could've made - the best possible in the situation, basically - then you are, in fact, claiming she did "the right thing."
**** As for "what the crap is Homulilly?!" she's a Witch in the same sense that the apparition of Candeloro in Mami's delusion during ''The Different Story'' is a witch - she's a genuine manifestation of Homura's curses, yes, but part of what defines a Witch in the series is that there's no way to return her to her original magical girl form and that she isn't conscious or capable of sane thought anymore. That Homura's able to go back to being a magical girl, and even exist inside her Witch form as a distinct being form it, proves that she was not a true Witch yet.
**** Again, no one's saying Homura did it for shits a giggles. She did a shitty thing for noble means, sure, but it doesn't change that she did something terrible to Madoka against her consent. "What Madoka wants doesn't matter?" Um, yes, when you make decisions for your loved ones, you do in fact need to take into account what they actually want if you have any kind of respect for them. Madoka wasn't suicidal or stupid for not wanting Homura to take her away from the Law of Cycles, she's risking herself for something valid in the same way that literally every magical girl ever has done, and as outlined, she's arguably much safer than most of those girls.
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*** Um, no, they don't go over that in the movie. Madoka giving Sayaka and Nagisa her memories is brought up and Sayaka and Nagisa operating covertly is too, but all this about why Nagisa specifically chose to stay in her Charlotte form the entire time is never discussed or explained - what you're saying, as much sense as it might seem to make, is just popular FanWank, and Nagisa' reasons for taking that approach aren't discussed. You could just as easily use that as evidence in the other direction to claim that Nagisa assumed her Witch form so that Homura would recognize and admit her, and staying in that form in the role Homura created for her was easier than trying to switch back to her magical girl form and integrate into the group. Why would Homura invite a Witch into her barrier? Idk, same reason she created the Nightmares or invited Kyuubey in? Homulilly wasn't above using creatures who normally would be her enemies as pawns to keep herself and her pals busy. You also have to consider that Sayaka and Nagisa, despite maintaining their individuality, effectively existed inside the Law of Cycles the same way all fallen witches did, so it stands to reason that as long as Madoka could get in, she'd be able to call upon them from within herself after the fact regardless of whether Homura knew them or not.
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**** Then what the crap do you call Homulilly?! Witches ''do exist'', they ''have always existed'' as part of the magical girl life cycle. In the Wraith universe, those witches are never born into the real world, but (as we see from Sayaka, Nagisa, and Homura) that they're still part of the magical girl as a summoned ally/alternate form type power, which is something else that Kyubey gets to see. The entire reason Kyubey is a threat (and the entire reason that telling Kyubey that Witches are a thing is a dumb move on Homura's part) is because his powers are literally limitless. He created the system that produced every single alternate universe in the series, saying that he ''can't'' do something with his own technology with enough time and effort and freedom to act is just ridiculous. It doesn't matter what Madoka ''wanted'' because what she ''wanted'' didn't factor into anything except her wish. Her wish is final, yes, it means witches can never be born into the real world, but they do still exist, ''we see them existing in the frigging movie and they exist within the soul gem in a form that Kyubey can, if he chooses to, interact with''. Everything you're saying he could never ever do, ''we see him do it'', and the only reason he doesn't ''continue'' doing it, is because Homura ''deliberately took control of the universe to stop him''. No one is saying that Homura did the right thing, the movie is literally called Rebellion because she is acting against Madoka and becomes a villain in the process, she literally calls herself ''a devil and is consumed with suicidal guilt over it'', but she didn't do it for shits and giggles.
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*** Except it does, and they explain how and why in the movie. The isolation field is not a physical world in and of itself, it's a barrier that Kyubey designed so that he would be made aware of everything coming to interact with Homura's Soul Gem. Madoka did have to go through it in order to get to the Soul Gem, but it had no power to actually keep her out. She comes in to defeat witches at the point that they're going to be born (shattering the Soul Gem before it becomes a Grief Seed), and she does succeed in defeating Homulilly. Homura does become something else, but that's where everything gets weird; before that point, it's all in line with how Madoka's wish worked.
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**** '''AGAIN:''' We know Madoka bypasses the barrier because of Nagisa, who got in because of Madoka's powers. Homura had never met Nagisa and could not possibly have invited her into the barrier, and to cover it up (because Kyubey would have known, if someone appeared in the barrier that Homura did not recognize), she has to remain in her Charlotte form, even though Homura would never actually invite a witch into her barrier, because that is what would distract Kyubey. They go over this in the movie, why is this even a question? The barrier had no meaning to Madoka at all, she and Sayaka and Nagisa were only playing along the whole time.
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** Basically, because of their conversation in the flower field, Homura thought Madoka was having a rough go of being the Law of Cycles, and that it was a much more painful fate than she'd thought it would be. So Homura pulled her back to the mortal world to free her from having to spend the rest of her life fighting alone. It's not clear either way whether being the Law of Cycles was ''actually'' that bad - and Madoka clearly didn't want Homura to do what she did, based on her reaction - but the opening narration from the Concept Movie implicitly paints Madoka's life as a goddess as being pretty bittersweet.
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** Basically, because of their conversation in the flower field, Homura thought Madoka was having a rough go of being the Law of Cycles, and that it was a much more painful fate than she'd thought it would be. So Homura pulled her back to the mortal world to free her from having to spend the rest of her life fighting alone. It's not clear either way whether being the Law of Cycles was ''actually'' that bad - and Madoka clearly didn't actually want Homura to do what she did, based on her reaction - but the opening narration from the Concept Movie implicitly paints Madoka's life as a goddess as being pretty bittersweet.
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** Because at that point, Homura didn't just want to be with Madoka. She wanted to specifically be ''protecting'' Madoka. Thus, if she had gone with Godoka, though Homura would be with her, she wouldn't ever be able to protect Madoka again. But, by doing what she did in the movie, that is, splitting Madoka from the Law of the Cycle, she brought Madoka back down to normal again. This way, Homura could now both be with Madoka AND protect her as well.
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** Because at that point, Homura didn't just want to be with Madoka. She wanted to specifically be ''protecting'' Madoka. Thus, if she had gone with Godoka, though Homura would be with her, she wouldn't ever be able to protect Madoka again. But, by doing what she did in the movie, that is, splitting Madoka from the Law of the Cycle, she brought Madoka back down to normal again. This way, Homura could now both be with Madoka AND protect her as well.well.
** Basically, because of their conversation in the flower field, Homura thought Madoka was having a rough go of being the Law of Cycles, and that it was a much more painful fate than she'd thought it would be. So Homura pulled her back to the mortal world to free her from having to spend the rest of her life fighting alone. It's not clear either way whether being the Law of Cycles was ''actually'' that bad - and Madoka clearly didn't want Homura to do what she did, based on her reaction - but the opening narration from the Concept Movie implicitly paints Madoka's life as a goddess as being pretty bittersweet.
** Basically, because of their conversation in the flower field, Homura thought Madoka was having a rough go of being the Law of Cycles, and that it was a much more painful fate than she'd thought it would be. So Homura pulled her back to the mortal world to free her from having to spend the rest of her life fighting alone. It's not clear either way whether being the Law of Cycles was ''actually'' that bad - and Madoka clearly didn't want Homura to do what she did, based on her reaction - but the opening narration from the Concept Movie implicitly paints Madoka's life as a goddess as being pretty bittersweet.
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*** But again, this is a lot of assumptions. Maybe Kyuubey can interact with a witch that doesn't break out of a Soul Gem, but is she producing energy at all comparable to what a witch that fully develops out of a Soul Gem would? If not, is whatever energy that ''is'' produced worth the energy that is presumably lost in maintaining the Isolation Field, and the energy the Incubators are losing from keeping that girl from living her life as a magical girl and harvesting Grief Cubes? Since the Incubators were not content with the situation in Homura's barrier (they even called it "running around in circles meaninglessly" - and remember, also, that Homura was partially Witched that entire time, even before she looked like one), we can infer that the answer to these questions is no. "'''The exact method is kind of ambiguous''', but Homura proves that a Soul Gem ''can'' be forced to evolve if it accumulates enough grief": Exactly. We ''don't know'' that an overload of grief is what caused Homura's ascension, it could've been the LogicBomb that came out of trying to defy the Law of Cycles in the first place, it could've quite literally be 'love' which she and others specifically identify as ''not'' the same as grief/despair/curses, it could be literally anything, but the one thing we do have confirmation of is that it was a different force than what produces witches.
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*** But again, this is a lot of assumptions. Maybe Kyuubey can interact with a witch that doesn't break out of a Soul Gem, but is she producing energy at all comparable to what a witch that fully develops out of a Soul Gem would? If not, is whatever energy that ''is'' produced worth the energy that is presumably lost in maintaining the Isolation Field, and the energy the Incubators are losing from keeping that girl from living her life as a magical girl and harvesting Grief Cubes? Since the Incubators were not content with the situation in Homura's barrier (they even called it "running around in circles meaninglessly" - and remember, also, that Homura was partially Witched that entire time, even before she looked like one), we can infer that the answer to these questions is no. probably no, because otherwise why even bother trying to control Madoka if they can just keep repeating the Isolation Field situation for the same effect? "'''The exact method is kind of ambiguous''', but Homura proves that a Soul Gem ''can'' be forced to evolve if it accumulates enough grief": Exactly. We ''don't know'' that an overload of grief is what caused Homura's ascension, it could've been the LogicBomb that came out of trying to defy the Law of Cycles in the first place, it could've quite literally be 'love' which she and others specifically identify as ''not'' the same as grief/despair/curses, it could be literally anything, but the one thing we do have confirmation of is that it was a different force than what produces witches.
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*** Maybe I'm just not understanding this response, but I'm not really sure why that's relevant. Nobody was saying that she broke the field open early, so of course it's still there. Yes, she bypassed the field, but like I said she was ''invited by Homura'' so that doesn't tell us anything about what would happen with a girl who didn't know her, because her wish doesn't guarantee her success in that regard, because until the Soul Gem is actually in danger of breaking Madoka's wish is upheld, Witch or no Witch.
