This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Dentaku: Please take discussions about Schrodingers Cat here. It is indeed a form of Adaptation Decay and it is also mentioned on that page. In all honesty, it is never explicitly mentioned in the anime that Angelica died, and since the sequel simply follows the remaining manga the makers took a logical route: they let her recover. It's a shame that it makes the impact of first season's last episode a lot less, but that's how it is.
Dentaku: I am not fond of the character of Petrushka myself, but I don't get the idea she is really hated that much by the fandom in general. She usually gets fairly positive responses in most forums I read, even though most people do pick up on the fact that she's clearly Ms. Fanservice.
Cassy: Am I the only one who really likes Petra or what? She sure Needs More Love.
Toteone: ...
Space Drake: Yes, you'd be the only one. Really.
Also, while I realize the Wesley entry is rather... verbose, I really do think that the situation surrounding the characters is really beyond the scope of a single sentence to sum up properly. I would rather err on the side of being informative on this one.
Copy: I like her, and I know others that like her as well. Although, I can say that she isn't my most liked out of the other girls... She's still a great character herself. The author is trying out a new sandbox or two. It could lead to a more interesting development. More possibilities are possible with an "older" character. And the relationship between the two is different from the others, and that itself brings some new elements and a different environment when the focus shifts on that pair. But that's what makes it nice, imo. The only problem is the focus she gets. And that's what irritates some fans in the fandom. But, seems to be many are just hating her because of the attention she gets, which took up the other girls' time. But recently, things have returned to normal already. With Triela bonuses, though.
I'm strongly feeling that the entry for the Wesley is edging a bit on the rant side. Being a Wesley in the eyes of some is one thing, and another. Not to mention, the insinuation tactics are grating and blatant. Also, the entry lacks credential. Plus, there is too much exaggeration in the entry with "united" and "utter". I don't know about the Japanese fans, but for Western fans... Like with what Dentaku said, she does have a fair amount of positive love/like among the fans. So, the hate really looked more like it's coming from a vocal group within the fandom.
I can't help but to notice most of the edits for that entry were done by the same few people(not pointing fingers). I really am tempted to clean some parts of the entry.
DT: I took the initiative and just axed the entry on "The Wesley," while making some note of the controversy elsewhere (most notably a new entry for "Your Mileage May Vary." Personally, in order for Petra to actually qualify as a Wesley, I think two things need to happen -first, it needs to be proven that she's a scrappy in the eyes of the majority of the fandom, and second of all someone needs to give a proper source for the claim that the author has openly aknowledged her as his favorite character. I've heard the claim before, but no one has ever presented me with a solid source for it (and I know that things can get twisted over time as they get passed around).
Dr Dedman: Given how slow the series moves it may take a while to happen, but Petra is clearly being set up as a Honey Trap in training (look at what her handler is, and his history). This could be tragic, squicky, or both (add The Little Drummer Girl to the list of "inspirations" if this happens).
Space Drake: Given the obvious schism here, I can accept the Petra Thing(TM) being shifted to YMMV. So long as it's noted, everything is good.
Muninn: Adaptation Decay? Granted, I haven't exactly spent much time comparing the two, but I'd say that the second season was fairly faithful to the manga. Anybody want to expand on that?
Space Drake: Certain parts of the plot were changed (for example, in the first episode when 'Etta "hugs" Guise's shirt, she smiles instead of grimaces as she does in the manga - seems minor, except that the one little change completely alters the meaning of the scene and this percolates into every other facet of the on-screen relationship between the two), and compared to season one especially, the animation and music were horrid. Really, watch episode 1 of season one then episode 1 of season two. You'll only barely be able to tell it's supposed to be the same franchise. Especially given that manga volumes 3 to 5 - what season two was based off of - are largely considered the best material in the franchise, people went into the show expecting something on par with season one and were rightfully disappointed.
Dr Dedman: She isn't grimacing just not smilling (a little more ecstasy, less happy-happy). The art isn't up to the first season, but the plotting is pretty much of a piece (again, rearanged and combined for better flow, but little altered). The decay is all in the looks, plot-wise it's just nitpicking (heck, the original writer was in on production of the second season).
Dr Dedman: ANN didn't convince me. "No shades of Grey"? The whole overarcing plot is nothing but shades of grey! We're asked to root for Triela devoting herself to destroying another assasin who is in most ways her mirror image (and not really in an "evil counterpart" way). Also the fact that most of the girls are happy to be killers is kind of the point. Even Henrietta doesn't have moral crisises, she's just worried about pleasing Jose. There are 2 issues that seem to drive a lot of the hate (and I think it's a vocal minority). First, the animation is not anywhere near as good (not bad for TV, but nowhere near season 1, and episode 1 is easily the worst of them). Second, while the Pinochio arc pays off in season, much of the side stuff doesn't pay off until volumes 9-10 of the manga. We only see half of the whole Triela/Hirscher background. By the end of season 2 we know why Hirscher is the way he is, and we can guess most of the rest of the background. But it doesn't pay off until Triela learns the story.
Put in simpler terms, Triela's tragedy is that she is aware of her situation and eventual fate. Her way of establishing her own identity is to be the best killer around. Losing to Pinochio hurts her because it damages her sense of identity (and what little control she has). She's doing the best she can with a bad deal, and her handler's tragedy is that this that this bad deal is better than the alternative (or so he keeps telling himself).
None of the girls understand or care much about the political complexities driving their missions. Triela and Claes understand them, but they really can't affect anything. Petra is trying to understand it, and it's one of several points of contention building between her and Sandro (who is trying very hard to be amoral and not care about anything).
Dr Dedman: About the brothers' names. I know that Jose, Joseph and Guiseppe are the same name, I'm saying that, in-story (manga chapter 66) their grandfather (in Jean's flashback) calls them "Jean" (okay could be "Jan", and it looks like it's spelled "Gian" on his uniform) and "Josepho". We already know that their dad's name was Giovani, so this points to a cosmopolitan naming covention for the family (which I'd guess comes from their mother). I don't know if the author planned this, or changed it as he went, but their names at the agency are their real names. Apparently they are pronounced in the Italian way (thus Jose with a voiced "J", and "Gian"), but not translated.
Dr Dedman: Ariana, when I say "not romantic" about Victor/Triela I'm going by the proper definition of the word. "Idealized or having an emotional basis. Impractical" Triela loves Hartman to pieces (though it's still a bit father/daughter), but she has her eyes open. She knows she doesn't have long, and isn't going to hold her feelings inside. She also knows and understands how over his head Hartman is (he's a white knight in a very grey world), and has taken the dominant role in the partnership. She is going to die soon, it's strongly implied she isn't going to leave Hartman in his current possition when she's gone.
Compare this with Petra. She idolizes Alexandro to a degree that makes him uncomfortable. Victor is an idealist (a romantic if you will), Alex isn't. Alex doesn't feel a connection to the rest of humanity (which made him ideal for his old job), with the exception of his old mentor. Petra still has a lot of Elizabeth's single-minded drive, Alex is a diletante who is almost self-centered enough to be a sociopath (he has too much self-loathing to be truely psychotic). Petra has placed Alex on a pedestal he can never live up to (and feels uncomfortable trying), his defense is to fall back on the old charm. THAT is romance (note the idolization/delusion), and it probably isn't going to end well.
Volume 7 shows the contrast in these pairings in full relief. Victor is all about protecting the prosecutor, Alex comments that from a political standpoint, she'd be better as a martyr. Alex can throw empty compliments at Triela's "adult" appearance all day, Victor can't (it's too sad). It's no great surprise that Triela connects with people (and the other girls) so well (Claes thinks this is what keeps her alive), while Petra is a bit of a loner. Victor loves humanity, and will/has sacrificed himself to serve it. Alex doesn't even love himself.
Ariana: If you go by this definition of "romantic", then I would have to agree. Though I still do think Triela sees Victor as more than a father figure or a friend and "affectionate" doesn't quite describe it. I will edit the entry on tsundere to "Triela, arguably" and if anyone wants to put those old comments back, feel free to do so.
Dr Dedman: Oh, I agree that Triela's personality is loaded with tsundere (Aida even makes several explicit links with another famous one). What I was trying to emphasize is that Triela/Victor isn't about "will they or won't they", it's about coming to terms with your "parent". Triela not just the "big sister" to the girls, she's the only cyborg who displays empathy and free-will (Rico shoots the boy, Triela lets Marco go — Even though she understands what he did), "independence" if you will.
She's the way she is because of Victor, (I wish "IT" had kept "Why aren't you in school?") and she's not sure whether to appreciate or resent it (free will = confusion). This goes double when she finds out he's responsible for her "nature", not just her "nurture". All he can say is "sorry" (he did the best he could). Triela after vol. 10 has forgiven and accepted "daddy", and seems to have promoted herself to parent (of the cyborgs, and really Victor too) she isn't any bigger, but she has grown up.
