History Headscratchers / ElGoonishShive

*** And then gone again. However, reason was given in the commentary -- basically, what happened was that Dan eventually stopped doing color pages because he felt it took up too much time for the gain, then by Squirrel Prophet had figured out new techniques that cut down on that so he felt comfortable doing color pages again, and then after a while he realized that while the actual implementation was now fairly painless, he spent way too much time deciding on colors for things without set colors.

*** We've now seen several background characters with blue, purple and green hair around Moperville South HS, more than one would expect as just a fashion statement.

*** So dark everyone thinks she's a brunette. And Susan can find large amounts of almost anything -- she lives in "the Snoot Creek subdivision" and all that.
*** Susan dyes her hair black, not blue.
*** [[http://elgoonishshive.com/Filler/d/20070223.html Wrong]].

*** [[http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2010-02-04 Something like that anyway.]]

*** Ellen and Nanase, in addition to being two of the stronger fighters, each stronger than Justin, had their own magic tricks, flight/illusion for Nanase, beams for Ellen. Justin hadn't awakened his 'flaming kicks' yet- nowadays he might be strong enough.

*** See "[[http://www.egscomics.com/sketchbook/?date=2002-07-04 All your yarn are belong to us]]" fact sheet.

*** Agreed. Hedge does mention that they were all about to be allowed back into normal society at the time of Grace's birthday, and they had jobs offered to them. We'll probably see them again at some point, but only as a cameo. They've had a happy ending already; they probably won't be playing a very big part in the comic again.

*** Rebuttal: Even in irregular combat situations, close-quarters fighting still isn't very useful, mostly because if the enemy is that close to you, then you probably screwed up somehow. Plus, armies already have perfectly adequate close-quarters fighting techniques and weapons (like combat knifes and bayonets), and such fights are more often decided by skill then physiology (look at the fight between Grace and Damien). Also, there is no real indication that they are far stronger then normal, and their Main/ShapeSifting abilities would make it difficult to wear body. Furthermore, it doesn't look like Vlad and Guineas could wield modern weapons effectively, if at all. Finally, you can't seem to make a whole lot of [[Main/SuperSoldier Super Soldiers]] this way, rendering their impact on anything other then ''very'' small battles extremely low.
**** As stated below, they weren't really super-soldiers, just super-assasins. Being able to transform into a harmless-looking animal would certainly be helpful for a stealth-killer. The halfway form may not have even been intentional, it could've just happened--after all, Grace gets the halfway form automatically whenever they give her a new animal form with the transformation gun without having to also program in a halfway form. A bit more work was thrown into Grace, but that was specifically tailoring her to fight one person, and proved successful (mostly because they made her immune to his main weapon).
***** While super-assassins make more sense then super-soldier, Grace and her brothers wouldn't make very effective assassins. While being able to turn into a small, harmless animal is useful for stealth reasons, there's more to being a good assassin being stealthy, especially for one in the employ of a large nation-state. The assassin would also have to be able to kill silently, so they can get away for another mission, and kill the target in such a way that it isn't apparent that the target has been assassinated. Otherwise people are going to get suspicious when the nation-states enemies start dieing mysteriously, even if they can't figure out how that nation is killing them, which would defeat the whole propose of killing them stealthily. Furthermore, the smart enemies would increase their security after a few successful hits, making it harder to kill the people the nation would most want to kill.
***** Also, creating an assassin like Grace to fight one person is a massive investment of resources and time for one goal, especially considering that: Damien was only a rumor, so tailoring someone to fight him would be extremely difficult at best; there would be a very long lag time between the creation of the fighter and the time when that person would be able to fight Damien; and there was never any indication that he couldn't be killed by anything else, sure he had healing powers, but I'd imagine that a bullet to the head would still be lethal to anyone that isn't explicitly immortal.
****** It seems to me that the real threat of Damien is his regeneration. The only thing unique about Grace is that she has Lespuko poison claws, which allows her to get around that problem. Even if Damien was just a rumor, I imagine the scientists would want to preempt any regenerating combatant.
******* Well, that and being fireproof.
***** Why hand someone a gun when you can make him invulnerable and on fire? Let’s not forget that, for all intents and purposes, the whole project was a spectacular failure anyway.

*** Agreed. They were shapeshifters created because the company needed a gimmick to stand out in the assassin market, and people are looking for effectiveness?

*** Been a while since my archive binge, but if I remember right, Guineas was basically a test of the process – a literal guinea pig, if you will.
**** As was Vlad. Actually, the whole project was pretty much still in beta when it collapsed.
***** And Dan Shive admitted that Guineas was a bit of a throwaway in the supplements after "Painted Black" ended – apparently he was stuck for what animal to use, and a friend of his who owned a guinea pig suggested that.
****** Er... Maybe because it's silly? This is supposed to be a dramedy, after all. Besides, compared to some of the ''actual'' stuff dreamed up by the real US Department of Defense (incendiary bats, pigeon guided missiles), maybe squirrel and guinea pig based assassins aren't that far-fetched after all. Dr. Sciuridae as much as admits that the whole animal-based assassins thing was just a marketing gimmmick anyway.
***** Shive also admitted that hedgehogs were his favorite animal, hence Hedge. He said that was also why Hedge had such a cool design.

*** Or ''Justin'' is.
**** I can think of zillions of possibilities offhand Maybe Justin is just trying to set Tedd at ease and doesn't want to go through all of the possible ramifications. Or maybe they're both just naive kids who have yet to figure out all of the nuances inherent in their own sexuality. Or maybe they simply aren't omniscient or even sophisticated, Or, maybe it might even be possible that ''the author was just trying to set up the joke in the next panel!'' Sheesh.

*** If I recall correctly, Tedd ''is'' insecure about his gender identity, leading to his freakout at the birthday party when he (as a girl) makes out with Grace (as a guy).
**** Exactly, being insecure in his sexual identity is a huge part of his character, it's almost the first thing you'd say about him after "mad scientist" and "prettier than most of the girls" ...which probably didn't help his confidence.
***** And this is the guy with the gender changing gun? That's a setup for tragedy and a potential Lord Tedd backstory.
****** You might say they're ...NotSoDifferent.

*** Well, yeah, but I think every major character (with the possible exception of Elliot) has broken down into tears at some point, as well as several minor characters. True, it's sometimes justifiable, but it gets kind of old.
*** It's a character-based series that's been running since January 2002. You're gonna get waterworks.
*** People cry a lot more in real life than you might think. EGS is quite realistic sentimentally wise and with a strong social aspect, so it is only natural to witness those situations.
*** Also, the core cast are teenagers. Hormones flow aplenty during adolescence, and that tends to influence one's emotional responses. There's also the life-and-death situations the cast often find themselves in. A close brush with death, one's own or that of a friend, relative, or significant other, will bring tears unless one is super-stoic.

*** [[ObfuscatingStupidity She says she thinks it's a phase...]]
*** More accurately she thinks it's a [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_S_(genre) 'Class S' relationship]], which is an understandable reaction given Mrs. Kitsune's conservative bent.

*** Aww man, I always confuse those two, sorry. The point is, that looking younger than what she is is implied to be part of her hybrid nature, with Mr. Verres explicitly saying that it's remarkable that she is 18 and looks 16... it would be remarkable if she was in her 20's, but looking 2 years younger than her actual age is really nothing out of the ordinary.

*** His female form is naturally busty ''and he was concentrating on Sarah's face rather than her chest''. From what we've seen, there's no reason why he couldn't change any given aspect of his "default" female form if he tried hard enough, he's just not experienced enough with the spell to manage it with any consistency.
**** While the inexperience can be used to explain it (Two times had he failed in making a "perfect" copy, the first becoming ''taller'' than intended and the second in the bust area). But that's no what bugs me, but the fact that no one has acknowledged the existence of masculine girls, or flat chested girls.
***** Let me better explain it: he got that ability from touching the diamond while being in Female Variant #5 form, which modifies men to have normal female measurements for their age and changes height and such, so he can't make his bust size smaller as a girl, because that would violate the rules of [=FV5=]. If he were blasted by [=FV1=] or maybe even [=FV2=]-4, maybe that would be different. I am not Dan Shive, and he hasn't done a Q&A of this, but does that explain it better? (Granted, he can modify his form, but I think that becoming a masculine-looking female would go far out of bounds regarding [=FV5=], and [[http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2006-11-01 here]] [[http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/?date=2009-12-15 are]] my sources.)
****** True that, but the diamond seriously ''screwed'' up the magicks. Remember that, Ellen is supposedly the "anthropomorphic representation" of V5, Yet she never had the pheromones... and her magic awakened as "clone-rays" (So far) Likewise, Elliot's magic isn't limited to "transform into a V5 version of yourself" but rather into any girl he wants. Like someone explained above, it seems like if he isn't paying attention while transforming, he will morph into Ellen. If he tries to copy someone he will transform in accordance to what he's thinking, even if he makes mistakes. (He didn't take into account the high heels, and the second time, he was focusing on the face)
****** She's not ''in'' FV5, she's in her default form ''based on'' Elliot in FV5 – that's why she can V5 herself once more (and maybe why in her case it looks rather exaggerated). That, and by the time Elliot touched DD [[http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2003-07-24 pheromones were normalized long ago]] anyway. Other than this, only basic "twisted curse" effects DD gave them are linked with FV5, they both got derived spells soon enough (because they ''had'' to discharge every day), and those aren't related to FV5.
***** Another thing is that Ellen is made out of magic, so that's why she was able to get a "clone beam" when Elliot is still turning into girls with the MostCommonSuperpower. Seriously, how many times before his awakening has he transformed without the gun? Now how many times before her awakening has Ellen fired her beam? Ellen's natural alignment with magic and her frequency in using her beam would explain that.
***** Ellen was created by magic, but every character that has had direct contact with her and expresses knowledge about the situation, has explicitly refer to her as a human being, and other than her zapping abilities (Which are kind of "normal" on this setting anyway) she doesn't seem to have any magical design. And the other stuff, Elliot can change into any girl she wants. Or doesn't) It's been explicitly shown that he will become Ellen if he just transforms, and he will became someone else(Or someone that doesn't even exists) if he thinks hard enough. either he can change ''everything'' about "her" appearance, or he can't change nothing. Granted, the simplest explanation could be that he hasn't ''thought' of that.
***** Or, you know, he could just be bothered by the fact that he has to ''turn into a girl multiple times per day,'' as opposed to his/her actual ''appearance'' as a girl...

*** One would think ''30'' years would overpower that, but chalk it up to RuleOfDrama I guess.
*** The "second life" memories shouldn't be included in that total: That was an alternate universe version of Tedd, with his own personality. They may be similar, but "SL-Tedd was a good person who I knew for a decade" does not necessarily guarantee that "EGS-Tedd is a good person". Her memories from Elliot should still be valid, but she's essentially overcompensating for her "Piece that does not fit" issues by denying anything that involves acknowledging herself and Elliot as formerly the same person.
*** If I remember correctly, she said that once she got her own memories from Nioi, she still had Elliot's memories but instead of really feeling like hers, they felt more like something she read in a book rather than had experienced, since they were replaced by her real memories. Added to the fact that alternate!Tedd is different than real!Tedd, it's more like she knows all about him and knows that he's a good person, but she's really only known this Tedd for 3 months and is still detached because, as she put it, "the day we met was the worst day of my life".
*** Admittedly, that explanation falls flat when you consider she's only known Nanase and Grace for that long as well.
**** Ellen basically blamed Tedd for everything wrong with her life, particularly involving her creation, and she was upset that he never apologized for the mistakes he made leading up to it. This seems to be heading for resolution with Tedd telling her that if they were mistakes, they were the best mistakes he ever made. (Hm, accidental father anyone?)

*** Confirmed -- Grace's levitation is her using her telekinesis powers.

* It is my imagination, or Justin is just about the only one from the main gang to not have a romatic developement? He is so out of focus in the story that isnt even funny. Well, the comic is known for its DoubleStandard, but to leave Justin developeless for so long...

** As of {{http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1837 this comic}}, it's pretty clearly shown that they're just slightly darker than the rest of the characters' skin.

*** People cry a lot more in real life than you might think. EGS is quite realistic sentimentally wise and with a strong social aspect, so it only natural to witness those situations.

Back on topic, it probably depends on whether the male is circumsized (think I spelled that wrong) or not.

* Has Tedd and Akiko ever seen each other? There hasn't been a single time on panel where they saw each other, and they never mentioned each other.

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<<|ItJustBugsMe|>>

* Why has Ellen gone from "playful and irreverent" to "uncaring bitch"? It hit me when she laughed at the thought of Elliot being forced to transform (a situation she has experience with). She's gotten less and less nice since she calmed down, and at this rate she'll be a full-blown JerkAss by this time next year.
** I just figured it was her trying to distinguish herself, personality-wise, from Elliot. Plus, as mentioned above, she's probably not entirely stable.
** She could have distinguished herself through the arts, or taking an interest in local politics, or 1001 things Elliot doesn't do. Choosing to be a loud, obnoxious jerk doesn't seem like the best option seeing as, you know, it loses you friends.
** Sisters like to laugh at their siblings' pain. Simple as that.
*** In fact, in a more recent strip, after realizing that Elliot's problems are much worse than she thought, she feels extremely guilty, even though Elliot seems to take it in stride.
*** I don't see why she feels so badly about it, anyway. Elliot's situation is worse than hers, but still isn't exactly ''bad''. Temporary inconvenience in exchange for learning magic? I'd take that deal.
**** I think you're forgetting that transforming [[PainfulTransformation hurts like hell]], so he would have to endure extreme pain multiple times per day and doesn't even get the luxury of sleeping in his own body
***** Beg pardon? Turning into his cat-hybrid form hurts, but when has mere gender-swapping ever been [[PainfulTransformation painful]] in this comic?
** So Elliot's a masochist? Seeing as that's what Ellen's schadenfreude implies. Also, this is ''Ellen'' laughing. Elliot didn't get hit by V5-with-added-jerk way back in Sister.
**** Transforming via the belt hurts. The kind of transformation he does now is essentially painless.
**** A recent page clarifies it. Transforming into an animal via anything other than the gun (or being Grace) hurts like hell. But his female transformation is painless.
** Mind, while Elliot doesn't hold it against her at all, Ellen now feels ''badly'' about that in recent updates.
** Really, I'd say "uncaring bitch" is a bit of a {{Flanderization}}. While she's certainly been insensitive, and on multiple different occasions, the fact that she felt bad about it nearly every time and ''apologized afterward'' says that she wasn't being uncaring so much as just opening her mouth without thinking. Again, while this is far from admirable, it hardly makes her a horrible human being. Also, as to the argument that Elliot is worse off than she is, remember that she's still a clone of Elliot with all of his memories who's trapped in a female body for the rest of her life, so I'd say in the long run, Ellen is still the one who's got it "worse."
* Related to the above, why is it that whenever someone on the EGS forum says Ellen is a jerk, they get branded a "hater"? From what I've seen, nobody actually hates her, it's just that some people dislike her. Should I just chalk it up to [[FanDumb FanDumb]]?

** It's not so much that people are criticizing her character as that a lot of them seem to be blowing things way out of proportion. As jerk-ish as she can be at times, it's almost always unintentional and she has apologized for it, yet rather than simply acknowledging the flaw and saying that she could use some CharacterDevelopment, people are calling her an uncaring bitch (see above) and saying that she deserves to die. I've seen one person declare Ellen to be her least favorite character because of her insensitivity and ''[[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking the way that she texted]]'', of all things.

* Is it just me, or is Justin the ''single whiniest bitch in history''? So, a girl he considers his best friend and who had an obvious crush on him finds out he's gay. Now I could understand if she had gone around telling everyone as a form of petty revenge. But she only told ''one person'', who then told a bunch of people. This minor slip is worth breaking off what appeared to be most of ten years of friendship? Oh, sure, one could argue that her telling her sister resulted in a lot of grief for Justin. ''Except it totally didn't''. Aside from one particular group of three or four dickheads, does anyone in the comic seem to care? And ''they'' were only a problem for a couple of months before Elliot beat the living crap out of them. So, now Justin has basically ''no reason'' to not forgive his best friend since childhood for something that wasn't even her fault in the first place- and he doesn't. ''WHY''? Because later, ''after'' all the rejection and trauma and general JerkAss-ness, she goes decidedly insane? Whose fault is that? Well, okay, really nobody's, she was probably inherently unstable to begin with, but he could at least have tried to handle it like an adult instead of constantly avoiding her and being rude where the former was impossible. And now, in the latest comic, he's got the sheer ''balls'' to be upset when she finally just lets it all go? Seriously, what is with this guy?
** First of all, it should be noted that Justin's back story essentially mirrors everything Nanase has been going through since she showed up in the comic (more precisely, when she started to wonder why she wasn't attracted to Elliot, and probably for some unmentioned time previously in back story), except that in his case it all went horribly wrong. So the short version is: Look at everything that happened to Nanase, and then take the parts that went right, and have them fail to do so (though maybe not technically in the worst way possible). To elaborate:
*** They both realize that they are gay, and tell the one person they think they can trust (their former lover, not counting Susan who finds out mostly by accident), and then their secret gets out because someone they trusted to keep it (Nanase did not jump to the conclusion that Susan told the others until told that was what happened, remember) told someone else. Susan technically told more people than Melissa, even. However, for Justin the difference is that the person Melissa trusted told everyone else. Nanase would not have adjusted as well if the gang had decided to spread this gossip about her.
*** From what Justin has said, and therefore certainly from his perspective if not in objective reality (which we cannot be sure of), it was more than just those four people that Justin got in a fight with that were treating him badly. Further, we know for a fact that Diane seems to think less of Justine because he is gay, so factually there is at least one other person besides those four whose opinion was colored by his sexuality. Even if she may or may not have an actual problem with his homosexuality herself, her personal rejection of it only seems to go as far as "he won't pay attention to me," the fact that she is worried he will drive other men away from her just by being there says a lot.
*** Just like how Nanase feared her mother's reaction, Justin's parents seem to have a problem with his sexuality. When Justin calls his parents to tell them he is sleeping over at Susan's place, his father apparently expresses disappointment that Justin does not want to sleep with any of the women there. So where as Nanase's coming out to her mom was at least under circumstances where her mother didn't decide to impose her will on her (time will only tell how it plays out further down the road), Justin does apparently face some difficulties at home as well (even if they don’t try to actively repress his sexuality like Nanase fears her mother might, the mere act of showing disappointment when he’s already vulnerable could easily hurt him rather badly).
**** Given the reaction of Justin, it could have been simply a joke from his father. I like to think that if his father was serious, he would have look a little more upset in his response.
*** Even taking all that into account, the idea that Justin just flat out didn't listen to Melissa when they finally do talk is a little imprecise. Considering the circumstances, it isn't much wonder that Justin doesn't want to talk to her throughout the arc. However, during their scene together, while he does snipe at her a little in the beginning (given the circumstances and the fact that he really isn't an adult, and therefore holding him up to perfect standards of behavior under all circumstances is actually pretty unfair, one could argue he did an alright job by listening to her at all), the last panel shows him being shocked to silence at her words, and not in an angry way either. It would be speculation to say so, of course, but it seems apparent that he's wondering if he was being hard on her, or at least showing some empathy for her by caring that she had it bad too. Perfect human being? No, he's not, but Justin did go through hard times, and he really could have handled things worse.
** It doesn't matter if Melissa told one or a hundred person, she still broke Justin's confidence, which, no matter how long, it made Justin's life living hell.
** Expecting Justin to handle any of it "like an adult" is not entirely fair, either; he's not an adult. He was what, sixteen when he was forcibly outed? And Moperville doesn't seem to have much of an active LGBT community; I'm willing to bet that Moperville South does not have a GSA or similar organization. Even if it was only "three or four dickheads" that were actively harassing him, that was still three or four more enemies than allies that he had until he met Elliot. And it clearly wasn't just those few kids who cared – if Justin's own parents found out via overhearing people in the grocery store, there was pretty clearly a good deal of widespread gossip going around, which yes, can be as damaging psychologically as can direct aggression.
*** Not to mention that it was ''literally endangering him'', as evidence by the fact that said dickheads ''physically attacked him''. There's a reason LGBT people take getting outed really seriously, since if someone does it without your permission they are in many cases ''literally'' endangering your life. Just look at what happened to Matthew Shepard for the worst-case scenario.
*** You forget that they didn't go that far until Justin attacked them first. Granted, they went on him considerably more than necessary, but even Justin notes that he had no one to blame but himself for that particular instance. From the side of the original entry, though, it should be noted that Melissa was Justin's ''best friend'' for ''almost a decade''. He also knows that Melissa had her heart set on having a romantic relationship with him, so he ''knows'' why she would be so upset and why she might have a lapse in judgement. Yes, he had plenty of reason to be pissed at her regardless, but at this point in the storyline, he should at least be able to ''consider'' forgiveness to be a possibility, and yet not only is he not, he actually goes off on ''Elliot'', of all people, for merely ''suggesting'' it. The above is all well and good, and yes, he's not an adult, but the recent story arc has been trying to paint him as fairly mature, and if you can't even let your best friend of that long get an explanation in edgewise, you just might '''fail''' as a human being.
*** She got her explanation in edgewise back when the whole thing started. She then proceeded to make a complete ass of herself while Justin went on to actually suffer from that "lapse in judgement". Considering the timeframe, it's been at most two years since he was outed, and he's still feeling the effects of what she did to him. That's a rather short time period to get over a betrayal on that level. And he got mad at Elliot for suggesting it because Elliot doesn't understand what it was like firsthand and it is rightfully an extremely touchy issue. Considering what happens to people in Justin's situation in real life beyond just getting into fights, the only thing Melissa has any right to do in this situation is be thankful Justin didn't make himself just one more point on a long and rapidly growing line of statistics. He did admit to Susan that he was considering it.
** It's also worth noting, if I got it right, that Justin ''didn't know'' that Melissa only told her sister and that her sister was the snitch – until Elliot told him, Justin thought Melissa herself had spread his secret all over the school. That's a lot harder to forgive than telling one person while extremely upset.
*** He did know before Elliot told him as shown in the latest flashback. He's still mad because Melissa of all people should be aware of her sister's total inability to keep her mouth shut.
**** And this was always the case, because when Justin told the story to Susan during the birthday party, he said that Melissa told "some''one'' else", and that someone spread the story across the school.