History Headscratchers / JadeEmpire

** They should have left more decisions like the one they made in the "free the family from the slavers" sidequest. I felt '''{{BAD ASS}}''' when that girl took the knife my Closed Fist hero gave her and stabbed the slaver to death with it. "You may have taught my daughter a valuable lesson." Damn RIGHT I did. Why weren't there more sidequests like that?

** Easy. First off, Master Li is GenreSavvy enough to know that [[TykeBomb Tykebombs]] can be [[DefusingTheTykebomb defused]] and that people can rebel against their mentors, so it makes more sense to not try to harness the kid directly and instead teach him basic filial piety and the tools to know right from wrong, and then [[BatmanGambit make sure that all MORAL paths lead to the Spirit Monk fighting the Emperor]] for one reason or another. Secondly, leaving the kid ignorant of his true purpose means that he doesn't make any obvious moves and plans that would tip the Emperor off to the fact that the Glorious Strategist is making a bid for the throne; instead, Li just left a trail of breadcrumbs that his well-trained and prepared student could follow, and the Emperor won't pick up on it because the kid is, as far as he, Death's Hand and Inquisitor Jia can tell, acting randomly. Third, Master Li is simply ''good'' enough to make a GambitRoulette work [[Manga/DeathNote Just As Planned!!!]]

*** Several other explanations, all possible in my eyes: 1) Li being DangerouslyGenreSavvy as he is, he could have just burned it. 2) It teleported to Dirge, so the PC was put in their original body rather than a new one. 3) It's still there, useless, possibly buried or mutilated. The real question is, other than option 2, why is the PC re-embodied at Dirge fully clothed? Where did the clothes come from?

*** Because Scholar Six Heavens really is that arrrogant/stupid.

*** That's no excuse at all. They could simply have had an alignment system with two axes similar to the law/chaos, good/evil system in NeverwinterNights. In-game actions would get you points for either of the two axes, resulting in four possible combinations of OP/CF, good/evil.

* The protagonist goes from level 1 to "way overpowered" from the moment he last sees Master Li to the moment Li kills the protagonist. During that time he trains with a bunch of different people, and acquires a thousand techniques Master Li couldn't possibly have any knowledge of. FFS, the protagonist learns how to use firearms and transform into a whole host of demons. The "fatal flaw" in the initial technique thaught to him by Master Li persists to that extent? Unlikely.

***** It does because "And a member of the imperial family ends up on the throne no matter what you do" is simply not true.

**** If you choose the evil end then Hai, Li, and probably Lian are all dead. Kin might still be around but he's a slave. The player ends up on the throne and CF Lian is optional. Dawn Star may also technically be a member of the royal family but she's also optional. The CF player could end up on the throne with CF Sky or alone.

**** If you choose the evil end then Hai, Li, and probably Lian are all dead. Kin might still be around but he's a slave. The player ends up on the throne and CF Lian is optional.

*** I think you might be misinterpreting what the Water Dragon said about the Drought. It was going to bring an end to the Empire as it was, not wipe the whole place off the map. Actualy the three years thing is always put in certain terms every time it's stated, the sages of the Jade Empire were sure that was how long. Now I admit that it's possible that the Water Dragon might lie about another realm going without water but you're not giving any reason to suspect that she's lying other than you don't like her. Which is a tad inconsistant, as she's also the only source for the matter of the Drought clearing the way for something new, a princible point in your argument. If we can't trust her word on one matter we can't do so on another. In addition to that what evidence we do have supports the idea that the Water Dragon is not in the habit of lying; while she may not always volunteer all the information she has (given how short the times she's able to communicate are) she never once lies about anything we get conformation on while literally every mortal figure of authority lies big and often. Sun Hai lies about his nature and how he ended the blight, Death's Hand and the Lotus Assissins lie almost as a job description and Sun Li...well, his lies are the main plot. So we've every reason to think she's telling the truth. As for the gods and balance being required to maintain the world, aside from the fact that the game is based on Chinese mythology (in which that is certainly the case) we have the evidence of the one known time in which a god was removed from her position and a mortal tried to step in her place; the world was overrun by angry, dangerous ghosts and the mortal in question went mad with power, setting up a nightmarish police state controlled by sadistic assassins and automata powered by the souls of the innocent. Don't get me wrong, if some spiritual beings held this position in another, differently structured setting, say DragonAge, I'd be right with you. But in the Jade Empire setting the evidence comes down hard on the side of the gods.

**** Actually there's not really anything big in the game supporting the idea of changing one's station by one's power. Sure the Spirit Monks comes from nowhere to become a dominating figure but the Spirit Monk is, well, a Spirit Monk. It ''is'' hi/her station to fix this shit. And a member of the imperial family ends up on the throne no matter what you do. The only upset you can create is removing people who are themselves breaking the rules. Sun Lian, while a decent person, has something of a blind spot when it comes to her father. She defends him despite all the evidence during the game's timeframe right up until he outright tells her what he's done. The fact that the corruption of the Lotus Order was already happening plus the genocide of the Spirit Monks (taking out the fighters is one thing but the fact that the character is the last Spirit Monkmeans the Emperor's armies killed non-combatants and ''children'' as well) heavily suggests existing corruption. As for why the gods couldn't just kill the Sun brothers, it was probably not allowed. In Chinese mythology the Emperor possessed the Mandate Of Heaven, meaning a direct strike against him was not really allowed. I don't see Li taking any measures once he's in power. Everything is as bad as it was, just a bit better organised. Your interpretation of the Open Palm ending, while not invalid, is no more valid than mine.

*** While the player is a ghost, they can see the ghostly world, kill the demons, and restore the seal. When the player is alive again, though only the spirit monks were granted rest they can't see any of the demons or ghosts of imperial soldiers wandering around except for the one isolated incident. It doesn't seem likely that without being able to connect with the spirit realm while living that the player could restore the fountains in Dirge if they weren't a ghost. They definitely couldn't get the seal back from that mysterious nameless entity. Perhaps Dawn Star could restore Dirge while alive but she'd have to do it alone and be strong enough and so it's a bit iffy. Restoring Dirge must make the Water Dragon stronger and therefore likely weaken Li because before restoring Dirge she only managed to send the player to Dirge after Hai died but before Li took control of her power and afterwards she is strong enough to bring the player back to life. And one of the first things the Water Dragon tells the player is "The amulet is a focus; it will guide you. But when you know both sides of the veil of death, ability alone will save you." She's clearly planning on you dying the whole time. If restoring Dirge was not an important part of saving her then why would the player dying be a part of the plan and not just a possible outcome?

**** You're assuming there that the forest ''could'' manage without the Forest Shadow. In fact it seems that the forest is connected to her by a FisherKing style arrangement and likely could not exist without her. And the presence of the Mother is needed to keep her around. The Mother can sealed away, sure, but it has to be there. The same holds true for Wild Flower. Chai Ka is needed to help the Spirit Monk, he needs a human host so Heaven chooses Wild Flower (who, lets not forget, would be dead and suffering a not-really-living hell as a ghost if they didn't). You imply that they stuck in Ya Zhen because they thought they should. The dialogue more implies they did it because it was literally impossible to have Chai Ka there without Ya Zhen, just as you can't have a machine work without all it's parts. They were hoping you'd choose the good guy and if you do they are then nice enough to bring Wild Flower back to life afterwards. Hardly an evil act.

<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

** He doesn't ''have'' to have any sinister motives for teaching you only two styles. He may just not want you splitting your Style Points too thinly among redundant techniques when you only ''need'' one martial, one support and one weapon style. As for magic, I imagine he didn't teach it to you because too much familiarity with magic might induce you to try to investigate the amulet, and that's the last thing he wants. Remember, he implies that Dire Flame is black magic, when that's simply not true.

As for the concept of balance it may be based on Chinese mythology but either the mythology is screwed up or Bioware's use of it is. The player doesn't have reason to believe the Gods' claims that balance in necessary because every time the player sees the implementation of this balance it's because the Gods decided to throw in that balance and the player ends up having to fix the clusterf#@! that inevitably results, when it wouldn't have ended up as such if the Gods had just left it well enough alone, the Forest Shadow and Wild Flower being the most notable examples I can think of. With the Forest Shadow the forest would have been fine without either her or the Mother around which the player can make happen and see the overall good results, and the dark half the Mother spends most of the time sealed away so it's not as if there's some constant battle between order and chaos going on anyway, while Wild Flower has to deal with an evil demon inside her that provides neither her nor Chai Ka any benefit whatsoever, spends most of Wild Flower's life suppressed, and can eventually be banished anyway, when balance is the only reason given why she couldn't just have Chai Ka by himself, so with both the lesson falls completely flat. The fact that these Gods don't even know why the Great Dragon created the Jade Empire world, where he went, or why he created it means they don't even know if the balance is what he actually wanted.

*** Manipulate, maybe, but the Water Dragon does not straight up lie. Cryptic or not everything she says that we can check on is true. I don't recall any evidence for her statements about the purpose of the Long Drought but if there was some that I missed then that really just backs up my point. The quote you provided (I can't remember the exact quote either but you're right, it's close enough) can be read as the gods trying to destroy the Empire itself or it can be read as I read it, changing the Empire into something new. Note ''their'' empire had to fall, not ''the'' empire. The word "empire" wasn't even capitalised in the subtitles. My guess is that the Empire had become so corrupt under the Sun brothers that breaking it up was the only solution and that was the purpose of the Drought. But the Sun brothers became more corrupt instead of trying to address the issue. My interpretation is rather backed up by the fact that a ressurected Water Dragon does not start up the Drought again; with the corruption that had set in in the Empire gone and the balance restored she doesn't have to. Indeed the Drought was terrible but the gods aren't mortal leaders. They control forces of nature and have to take the long view. Like I said, in another setting I'd take them to task but this is a setting that runs on big cosmic rules. I feel you are giving Sun Li far too much credit. You describing him setting out to fix Sun Hai's madness but that really doesn't fit the events. Literally seconds after victory at Dirge he tried to kill his brother to steal his power. If his aim was simply to stop the Drought what should it matter if he or his brother has the power? And then he kills a innocent man so he can steal a child and raise it on lies and emotional manipulation so that it can get him that power later. Worth noting that he begins this plan right then, before any of Hai's subsequent actions could be his motivation. And then when his plan is successful he does nothing to stop the Lotus Assassins, the golems or any of Hai's evil acts. He even re-enslaves the soul of his own brother. And then, just as an encore, he utterly rejects any love or responsibility for his own daughter. He's no hero, he's a selfish, dishonest, manipulative, near-as-damnit sociopathic meglomaniac. As for sharing out water I'd imagine that's what normally happens, some places are a little dryer sometimes but usually not to a major extent. But humans lack the capacity to manage that process, so the Sun Brothers just selfishly hoard it all whereas the Water Dragon knows what she's doing.