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**** Serious answer: There's a throwaway line in 0079 where a Zeon commander (M'quve) claims to have shipped off enough material from his mines to keep Zeon fighting for another decade. Furthermore, if Stardust Memory is to be believed a crapton of Zeon forces didn't acknowledge the surrender and fled to places like Axis or the Delaz Fleet. This troper's guess would be that
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*** I still think that Operation British alone (which would've fucked up Earth even if the colony hit Jaburo) got the whole thing as close to black and white as a gritty, realistic war series could get without getting actual Nazis involved. And I'm fairly certain that even if Side 3 was allowed to peacefully secede, it would've been heavily dependent on Earth. A mostly unsettled (as far as the Europeans were concerned) new continent would have much more resources needed for survival and prosperity than big metal tubes out in space.
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****Serious answer: There's a throwaway line in 0079 where a Zeon commander (M'quve) claims to have shipped off enough material from his mines to keep Zeon fighting for another decade. Furthermore, if Stardust Memory is to be believed a crapton of Zeon forces didn't acknowledge the surrender and fled to places like Axis or the Delaz Fleet. This troper's guess would be that
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*** That wasn't an attempt to push any patriotism circuit, just comparing the scenario. The American colonists weren't being oppressed in the 'Evil Overlord' sense, they were taxed without representation and forced to sell their goods only to the British Empire. Similarly, the people of the colonies weren't allowed to form their own governments and had been forced to emigrate to the colonies. Naturally, there was resentment toward the Federation. However, the bad guys seized control of The Republic of Zeon, and formed a totalitarian dicatorship, using the ideals of the Republic to gain the loyalty of the people. You see, one of the founding philosophies of the Republic were that the people of Space should be independent from control of the Earth. When Degwin Zabi took control and shifted to a dictatorship, he believed the only way to achieve and maintain independence was for Zeon to fight the Federation. Before he took over, the Republic had been trying to negotiate for its independence, with the federation attempting to force them to return through economic pressure. Now, while the colony drop was by far the most destructive single attack in course of the war, both sides suffered horrific losses. The opening claimed both sides had lost half of their respective populations due to indiscriminate use of WMDs such as nuclear weapons and poison gas. The colony drop was an attempt to wipe out the Federation headquarters at Jaburo and end the war quickly, but the colony was diverted before it could hit, and landed in a civilian city. It's not quite grey and grey morality, but it is done in shades of grey. Once you get away from the original series, we get more and more instances of the Federation proving it can be just as bad as Zeon can. I think the 08th MS team does the best job of portraying each side as equal in greyscale ethics, with the Zeon occupation of that village when the Apsalus and the Federation shooting down a hospital ship. As for Operation Stardust and future Neo-Zeon movements, there seems to less and less justification for these, I'll give you that. As Zeon is continually revived, the followers become more and more fanatical, leading to more extreme actions that begin to fade from 'war' to near-religious terrorism. As Marida Cruz said, belief in the ideals of Zeon Zum-Deikun had become a religion for many. And like I said in my first argument, many of the colonists (And certainly themselves) see themselves as freedom fighters, seeking to liberate space from the perceived tyranny of Earth. So yes, probably not as grey as the writers like to think, but grey nonetheless. (Sorry for such a long and backstory heavy response)
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** Probably just because it was written in the late 70's, and ''someone'' needed to wear a miniskirt.
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** Probably just because it was written writt en in the late 70's, and ''someone'' needed to wear a miniskirt.miniskirt.
***According to the Gundam: The Origin manga, it's a training uniform.
***According to the Gundam: The Origin manga, it's a training uniform.
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*** Seriously.
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** Keep in mind that after 0083 there was pretty heavy oppression of the Space Colonies. Furthermore, the Titans (A Federation-affiliated group) did attempt a colony drop on Von Braun city. Now, the Federation has always been less evil than Zeon, but that's because Zeon is led almost entirely by comically evil dictator-types. For the 'spacenoids' (God, that's such a silly name...) the Zeon forces are seen as freedom fighters. They're seen as standing up for the rights of people in space. Sort of an American Revolution scenario, but with Space Nazis instead of Minutemen.
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** Keep in mind that after 0083 there was pretty heavy oppression of the Space Colonies. Furthermore, the Titans (A Federation-affiliated group) did attempt a colony drop on Von Braun city. Now, the Federation has always been less evil than Zeon, but that's because Zeon is led almost entirely by comically evil dictator-types. For the 'spacenoids' (God, that's such a silly name...) the Zeon forces are seen as freedom fighters. They're seen as standing up for the rights of people in space. Sort of an American Revolution scenario, but with Space Nazis instead of Minutemen. Minutemen.
*** ... And since they are Nazis led by comically evil people, it's, if not black and white, a lot less morally ambiguous than the writers would lead us to believe. And yes, the Titans were evil sumbitches. There is no excusing that. But they were formed (by a power-hungry asshat, granted) as a ''response'' to Zeon holdouts ''killing untold millions by dropping another fucking colony on Earth.'' And the Federation ultimately turned on the Titans, remember? Also, I fail to see how, with the exception of the Titans, the Federation is oppressing the colonies in any meaningful sense. Comparing it to the American Revolution isn't going to activate my Patriotism Circuits and make me see grey where there really isn't any.
*** ... And since they are Nazis led by comically evil people, it's, if not black and white, a lot less morally ambiguous than the writers would lead us to believe. And yes, the Titans were evil sumbitches. There is no excusing that. But they were formed (by a power-hungry asshat, granted) as a ''response'' to Zeon holdouts ''killing untold millions by dropping another fucking colony on Earth.'' And the Federation ultimately turned on the Titans, remember? Also, I fail to see how, with the exception of the Titans, the Federation is oppressing the colonies in any meaningful sense. Comparing it to the American Revolution isn't going to activate my Patriotism Circuits and make me see grey where there really isn't any.
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**** This troper always assumed it was Rule of Cool. The Alliance and Oz have a very old-world feel to their militaries, so I assumed they were based on WW1 fighter pilots, hence the goggles. It's adding to the atmosphere, I guess.
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**FIGHTING SPIRIT!
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** Keep in mind that after 0083 there was pretty heavy oppression of the Space Colonies. Furthermore, the Titans (A Federation-affiliated group) did attempt a colony drop on Von Braun city. Now, the Federation has always been less evil than Zeon, but that's because Zeon is led almost entirely by comically evil dictator-types. For the 'spacenoids' (God, that's such a silly name...) the Zeon forces are seen as freedom fighters. They're seen as standing up for the rights of people in space. Sort of an American Revolution scenario, but with Space Nazis instead of Minutemen.
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* Does anyone else think that slapping subordinates is covered somewhere in the Federation disciplinary manual? We all know Bright does it. Late in the series, Slegger slaps Mirai, but more telling would be the unnamed officer who slaps Amuro after Ryu's posthumous promotion. He's nobody important in the plotline, so it doesn't prove anything about his character (as with Bright and Slegger). Also, when Amuro ducks the first slap, the officer yells at him for avoiding discipline. (At least in the dub of the TV show.) There has to be some subsection paragraph authorizing officers to deliver one (1) open-handed slap to the face of a difficult subordinate.
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** Probably because it wasn't intended for Char to have, Char just needed an upgrade to keep up with Amuro and Zeon was desprately trying to make a last stand. So they just gave Char the zeong, another reason might be is the mobile suit wasn't finished. They hadn't built the legs, but they were in space so it didn't matter much (Look up 'perfect zeong' for a finished version.)
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* Why wasn't the zeong painted red? Every other Mobile Suit Char used was red, but the one they gave him for the big final battle wasn't? It should have been iconic, the culmination of every suit Char had used up until that point, but instead it's some sort of crazy grey reindeer man.
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** Seriously, can anyone explain Fraw's custom uniform?
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*** In VictoryGundam, there are bright orange safety belts that hold the pilot in place.
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* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, ''killing untold millions'', and their enemies don't do ''anything'' on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions ''don't make any sense because they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense''... When all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
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* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, ''killing untold millions'', and their enemies don't do ''anything'' on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions ''don't make any sense because they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense''... When all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity in a situation where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
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* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, ''killing untold millions'', and their enemies don't do ''anything'' on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions ''don't make any sense because they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense''... If all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
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* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, ''killing untold millions'', and their enemies don't do ''anything'' on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions ''don't make any sense because they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense''... If When all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
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* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, <i>killing untold millions</i>, and their enemies don't do <i>anything</i> on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions <i>don't make any sense</i> because <i>they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense</i>... If all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
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* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, <i>killing ''killing untold millions</i>, millions'', and their enemies don't do <i>anything</i> ''anything'' on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions <i>don't ''don't make any sense</i> sense because <i>they they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense</i>...sense''... If all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
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** That's because Zeon has a weird approach to weapon designing : basically, they create a crapton of prototypes, send them on the battlefield and mass produce the ones getting actual results. In fact, that's how they noticed the awesomeness of mobile suits in the first place! What's more, they also have a tendency to create overly specialized mechs, which effectively means they need a lot of differents models running around (the Gundam's [[TheMario Mario]] skillset was revolutionary for the time period).
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** That's because Zeon has a weird approach to weapon designing : basically, they create a crapton of prototypes, send them on the battlefield and mass produce the ones getting actual results. In fact, that's how they noticed the awesomeness of mobile suits in the first place! What's more, they also have a tendency to create overly specialized mechs, which effectively means they need a lot of differents different models running around (the Gundam's [[TheMario Mario]] skillset was revolutionary for the time period).
* Common sense indicates that if a military contractor were to provide aid to the enemies of its government client, that contractor wouldn't exist for much longer. So how has Anaheim survived pretty obvious treason?
* How much of Zeon's military escaped at the end of the One Year War, and how did they acquire all their materiel? I mean, continued Zeon sympathies in the colonies isn't enough justification for there being enough Zeon loyalists for them to field large enough numbers of advanced enough mobile suits to be a viable faction.
* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, <i>killing untold millions</i>, and their enemies don't do <i>anything</i> on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions <i>don't make any sense</i> because <i>they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense</i>... If all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
* Common sense indicates that if a military contractor were to provide aid to the enemies of its government client, that contractor wouldn't exist for much longer. So how has Anaheim survived pretty obvious treason?
* How much of Zeon's military escaped at the end of the One Year War, and how did they acquire all their materiel? I mean, continued Zeon sympathies in the colonies isn't enough justification for there being enough Zeon loyalists for them to field large enough numbers of advanced enough mobile suits to be a viable faction.
* I'm sorry, but when one side in a war caps off its indiscriminate use of deadly neurotoxin by dropping a great big heavy thing on Earth, <i>killing untold millions</i>, and their enemies don't do <i>anything</i> on that scale in retaliation, and for years afterwards holdouts of that side continue attempting to drop great big heavy things on Earth, and said side's rationale for its actions <i>don't make any sense</i> because <i>they are not being oppressed in any meaningful sense</i>... If all those criteria are met, moral ambiguity has officially vanished. Come to think of it, is there a specific trope for when a work claims there is moral ambiguity where, if you really think about it, it's pretty black and white?
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** HypeBacklash at American fans who only know about Gundam from Toonami, not that there isn't an equal HypeBacklash [[RedundancyDepartmentOfRedundancy Backlash]] at UC fanboys who refuse to accept anything than newer fans [[AssociationFallacy also happen to like]].
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** HypeBacklash at American fans who only know about Gundam from Toonami, not that there isn't an equal HypeBacklash [[RedundancyDepartmentOfRedundancy Backlash]] at UC fanboys who refuse to accept anything than that newer fans [[AssociationFallacy also happen to like]].
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*** Because the Universal Century really is that good. And since when did ''G'' get any HateDom worth listening to?
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** Gundam Wing almost always had pilots wearing seatbelts. (It also had mobile suit pilots inexplicably wearing aviator goggles, which struck this troper as weird since it was my understanding that aviator goggles were designed to keep ''wind'' out of the pilot's eyes.)
*** More All There in the Manual: The goggles are explained as symbol of the leader of the Maganac Corps which Quatre inherited from Rashid in the Episode Zero manga
**** But why do OZ mobile suit pilots wear goggles?
*** More All There in the Manual: The goggles are explained as symbol of the leader of the Maganac Corps which Quatre inherited from Rashid in the Episode Zero manga
**** But why do OZ mobile suit pilots wear goggles?
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**** But why do OZ mobile suit pilots wear goggles?
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** HypeBacklash at American fans who only know about Gundam from Toonami, not that there isn't an equal HypeBacklash [[RedundancyDepartmentOfRedundancy Backlash]] at UC fanboys who refuse to accept anything than newer fans [[AssociationFallacy also happen to like]].
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*** Because the Universal Century really is that good. And since when did ''G'' get any HateDom worth listening to?
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*** So one leader with an agenda can apparently convince an entire military to put nuclear warheads on a prototype? And none of the main characters think to question this rather poor decision?
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****Yeah, nostalgia goggles definetly as many of the problems they list with those anime exist in UC and then some.
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** Probably just because it was written in the late 70's, and ''someone'' needed to wear a miniskirt.
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*** Says you. In this troper's opinion, Zeta was a travesty that I can only forgive because of Double Zeta, the rest of UC still rocks.
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** Probably some form of DidNotDoTheResearch or TechnologyMarchesOn. Either that, or UC watts are several orders of magnitude more powerful than present-day watts. After all, look at the computers that they use in early UC works, they're probably twenty times bulkier than a 2010-era PC with likely half the processing power.
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*** No, not nostalgia. G is too different, W has various reasons to dislike it, Seed is too whiney. Also, ZZ, 0083 and CCA do have their detractors.
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*** No, not nostalgia. G is too different, W has various reasons to dislike it, Seed is too whiney. Also, ZZ, 0083 and CCA do have their detractors.
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*** No, not nostalgia. G is too different, W has various reasons to dislike it, Seed is too whiney. Also, ZZ, 0083 and CCA do have their detractors.
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** That's because Zeon has a weird approach to weapon designing : basically, they create a crapton of prototypes, send them on the battlefield and mass produce the ones getting actual results. In fact, that's how they noticed the awesomeness of mobile suits in the first place! What's more, they also have a tendency to create overly specialized mechs, which effectively means they need a lot of differents models running around (the Gundam's [[TheMario Mario]] skillset was revolutionary for the time period).
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* Why don't they ever use optically-guided (like the Maverick or the Kh-29T) or infrared-guided missiles to counter the effects of Minovsky particles on radar, or even a special missile that seeks out high Minovsky particle densities? Mobile suits have EOS sensors (like the [[CyberCyclops monoeye]]) after all.
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* Why don't they ever use optically-guided (like the Maverick or the Kh-29T) or infrared-guided missiles to counter the effects of Minovsky particles on radar, or even a special missile that seeks out high Minovsky particle densities? Mobile suits have EOS sensors (like the [[CyberCyclops monoeye]]) after all.all, which are practically ''never'' seen being impaired despite the [[InformedAbility claims]] that Minovsky particles are supposed to do that.
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* Why don't they ever use optically-guided (like the Maverick or the Kh-29T) or infrared-guided missiles to counter the effects of Minovsky particles on radar, or even a special missile that seeks out high Minovsky particle densities? Mobile suits have EOS sensors (like the [[CyberCyclops monoeye]]) after all.
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* If the One Year War is indeed only one year long, where are the Zeon forces getting all these cool new mobile suits? It really seems like it should have taken a bit longer to go from the Zaku I/Zaku II to the Gelgoog and Zeong.
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* If the One Year War is indeed only one year long, where are the Zeon forces getting all these cool new mobile suits? It really seems like it should have taken a bit longer to go from the Zaku I/Zaku II to the Gelgoog and Zeong.Zeong, not to mention a lot of the other crazy things they come up with. In the same amount of time, the Federation only manages to come up more reasonably with the Gundam, Guncannon, Guntank, along with the GM and Ground Combat Gundams which clearly stem from the V Project, and the Ball, which is just a work pod with a cannon (and a death trap).
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If the One Year War is indeed only one year long, where are the Zeon forces getting all these cool new mobile suits? It really seems like it should have taken a bit longer to go from the Zaku I/Zaku II to the Gelgoog and Zeong.
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If the One Year War is indeed only one year long, where are the Zeon forces getting all these cool new mobile suits? It really seems like it should have taken a bit longer to go from the Zaku I/Zaku II to the Gelgoog and Zeong.
