History Headscratchers / AceAttorneyInvestigationsMilesEdgeworth

***** [[spoiler: This troper agrees, but there is a difference between the breach of trust that his client showed which would result in punishment, and actively double-crossing him, which would cause de Killer to kill his client as revenge (as per JFA). And since de Killer determined that the president was a fake by himself, it appeared to this troper that the reason de Killer was searching for his client (or at least the reason while he talks to Edgeworth and co. on the rooftop) was to confirm his client knew about the fake president. After all, if his client didn't know that the president was a fake, then there is no breach of trust and de Killer has no reason to punish his client. What this troper noted was that there is an even bigger breach of de Killer's trust that his client was forced into committing: namely, his client hired de Killer to kill the president, then went and killed the president himself, which meant that his client actively prevent de Killer from completing the hit, and not just passively preventing it by not disclosing the target's true identity, and would thus warrant de Killer to kill his client as revenge. In fact, de Killer only starts trying to kill his client ''after'' it's revealed that his client is the true culprit, even though de Killer had to be present during all of the final show down to know that the president was a fake, and to know that his client wasn't in the dark about that fact.]] ~TheKayOne

* Also near the end of case 5, Edgeworth makes a solid case that his theory can be supported by fingerprint analysis and is permitted to do so. Normally giving the task to a prosecutor rather than a detective wouldn't be a major problem, given prior games, but isn't there a very good reason to give this task to someone else this time? After all, [[spoiler:the fingerprints that Edgeworth is trying to find are ''his own''. Wouldn't it make it trivially easy for the Big Bad to claim that he just had to secretly touch the object while making preparations and then find his own fingerprints? He's fortunate that the theory is never brought up.]]

***** [[spoiler: This troper agrees, but there is a difference between the breach of trust that his client showed which would result in punishment, and actively double-crossing him, which would cause de Killer to kill his client as revenge (as per JFA). And since de Killer determined that the president was a fake by himself, it appeared to this troper that the reason de Killer was searching for his client (or at least the reason while he talks to Edgeworth and co. on the rooftop) was to confirm his client knew about the fake president After all, if his client didn't know that the president was a fake, then de Killer has no reason to punish his client. What this troper noted was that there is an even bigger breach of de Killer's trust that his client was forced into committing: namely, his client hired de Killer to kill the president, then went and killed the president himself, which meant that his client actively prevent de Killer from completing the hit, and not just passively preventing it by not disclosing the target's true identity, and would thus warrant de Killer to kill his client as revenge. In fact, de Killer only starts trying to kill his client ''after'' it's revealed that his client is the true culprit, even though de Killer had to be present during all of the final show down to know that the president was a fake, and to know that his client wasn't in the dark about that fact.]]

***** [[spoiler: This troper agrees, but there is a difference between the breach of trust that his client showed which would result in punishment, and actively double-crossing him, which would cause de Killer to kill his client as revenge (as per JFA). What this troper noted was that there is an even bigger breach of de Killer's trust that Simon was forced into committing: namely, his client hired de Killer to kill the president, then went and killed the president himself, which meant that his client actively prevent de Killer from completing the hit, and not just passively preventing it by not disclosing the target's true identity, and would thus warrant de Killer to kill his client to protect his honor. In fact, de Killer only starts trying to kill his client ''after'' it's revealed that his client is the true culprit, even though de Killer had to be present during all of the final show down to know that the president was a fake, and to know that his client wasn't in the dark about that fact. After all, if his client didn't know that the president was a fake, then de Killer has no reason to punish his client.]]

***** [[spoiler: This troper agrees, but there is a difference between the breach of trust that his client showed which would result in punishment, and actively double-crossing him, which would cause de Killer to kill his client as revenge (as per JFA). What this troper noted was that there is an even bigger breach of de Killer's trust that Simon was forced into committing: namely, his client hired de Killer to kill the president, then went and killed the president himself, which meant that his client actively prevent de Killer from completing the hit, and not just passively preventing it by not disclosing the target's true identity, and would thus warrant de Killer to kill his client to protect his honor. In fact, de Killer only starts trying to kill his client [i/] after [/i] it's revealed that his client is the true culprit, even though de Killer had to be present during all of the final show down to know that the president was a fake, and to know that his client wasn't in the dark about that fact.]]

***** [[spoiler: Yes, but there is a difference between the breach of trust that Simon showed which would result in punishment, and actively double-crossing him, which would cause de Killer to kill his client as revenge (as per JFA). What this troper noted was that there is an even bigger breach of de Killer's trust that Simon was forced into committing: namely, Simon hired de Killer to kill the president, then went and killed the president himself, which meant that Simon actively prevent de Killer from completing the hit, and not just passively preventing it by not disclosing the target's true identity, and would thus warrant de Killer to kill Simon. In fact, de Killer only starts trying to kill Simon [i/] after [/i] it's revealed Simon is the true culprit, even though de Killer had to be present during all of the final show down to know that the president was a fake, and to know that Simon wasn't in the dark about that fact.]]

[[spoiler:True, the kidnappers could have used a reference photo for John Marsh, but that assumes that the kidnappers knew that they were after John. Since John spoken Edgeworth and co. before he was kidnapped, the kidnapping seems like a slightly rushed job so the important question is: "Who could Blaize recruit to kidnap a famous child actor on such short notice?" This poster believes that no such person exists.

However, Blaize still needs John as a hostage, so he could easily try the next best thing: hiring kidnappers without telling them that the target is John Marsh. Naturally they would need some way to identify their target, and Blaize would most likely give the most concise description of John without revealing his identity, and without wasting time (remember, rushed kidnapping). Given that John and Justine have different surnames, telling them to kidnap "the son of Justine Courtney, who is hanging around the Grand Tower”, is descriptive enough to ensure John’s kidnapping without the kidnappers knowing it. Ergo:

Fact #1: Blaize’s kidnappers know they are after "the son of Justine Courtney, who is hanging around the Grand Tower”.

Also remember that Blaize kidnapped John to get Roland an acquittal, which is the very thing the Simon Keyes wanted to avoid. Again the kidnapping of John was a rushed job, but Simon has someone willing to kidnap a famous actor on short notice: himself. And to that end, Simon kidnapped John before Blaize could, and used him to get Roland convicted. Ergo:

Fact #2: John Marsh had already been kidnapped by the time that Blaize’s kidnappers had arrived at the Grand Tower.

Since kidnapping is a crime, Simon no doubt kidnapped John without anyone knowing. Ergo:

Fact #3: Blaize’s kidnappers don’t know that their target (John) has been kidnapped.

Now Blaize’s kidnappers would continue looking of the son of Justine Courtney, which is something that they can only know by asking the target questions like “do you know Justine Courtney?” It’s also important to note that Sebastian was hanging around the lobby of the Grand Tower when he was kidnapped, and was asked by his kidnappers if he knew Courtney, to which he naturally replied yes. It is also important to note that Justine’s profession (a Judge) gives her the impression of being much older than the 26 years-old that she is, and would thus appear to be significantly older than Sebastian, who is 17-years-old and whose childish manner makes him look younger than that. Thus giving the impression that Justine is old enough to be Sebastian’s mother. Ergo:

Fact #4: While Sebastian doesn’t physically look like John in any way, he does match the description of John that the kidnappers had. ("the son of Justine Courtney” and “is hanging around the Grand Tower”). Ergo:

Fact #5: The kidnapping of Sebastian was an honest mistake on the kidnappers part (or at least as honest as a kidnapping can be)

Q.E.D.]]

[[spoiler:True, the kidnappers could have used a reference photo for John Marsh, but that assumes that the kidnappers knew that they were after John. Since John spoken Edgeworth and co. before he was kidnapped, the kidnapping seems like a slightly rushed job so the important question is: "Who could Blaize recruit to kidnap a famous child actor on such short notice?" This poster believes that no such person exists.]]

[[spoiler:True, the kidnappers could have used a reference photo for John Marsh, but that assumes that the kidnappers knew that they were after John. Since John spoken Edgeworth and co. before he was kidnapped, the kidnapping seems like a slightly rushed job so the important question is: "Who could Blaize recruit to kidnap a famous child actor on such short notice?" This poster believes that no such person exists.]]

However, Blaize still needs John as a hostage, so he could easily try the next best thing: hiring kidnappers without telling them that the target is John Marsh. Naturally they would need some way to identify their target, and Blaize would most likely give the most concise description of John without revealing his identity, and without wasting time (remember, rushed kidnapping). Given that John and Justine have different surnames, telling them to kidnap "the son of Justine Courtney, who is hanging around the Grand Tower”, is descriptive enough to ensure John’s kidnapping without the kidnappers knowing it. Ergo:

Fact #1: Blaize’s kidnappers know they are after "the son of Justine Courtney, who is hanging around the Grand Tower”.

Also remember that Blaize kidnapped John to get Roland an acquittal, which is the very thing the Simon Keyes wanted to avoid. Again the kidnapping of John was a rushed job, but Simon has someone willing to kidnap a famous actor on short notice: himself. And to that end, Simon kidnapped John before Blaize could, and used him to get Roland convicted. Ergo:

Fact #2: John Marsh had already been kidnapped by the time that Blaize’s kidnappers had arrived at the Grand Tower.

Since kidnapping is a crime, Simon no doubt kidnapped John without anyone knowing. Ergo:

Fact #3: Blaize’s kidnappers don’t know that their target (John) has been kidnapped.

Now Blaize’s kidnappers would continue looking of the son of Justine Courtney, which is something that they can only know by asking the target questions like “do you know Justine Courtney?” It’s also important to note that Sebastian was hanging around the lobby of the Grand Tower when he was kidnapped, and was asked by his kidnappers if he knew Courtney, to which he naturally replied yes. It is also important to note that Justine’s profession (a Judge) gives her the impression of being much older than the 26 years-old that she is, and would thus appear to be significantly older than Sebastian, who is 17-years-old and whose childish manner makes him look younger than that. Thus giving the impression that Justine is old enough to be Sebastian’s mother. Ergo:

Fact #4: While Sebastian doesn’t physically look like John in any way, he does match the description of John that the kidnappers had. ("the son of Justine Courtney” and “is hanging around the Grand Tower”). Ergo:

Fact #5: The kidnapping of Sebastian was an honest mistake on the kidnappers part (or at least as honest as a kidnapping can be)

Q.E.D.]]

** It's not really something he can object to. Edgeworth is pointing out that if his prints are there, then the truck had to have been elsewhere (at the tower) prior to this because his prints couldn't have gotten on it otherwise, and there's multiple witnesses to corroborate that Edgey never went near that truck at the circus. It seems like Ema was the one who actually retrieved the print itself, so Miles couldn't have falsified its presence then either.

* In case 5, we find out Sebastian [[spoiler:gets kidnapped by his father's men, whom the latter mistook the former for Courtney's son. How on earth did they make that mistake? Sebastian is 17-years-old and a whopping 5'7" tall (by Japanese standards) while John is 13-years-old and established to be short for his age (4'9" tall) with neither boys looking anything like each other. Considering John is a child actor, could they not have looked up a picture to use as a reference when trying to find John?]]

** Regarding the balloon murder, incidentally, how did that even happen? Unless Simon had a way to rapidly empty the balloon of its air and drop near-instantly to the rooftop, it seems likely that the body double would have had time to get out of the way of the slowly descending balloon. And if it had come crashing down, wouldn't there have been some signs of impact damage to the largely wicker basket? Admittedly I'm also not a hot air balloon expert, so those baskets might be sturdier than they look.

[[/folder]]

** I think I kind of see what the original poster is driving at and why he feels that way after mulling on it. The problem is two-fold: [[spoiler:there is a judge who can't be impartial and a defense attorney who is biased against their client and both are due to EconomyCast reasons. For the first one, Judge Courtney (Mikagami) shouldn't be allowed to preside over the case. She was assigned to help run the investigation but for some reason, because she's a judge, the game also makes her the presiding judge over the trial of the same case she helped investigate. She was present for the solution to the crime and didn't dismiss Edgeworth's final thesis on the order of events, so she's already accepted the fact of the case. They could have dragged the Judge's Brother down from Canada to correct this or something but instead, because she's a major figure in the game, she is the sitting judge (granted they make it a plot point that she is the presiding judge but the plan itself should have been flawed by expecting a clear conflict of interests to be overlooked as it was). Then there's the issue of Raymond (Tateyuki). Now, prior to Raymond being called up, Roland (Miwa) was going to be defended by Jill Crane (Tsubasa Kagome), an unrelated third party who herself would have no reason to doubt her client. However when she dies in case 4, the job is passed over to the only other defense attorney on the cast: Raymond. Again, conflict of interest created by the same incident Justine was a part of (Raymond can't believe Patricia is innocent because he was there for the resolution as well). This wouldn't be so bad for the reasons stated by the previous post but Raymond actually says to Justine that there's no way his client can be innocent and both she and him know it. This paints Raymond's actions as just a dog-and-pony show that he puts on for the sake of his role in the courtroom and there is no genuine reason for him to be putting on a legitimate defense]].

* I feel like I read into this the wrong way but Ray asks [[spoiler:amnesic Kay]] for hugs when she's not feeling like herself and she agrees when she didn't feel comfortable getting them normally, forcing Edgeworth to step in and shoo him away. Makes Ray look a tad sleazy, no (and at least to me threw in some "[[FridgeLogic Fridge-]]CharacterDevelopment" that kind of poo-pooed his character a bit)?

* I feel like I read into this the wrong way but Ray asks [[spoiler:amnesic Kay]] for hugs when she's not feeling like herself and she agrees when she didn't feel comfortable getting them normally, forcing Edgeworth to step in and shoo him away. Makes Ray look a tad sleazy, no?

** I think the answer to this is what did Edgeworth know about that object's relevance going in? If the culprit did try to argue he's being set up in this fashion, the discussion could simply shift to Edgeworth trying to prove that he didn't really know about the object's connection to the order of events until he stood in front of the culprit and started the discussion. Either way, it gets wedged for the culprit on this line of questioning because the hard fact is Edgeworth didn't know what he had touched before would end up playing a role in their current suspicion.

** I think the answer to this is what did Edgeworth know about that going in? If the culprit did try to argue he's being set up in this fashion, the discussion could simply shift to Edgeworth trying to prove that he didn't really know about the object's connection to the order of events until he stood in front of the culprit and started the discussion. Either way, it gets wedged for the culprit on this line of questioning because the hard fact is Edgeworth didn't know what he had touched before would end up playing a role in their current suspicion.

** This is easily explained. In Phoenix's and Apollo's cases, the prosecution doesn't want to find the truth persay but to rather just arrest all people who could be the killer. The whole point of These cases is that they are seem from ONE viewpoint, the polices, however Phoenix/Apollo change the viewpoint to see it from their eyes. Edgeworth (in AAI)wants the truth and thinks through things from his own viewpoint. Not to mention that the WHOLE POLICE FORCE is a little bit different from just one single prosecutor who happens to find the truth.