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*** It's not about planetary mass, it's about ''biomass''. Which is much, much smaller, see below.
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*** As is made quite clear in "Moreta". While she respects Orlith's preferred bronze's rider for his skill at leading in Threadfall, she doesn't have much affection for him as a person, and they maintain separate quarters and a business relationship outside of mating flights.
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** Probably not. Someone probably realised at some point that the stronger the dragons involved, the longer the flight, and that got turned into 'Long flights mean good clutches'.
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**On the other hand, as Mike pointed out in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", there is a world of difference (pun intended) between the mass of a planet and the portion of that mass that is involved in the life cycle. It's not just the dragons themselves - according to the Dragonlover's Guide, they also excrete wastes between, and 3000 dragons at a time for 2500 years adds up to a big pile of...well, you know what I mean.
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**Given that descriptions of mating flights usually involve the bronze catching the queen and the two of them coupling as they fall, the higher flight may give the bronze more time to transfer the equivalent of sperm before they have to break off to prevent a crash landing. While a human male transfers far more sperm than are needed for fertilization in a couple of seconds, there's no reason to assume that holds true for dragons.
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** It was said that it's the wole flight, not particulary fertilizing part, that should be long to get a good cluth.
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** It was said that it's the wole flight, not particulary fertilizing part, that should be long to get a good cluth. It was more along the lines "the futher and higher queen will rise."
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** It was said that it's the wole flight, not particulary fertilizing part, that should be long to get a good cluth.
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**** There's a sociological issue involved as well: during the previous Intervals, the dragonriders grew decadent and complacent, and lorded their position over the Holders. Having that many more idle riders around is just going to burden the population even more and create still more resentment toward supporting the Weyrs (F'lar had a hard enough time getting them to cooperate as it was).
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** The only result of the extensive inbreeding from the Oldtimers' disappearance is the fact that Ramoth and Mnementh are both comparable in size to a Cessna (or are half the length of a football field/pitch depending on whether or not you use feet or meters), which is far beyond what Kitti Ping had originally programmed.
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**** Stated outright in ''Dragonseye'' (''Red Star Rising'' in the UK), in the context of female greenriders wondering what to do when/if their dragon rose to mate, given that blueriders generally "didn't like girls".
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*** As far as Lemos and Nabol Holds go, Bart Lemos and Nabhi Nabol managed to somewhat salvage their reputations when they agreed to attempt a flight to the Oort Cloud to gather Thread spores. Granted, they did it in order to secure the rights to what would later become Ista, but as they both died in the attempt, the Holds were likely named in honor of that final sacrifice. As to Bitra Hold, this is what ''The Dragonlover's Guide To Pern'' has to say on the matter.
-->"[Avril Bitra] is believed to have been heroically martyred for the sake of the colonists of Pern when she single-handedly piloted a small ship with faulty controls head-on into the wandering planet, the colonists' name for the Red Star. The original founders of Bitra left Benden Hold because of disagreements they had over Bitra's role in the foundation of Pern. Their view was that Admiral Benden and Governor Boll stood by to let Pern fall to the terrible menace while only Bitra and her colleagues tried to save it. Bitra was called the champion of the lost cause, who was failed not by her skills but by a sabotaged starship. In the end, despite the opposition, the Hold was named as a memorial to Avril Bitra."
-->"[Avril Bitra] is believed to have been heroically martyred for the sake of the colonists of Pern when she single-handedly piloted a small ship with faulty controls head-on into the wandering planet, the colonists' name for the Red Star. The original founders of Bitra left Benden Hold because of disagreements they had over Bitra's role in the foundation of Pern. Their view was that Admiral Benden and Governor Boll stood by to let Pern fall to the terrible menace while only Bitra and her colleagues tried to save it. Bitra was called the champion of the lost cause, who was failed not by her skills but by a sabotaged starship. In the end, despite the opposition, the Hold was named as a memorial to Avril Bitra."
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** [[WildMassGuess A longer flight results in the male having more time to fertilize a larger amount of eggs?]]
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* Is was claimed that the longer mating flight is the better and bigger will be clutch. Is there any other reason, beside flight being the test for the strongest and smartest male to win and pass his genes further?
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* Is was It's claimed that the longer mating flight is is, the better and bigger will be the egg clutch. Is there any other reason, beside besides flight being the test for the strongest and smartest male to win and pass his genes further? on?
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*Is was claimed that the longer mating flight is the better and bigger will be clutch. Is there any other reason, beside flight being the test for the strongest and smartest male to win and pass his genes further?
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***** First two statements above were both {{Jossed}} (or AscendedFanon, depending on your POV) by ''Dragongirl'', where a woman Impresses a Blue. Perhaps it's "''Straight'' women can't impress male dragons?"
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*** I don't know about the "spouses" part of it, but I believe it's mentioned somewhere in the first three books that substitutes can be utilised.
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**Now that I think about it, Ruth's unusual size, coloration, etc, could be an early sign that the dragon population is starting to accumulate a few bad traits in its gene pool... Good thing he's shown as unlikely to breed.
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***** Well, I think it has more to do with the fact that women can get pregnant. Men can't. So yeah, not quite the double standards, but perhaps a more simple reason of not wanting to have so many kids running around Pern. Of course, this makes even more sense when one remembers just how frequently a Green rises.
****** Actually, since going between ends a pregnancy, except within the first month, having female green riders would not increase the population. Green dragons are fighting dragons, and fighting thread involves a lot of going between. That was one of Mirrim's problems later on, she wanted a baby, but kept miscarrying, because she couldn't tell she was pregnant in time to stop going between, and save the baby.
****** Given that line of logic, doesn't that mean that Lord Holders should have been neutered once they hit thirty? Seems that powerful men taking advantage of Pernese ''Droit de seigneur'' were responsible for more offspring than they could reasonably keep track of. A single Lord was probably responsible for more population growth than you could possibly blame on a green dragon. ''They'' didn't seem too worried about overpopulation (at least until the plague hit, a la ''Moreta''.)
******* Remember that there's no majorate or salic law in Pern, and Lord Holder's heirs aren't always their eldest sons -- in fact, they are ''elected'' (by the other Lord Holders and usually from the incumbent's bloodline, but still elected), so most Lord Holders like to "throw their seed wide", to ensure that at least one of their offspring would be acceptable to their colleagues to keep the post in the family.
****** Actually, since going between ends a pregnancy, except within the first month, having female green riders would not increase the population. Green dragons are fighting dragons, and fighting thread involves a lot of going between. That was one of Mirrim's problems later on, she wanted a baby, but kept miscarrying, because she couldn't tell she was pregnant in time to stop going between, and save the baby.
****** Given that line of logic, doesn't that mean that Lord Holders should have been neutered once they hit thirty? Seems that powerful men taking advantage of Pernese ''Droit de seigneur'' were responsible for more offspring than they could reasonably keep track of. A single Lord was probably responsible for more population growth than you could possibly blame on a green dragon. ''They'' didn't seem too worried about overpopulation (at least until the plague hit, a la ''Moreta''.)
******* Remember that there's no majorate or salic law in Pern, and Lord Holder's heirs aren't always their eldest sons -- in fact, they are ''elected'' (by the other Lord Holders and usually from the incumbent's bloodline, but still elected), so most Lord Holders like to "throw their seed wide", to ensure that at least one of their offspring would be acceptable to their colleagues to keep the post in the family.
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**** If anything, the situation on Pern is usually the exact opposite of "trying to keep them from breeding too much" - the population was tiny to start with and supposed to be fruitful and multiply, and then kept having disasters dumped on them. LOTS of kids is repeatedly held up as a virtue. Putting a woman on a fighting green means either that she can't have babies, due to all the betweening, or she's out of action, depriving the wing of a fighter. It's clearly stated in one of the stories set during the rise of the first weyrs that they thought it was a good idea to encourage gay men to become green riders so that the greens would stop taking maternity leave.
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** About the Riders and incest thing... it's strongly implied (maybe outright stated) in one of the books that it's possible to 'substitute' a partner during such a tryst. If two dragons happen to mate whose riders are related or just don't like each other, the Weyrefolk can pair each Rider off with a compatible partner of the appropriate sex who does not provide the same complications. In fact, this often happens when a dragonrider marries a non-dragonrider. Their spouse takes on the role of sex-partner instead of them being unfaithful, and the other half of the dragonrider pair gets a substitute (usually from among the Weyrfolk).
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** About the Riders and incest thing... it's strongly implied (maybe outright stated) in one of the books that it's possible to 'substitute' a partner during such a tryst. If two dragons happen to mate whose riders are related or just don't like each other, the Weyrefolk Weyrfolk can pair each Rider off with a compatible partner of the appropriate sex who does not provide the same complications. In fact, this often happens when a dragonrider marries a non-dragonrider. Their spouse takes on the role of sex-partner instead of them being unfaithful, and the other half of the dragonrider pair gets a substitute (usually from among the Weyrfolk).
*** Not saying you're wrong, but this must have been a very late addition to the lore, as it bears little resemblance to the world shown in earlier books (and I haven't read the last few / Todd's). The idea of a dragonrider marrying at all sounds baffling, and a weyr-dragon marrying a non-dragonrider sounds like a world-shattering scandal, not something so frequent that one could say how it's 'often' handled! (Disregarding Jaxom, who wasn't exactly a weyr member and whose dragon was outside standard dragon sexuality.)
*** Not saying you're wrong, but this must have been a very late addition to the lore, as it bears little resemblance to the world shown in earlier books (and I haven't read the last few / Todd's). The idea of a dragonrider marrying at all sounds baffling, and a weyr-dragon marrying a non-dragonrider sounds like a world-shattering scandal, not something so frequent that one could say how it's 'often' handled! (Disregarding Jaxom, who wasn't exactly a weyr member and whose dragon was outside standard dragon sexuality.)
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****** Actually, since going between ends a pregnancy, except within the first month, having female green riders would not increase the population. Green dragons are fighting dragons, and fighting thread involves a lot of going between. That was one of Mirrim's problems later on, she wanted a baby, but kept miscarrying, because she couldn't tell she was pregnant in time to stop going between, and save the baby.
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** Except he really had no say in it. Yeah it still a jerkassish thing to say, but really it's just him being a blowhard, since the decision wasn't up to him, no more then it was up to her. When dragons mate, the riders have no say, green riders may be able to make arrangements, but every thing we seen shows that when a queen and bronze mate there riders have no choice but to do so as well.
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** It could be because Jaxom was fed up with being different. He's one of the last Ruathans left, the son of Fax, who is always being stared at and isolated. He went against tradition and Impressed a unique dragon who everyone thought would die, and whom people thought might not be a proper dragon. And then he ends up with the tiny Ruth, who's pretty much asexual. It's hammering in the point that Jaxom's pretty much a freak among Holders and riders alike.
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** It's also possible that girls of the right mindset to ride fighting dragons were kept in their Holds, away from the Searches. If the only female candidates found by the dragonriders were the important girls, the daughters of Holders, and if they were found to only be good for riding gold dragons, it's possible that an opinion formed among Weyrleaders that only boys should ride greens.
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** And we also learn in Dragonblood that due to the way dragon DNA is structured it is much much harder for it to randomly mutate, which further helps keep the gene pool free of the normal side effects of inbreeding. Though the book does show one of the disadvantages in not having a more genetically diverse group, since one disease almost wiped out the entire dragon race until a way was found to alter the dragons genetics to make them immune.
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** Well, while genetic inbreeding can be the death of many species, dragons here have obviously gone through many genetic bottlenecks (like with Ramoth) where you had only one or two queens. Dragons with defects either, like said above, never hatch, or never pass on genes a la Ruth. Many species of birds in island ecosystems have survived similarly, despite being very closely related, because those genetic diseases were weeded out over time.
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*** Touche. I probably should have known that already, being a biology major... ([[MostWritersAreHuman Most Writers Are Chordates]]?)
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*** Touche. I probably should have known that already, thought of that, being a biology major... ([[MostWritersAreHuman Most Writers Are Chordates]]?)
Chordates]]?) Still seems like it would be a liability during Thread time, but then again, the dragonets could teleport so there wouldn't have been much pressure ''not'' to keep their tails the way they were.
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The lack of spacing bugged me- made it hard to tell where one discussion ended and another began.
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*** Touche. I probably should have known that already, being a biology major... ([[MostWritersAreHuman Most Writers Are Chordates]]?)
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*** She'd pretty much have to have done so, since the initial batch was so small.
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***** The whole point of the stable time loop concept is that you can't change the past because the ''present'', including everything you remember about the past, has 'already' been determined by the outcome of every time jaunt backwards to a point before 'now' that's ever happened and that's ever ''going'' to happen. And since this is true for ''every'' 'now' you'd care to pick from the timeline, the future is just as set in stone as the past; if you're predestined to travel back in time to do X (because you did in fact arrive and do X in the past), you will, and if you're not, then you won't. Free will? Doesn't exist here, though nobody may be aware of that (because they never were predestined to realize it, of course).
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** The simple answer would seem to be that Kitti Ping zapped such potential genetic landmines out of the dragons when she designed the original batch. And lacking the evolutionary pressures to induce mutations (and sports like Ruth usually dieing un-hatched), a limited gene pool wouldn't hurt the dragons much.
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*My question is why all the dragons aren't suffering from major physical and mental deformities from serious inbreeding. During the 400 turns after the Weyrs disappear, Benden Weyr is eventually reduced to a single queen. When a single queen breeds with a limited selection of bronzes(sometimes only one lik ramoth with mnementh), it greatly decreases the variability of the gene pool. So why aren't dragons suffering from some major genetic diseases?
