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History Headscratchers / DoctorWho2015CSTheHusbandsOfRiverSong

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**River is after all a child of the TARDIS, a new console to her is basically "Oh mum you've moved your hair about, haven't you?" she probably noticed but its not worth commentary in the moment.
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** On the topic of "spoilers": that answers many concerns above about how River acted on Darillium and how she acts in the Library. She is trying not to give anything away. This is consistent with her character.


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** If you aren’t trying to figure something out, it is easy to miss the obvious. River wasn’t trying to figure it out, and Twelve had some fun.
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** As for the fact that Twelve openly admitted to being ''a'' doctor, that's only a clue for River if you ignore the fact that she'd ''hired a real physician'' to play a part in her diamond-theft scam, and was fully expecting Nardole to bring that accomplice to her. She justifiably ''wasn't'' expecting Nardole to show up with the wrong guy.

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*** Digging up the ship and reading about it are not mutually exclusive: archaeologists do lots of preparatory research before beginning an excavation.

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*** ** Digging up the ship and reading about it are not mutually exclusive: archaeologists do lots of preparatory research before beginning an excavation.



*** No, that can't be the explanation. In "Forest of the Dead", River explicitly tells the Doctor that they last met at the Singing Towers of Darillium. She doesn't say anything about a date, she says it was "the last time I saw you". You can watch the scene [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-wgLFj6bbI here]].
*** River said it was the last time she saw the real him, as in the one who knew her. There are audios of her meeting the eighth Doctor set after this episode. She just means it is the last time she was with the future Doctor who knew who she was. For all she knows there are dozens of other adventures for her to have, the Doctor just won't get to see her again in his future.

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*** ** No, that can't be the explanation. In "Forest of the Dead", River explicitly tells the Doctor that they last met at the Singing Towers of Darillium. She doesn't say anything about a date, she says it was "the last time I saw you". You can watch the scene [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-wgLFj6bbI here]].
*** ** River said it was the last time she saw the real him, as in the one who knew her. There are audios of her meeting the eighth Doctor set after this episode. She just means it is the last time she was with the future Doctor who knew who she was. For all she knows there are dozens of other adventures for her to have, the Doctor just won't get to see her again in his future.



[[folder: Why did Eleven go to Trenzalore, knowing he was destined to die there, without keeping his date with River -- which would have caused a potentially RealityBreakingParadox if he had died? Or did he already know he WASN'T going to die?]]
Back in Eleven's tenure, the short "Last Night" suggested he had his final meeting with River on Darillium, but this episode reveals that he managed to get out of that date. But why didn't he at least take care of that before he went to Trenzalore in "The Time of the Doctor"? That episode establishes that once he got there, he was unable to leave -- and he didn't have any more regenerations, and knew that it was the place where he was to die. If that were to happen, a RealityBreakingParadox would be created as he would never have fulfilled the meeting that River reoounted to Ten. BUT. [[StableTimeLoop The Twelfth Doctor helped save Gallifrey, and that could not have happened had the Time Lords not given him another cycle of lives, which could not have happened had Gallifrey not been saved.]] Indeed, Eleven's entire story arc could never have happened without Twelve's existence, as the whole business with the cracks in time and the Silence turned out to stem from saving Gallifrey. Did Eleven realize he was destined to live again and Trenzalore wasn't going to be his grave after all, and thus in turn realized he didn't have to worry about River Song, and just played dumb in "The Time of the Doctor" so the pieces could fall into place for him to become Twelve?

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[[folder: [[folder:Trenzalore, River, and the last date]]

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Why did Eleven go to Trenzalore, knowing he was destined to die there, without keeping his date with River -- which would have caused a potentially RealityBreakingParadox if he had died? Or did he already know he WASN'T going to die?]]
die? Back in Eleven's tenure, the short "Last Night" suggested he had his final meeting with River on Darillium, but this episode reveals that he managed to get out of that date. But why didn't he at least take care of that before he went to Trenzalore in "The Time of the Doctor"? That episode establishes that once he got there, he was unable to leave -- and he didn't have any more regenerations, and knew that it was the place where he was to die. If that were to happen, a RealityBreakingParadox would be created as he would never have fulfilled the meeting that River reoounted to Ten. BUT. [[StableTimeLoop The Twelfth Doctor helped save Gallifrey, and that could not have happened had the Time Lords not given him another cycle of lives, which could not have happened had Gallifrey not been saved.]] Indeed, Eleven's entire story arc could never have happened without Twelve's existence, as the whole business with the cracks in time and the Silence turned out to stem from saving Gallifrey. Did Eleven realize he was destined to live again and Trenzalore wasn't going to be his grave after all, and thus in turn realized he didn't have to worry about River Song, and just played dumb in "The Time of the Doctor" so the pieces could fall into place for him to become Twelve?



Related to the above Headscratcher, but dealing with a slightly different issue. In "The Name of the Doctor", a post-Library data-ghost River shows up in Trenzalore, in the future timeline where Eleven died on Trenzalore. Now, based on this episode, the entire plot of "Name" becomes inherently paradoxical. How? Its simple. River only exists as a data-ghost because Twelve gave her his sonic. But the Trenzalore that River's data-ghost shows up in is one that precludes the existence of Twelve since its in the future of a timeline where Eleven died without receiving any new regenerations. Now there are possible explanations for this - maybe the "Name" future-Trenzalore was only a bit of a 'diversion' from the natural timeline and and Eleven was always destined to become Twelve and give River his sonic. Or maybe River as a data-ghost can straddle multiple timelines, including ones where her existence as the data-ghost is impossible. In any case, it is somewhat jarring if one really thinks about River's appearance here in the larger context of Moffat's run.
* "...maybe the "Name" future-Trenzalore was only a bit of a 'diversion' from the natural timeline..." This is how I've always interpreted it. The key here is that when they go to Trenzalore the first time, Clara jumps into the Doctor's time stream. Ergo, the Trenzalore they visited was part of a time line where Clara had not yet jumped into the timeline, and therefore had not yet convinced the Time Lords to give the Doctor a new set of regenerations, etc. Essentially, a possible future, averted by their actions within it. It helps that Doctor Who Time Travel has very few set rules.
* Or maybe the graveyard ''is'' a part of the Doctor's future, just a much, much, much more ''distant'' future than was implied in "Name". No reason to assume the Curator, when ''he'' runs out of regenerations or simply doesn't feel any need or desire to use them anymore, won't pilot a dying TARDIS to the site of his long-ago sojourn on Trenzalore, park the old girl in the cemetery where Christmas once stood, fondly etch River's name into one of the tombstones, then shuffle back into his blue box and quietly pass away, secure in the knowledge that he's protected the universe from paradox one last time.

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* Related to the above Headscratcher, but dealing with a slightly different issue. In "The Name of the Doctor", a post-Library data-ghost River shows up in Trenzalore, in the future timeline where Eleven died on Trenzalore. Now, based on this episode, the entire plot of "Name" becomes inherently paradoxical. How? Its simple. River only exists as a data-ghost because Twelve gave her his sonic. But the Trenzalore that River's data-ghost shows up in is one that precludes the existence of Twelve since its in the future of a timeline where Eleven died without receiving any new regenerations. Now there are possible explanations for this - maybe the "Name" future-Trenzalore was only a bit of a 'diversion' from the natural timeline and and Eleven was always destined to become Twelve and give River his sonic. Or maybe River as a data-ghost can straddle multiple timelines, including ones where her existence as the data-ghost is impossible. In any case, it is somewhat jarring if one really thinks about River's appearance here in the larger context of Moffat's run.
* ** "...maybe the "Name" future-Trenzalore was only a bit of a 'diversion' from the natural timeline..." This is how I've always interpreted it. The key here is that when they go to Trenzalore the first time, Clara jumps into the Doctor's time stream. Ergo, the Trenzalore they visited was part of a time line where Clara had not yet jumped into the timeline, and therefore had not yet convinced the Time Lords to give the Doctor a new set of regenerations, etc. Essentially, a possible future, averted by their actions within it. It helps that Doctor Who Time Travel has very few set rules.
* ** Or maybe the graveyard ''is'' a part of the Doctor's future, just a much, much, much more ''distant'' future than was implied in "Name". No reason to assume the Curator, when ''he'' runs out of regenerations or simply doesn't feel any need or desire to use them anymore, won't pilot a dying TARDIS to the site of his long-ago sojourn on Trenzalore, park the old girl in the cemetery where Christmas once stood, fondly etch River's name into one of the tombstones, then shuffle back into his blue box and quietly pass away, secure in the knowledge that he's protected the universe from paradox one last time.



River Song enters the Doctor's TARDIS as if she owns the place and even finds a cubbyhole with alcohol the Doctor himself is unaware of. Yet she makes no remarks about the interior being changed even though the Eleventh Doctor changed the interior of the TARDIS after his last on-screen meeting with the (living) River, and the Twelfth Doctor went on to change it even further - including a new lighting scheme - after he regenerated and again prior to Series 9. Even taking into account the possibility that Eleven and River met after "The Snowmen", she's not supposed to know anything about Twelve at this point.

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* River Song enters the Doctor's TARDIS as if she owns the place and even finds a cubbyhole with alcohol the Doctor himself is unaware of. Yet she makes no remarks about the interior being changed even though the Eleventh Doctor changed the interior of the TARDIS after his last on-screen meeting with the (living) River, and the Twelfth Doctor went on to change it even further - including a new lighting scheme - after he regenerated and again prior to Series 9. Even taking into account the possibility that Eleven and River met after "The Snowmen", she's not supposed to know anything about Twelve at this point.
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* Or maybe the graveyard ''is'' a part of the Doctor's future, just a much, much, much more ''distant'' future than was implied in "Name". No reason to assume the Curator, when ''he'' runs out of regenerations or simply doesn't feel any need or desire to use them anymore, won't pilot a dying TARDIS to the site of his long-ago sojourn on Trenzalore, park the old girl in the cemetery where Christmas once stood, fondly etch River's name into one of the tombstones, then shuffle back into his blue box and quietly pass away, secure in the knowledge that he's protected the universe from paradox one last time.
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** The Doctor never ''did'' go to his anticipated death on Trenzalore by choice. He went to Trenzalore ''well after'' his predicted death in "The Name of the Doctor", because it's his ''grave'' that he went to see: he'd had no reason to expect that going there ''after'' his grave was already in place would kill him, only that it would lock down the circumstances of his eventual demise at some point in his own personal future. The other time he went to Trenzalore, in "The Time of the Doctor", he ''had no clue that's what the planet was called'' until it was already under siege and he couldn't leave: he'd come to Christmas blind to find the source of a mysterious transmission, same as all the other investigating vessels. Then he didn't get the TARDIS back for so long that he'd started to forget things, most likely including River's reminiscence about their last night.
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*** Digging up the ship and reading about it are not mutually exclusive: archaeologists do lots of preparatory research before beginning an excavation.
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*** River said it was the last time she saw the real him, as in the one who knew her. There are audios of her meeting the eighth Doctor set after this episode. She just means it is the last time she was the future Doctor who knew who she was. For all she knows there are dozens of other adventures for her to have, the Doctor just won't get to see her again in his future.

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*** River said it was the last time she saw the real him, as in the one who knew her. There are audios of her meeting the eighth Doctor set after this episode. She just means it is the last time she was with the future Doctor who knew who she was. For all she knows there are dozens of other adventures for her to have, the Doctor just won't get to see her again in his future.
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****River said it was the last time she saw the real him, as in the one who knew her. There are audios of her meeting the eighth Doctor set after this episode. She just means it is the last time she was the future Doctor who knew who she was. For all she knows there are dozens of other adventures for her to have, the Doctor just won't get to see her again in his future.
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** Alternately, Eleven didn't consider it at all. Consider: it's not until this episode that the Doctor realizes how badly he's been treating River this whole time, despite River specifically calling him out for never visiting in The Name of the Doctor. He doesn't think how awful it is that she's fully aware they'll drift apart. He has to have the significance of the diary's length pointed out to him, and he's the one who gave it to her. From his perspective, every time they meet it's Hepburn and Tracy, but she's the one left with the fallout of not knowing when they'll meet again.
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* "...maybe the "Name" future-Trenzalore was only a bit of a 'diversion' from the natural timeline..." This is how I've always interpreted it. The key here is that when they go to Trenzalore the first time, Clara jumps into the Doctor's time stream. Ergo, the Trenzalore they visited was part of a time line where Clara had not yet jumped into the timeline, and therefore had not yet convinced the Time Lords to give the Doctor a new set of regenerations, etc. Essentially, a possible future, averted by their actions within it. It helps that Doctor Who Time Travel has very few set rules.
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[[folder: The paradox of Trenzalore and Darillium]]
Related to the above Headscratcher, but dealing with a slightly different issue. In "The Name of the Doctor", a post-Library data-ghost River shows up in Trenzalore, in the future timeline where Eleven died on Trenzalore. Now, based on this episode, the entire plot of "Name" becomes inherently paradoxical. How? Its simple. River only exists as a data-ghost because Twelve gave her his sonic. But the Trenzalore that River's data-ghost shows up in is one that precludes the existence of Twelve since its in the future of a timeline where Eleven died without receiving any new regenerations. Now there are possible explanations for this - maybe the "Name" future-Trenzalore was only a bit of a 'diversion' from the natural timeline and and Eleven was always destined to become Twelve and give River his sonic. Or maybe River as a data-ghost can straddle multiple timelines, including ones where her existence as the data-ghost is impossible. In any case, it is somewhat jarring if one really thinks about River's appearance here in the larger context of Moffat's run.
[[/folder]]


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** For all we know, River could have stolen Twelve's TARDIS as well previously, without knowing who's it was. Apparently, she had some way of tracking the Doctor through time (presumably by means of TARDIS sightings) but didn't know which incarnation it would be - always assuming it would be one of the first twelve (or rather, One-Eleven plus War). So she could have stolen Twelve's TARDIS before and gotten used to this new interior, only she assumed it was the TARDIS of some other Doctor among the first twelve). Hell, she might have even stolen the TARDIS of Thirteen or Fourteen or any other potential future Doctor.
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** Presumably at some point 11 told her he was on his last regeneration. He knew during the events of Time of the Doctor that it would be his last stand, and that he would die and be buried there. He likely told her this at some point and she accepted it as fact, "knowing" that he'd never regenerate again. She clearly hasn't talked to him since the events of Time of the Doctor and didn't know that the Time Lords intervened and changed the Doctor's future. If she knew for a fact that he would only ever have 12 faces and hadn't been told otherwise, she would work from that assumption. It would be like meeting someone online and later finding out that they're really a person you already knew but had been told they died. Even if they were very similar in personality to your loved one, you likely wouldn't assume it was them if you were convinced they were dead. It's also worth noting that River does a fair bit of time travelling on her own. She likely has a few relationships with people that would require a flowchart to explain, and at this point she probably just assumes he's someone she hasn't met yet but has met her.

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** Presumably at some point 11 told her he was on his last regeneration. He knew during long before the events of Time of the Doctor that it would be his last stand, and that he would die and be buried there. He likely told her this at some point and she accepted it as fact, "knowing" that he'd never regenerate again. She clearly hasn't talked to him since the events of Time of the Doctor and didn't know that the Time Lords intervened and changed the Doctor's future. If she knew for a fact that he would only ever have 12 faces and hadn't been told otherwise, she would work from that assumption. It would be like meeting someone online and later finding out that they're really a person you already knew but had been told they died. Even if they were very similar in personality to your loved one, you likely wouldn't assume it was them if you were convinced they were dead. It's also worth noting that River does a fair bit of time travelling on her own. She likely has a few relationships with people that would require a flowchart to explain, and at this point she probably just assumes he's someone she hasn't met yet but has met her.
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** Presumably at some point 11 told her he was on his last regeneration. He knew during the events of Time of the Doctor that it would be his last stand, and that he would die and be buried there. He likely told her this at some point and she accepted it as fact, "knowing" that he'd never regenerate again. She clearly hasn't talked to him since the events of Time of the Doctor and didn't know that the Time Lords intervened and changed the Doctor's future. If she knew for a fact that he would only ever have 12 faces and hadn't been told otherwise, she would work from that assumption. It would be like meeting someone online and later finding out that they're really a person you already knew but had been told they died. Even if they were very similar in personality to your loved one, you likely wouldn't assume it was them if you were convinced they were dead. It's also worth noting that River does a fair bit of time travelling on her own. She likely has a few relationships with people that would require a flowchart to explain, and at this point she probably just assumes he's someone she hasn't met yet but has met her.

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