Archived Discussion Characters / TengenToppaGurrenLagann

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Thunder Phoenix: Well, I gave it a start. I'll try to fill in the last couple of examples in a day or two. Unless someone else wants to.

Jesus Christ: Really, Karen? Really? Removed your trolling.

Septimo: Unless you justify what makes Nia a Mary Sue, I will keep editing it out. The one element from the Purity Sue trope that fits Nia is perfectly delivered in the already stated Naive Everygirl trope. And she was as much of a Messiah as Kamina or Simon. Try to justify your edit next time.

Gloating Swine: Actually, I'd say she's pretty much the absolute pinnacle of Mary Sue. Absolutely everyone loves her from the second she's introduced, the laws of physics simply do not allow some of the most badass people in all anime to be even slightly mean to her, and she turns into the main character's instant love interest, and the main reason he takes a level in badass. There are actual justifications for all of this (the cast's reaction to her helps to highlight Simon's isolation and make his badass levelup even more badass, and no-one can be mean to her because her quasi-Raised by Wolves nature invokes the Rule of Funny when they try and she doesn't get it, but she's still a Mary Sue (so much so, in fact, that it can only have been deliberate). (Also, hell, she's even Too Good for This Sinful Earth)

Septimo: Everyone loves Kamina from the minute he is introduced. He is able to steal a ganmen through sheer willpower when no-one else was able to. Every girl in the show loved him and he actually outshined the main character repeatedly. He is not a Gary Stu due to his personality and development. A Mary Sue is a Mary Sue due to the personality. Her dad designed her like you design a doll, so her appearance was a sad reminder that she was only ever intended to be classified as a thing, rather than a person. Nia herself tried to gain her own identity through the show, she never got over Lord Genome considering her unworthy and just tried her best to become someone that could face Simon as an equal. Her nature was wordy and curious yet she ultimately grew into someone that could understand Simon without silly questions. She went through so much development it’s impossible to consider her a Purity Sue.

The Relationship Sue argument is even sillier unless you actually thought they were ever going to pair Simon with Yoko. Considering Gurren-Lagann’s writing staff was composed of males, there was nothing self-insert-ish about her. She was a character planned from the beginning of the show.

Gloating Swine: Except, of course, as soon as Nia appears, Simon forgets any attraction he had for Yoko completely. Seriously, Nia is aptly described by any number of Canon Sue subtypes. Also, remember that Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann positively revels in tropes of all kinds, the fact that they wrote in a character of this type deliberately is far from inconcievable.

Septimo: You're killing your argument completely now. Give me solid and concrete examples. Simon’s feelings for Yoko were, and remained, of genuine friendship. Any “romantic” interest Simon could hold for her was either a product of, like you clearly stated, naivety or, to a degree, lust. I don’t think he immediately got over the crush after Kamina died, but Nia’s intervention obviously had everything to do with it. By episode 13, when Yoko finally decided to confront Simon about their relationship, he was already infatuated with Nia and took the declaration with a serene face of acceptance.

A Canon Sue is never used to develop a character. Like I said, every single "Sue" Trope Nia fits in has already been described by the Naive Every Girl.

Charred Knight: wasn't the whole point of Gurren Lagann to get as much sue types as possible. I have never been a fan of the definition of Mary sue including the words "poorly written", I consider Admiral Thrawn a Villain Sue (he definatly has taken on this in later writing);

Gloating Swine: Read the opening definition of Purity Sue, it's an almost point for point explanation of Nia's character (Hell, they probably read that page and then realised she needed a Tragic Death in order to complete the trope). The most telling, however, and the absolute key part of Mary Sue as a character is the reaction of the cast to her. Being a self-insert doesn't matter, being the absolute most perfect and popular being in existence does. I don't know who it was who described her on the Lethal Chef page, but they nailed it. Sparkly Princess Jesus.

Septimo: Nia earned the love from the Gurren-Dan by defying Adiane without a mech. The Gurren-Dan weren't the kind of people to hold hate or cold feelings towards anybody. You’re ignoring the rest of my argument about her development and role in the story while focusing on one single, little, element of the Mary Sue definition to make a point. If “love from the rest of the cast” is what creates a Mary Sue, then tell me why isn’t Kamina a Gary Stu while Nia is actually a Mary Sue? Both earned the respect of their peers and were socially awkward while putting up a strong facade hiding their fears and insecurities in the underneath. They relied on Simon to be strong, they weren't flawless at all.

Gloating Swine: No, she didn't. When she first spoke to Adiane and they found out who she was they instantly marked her as an enemy. And so they provided her an enormous and lavish feast. Seriously, the physical laws of the universe did not allow them to be even slightly mean to her, and when Kittan tried, hilarity ensued. If that's not Sue, nothing is. (Conversely, most characters actually don't instantly like Kamina, only the female ones (and Leeron). Most people think he's a complete idiot until he actually does something Beyond the Impossible, and proves that he's a heroic complete idiot.)

Septimo: You're twisting the definition of a Sue. A Sue is a perfect character, not a lucky character. A Sue may even be hated by the actual cast, that doesn't make a Sue not a Sue. They don't instantly liked Nia either, she earned their trust after defying Adiane during their second encounter. You're using small examples of comedic relief that were only used to show how different Nia, an aristocratic sheltered girl, was from the Gurren-Dan, a bunch of brave brutes.

Gloating Swine: No, I'm not. The reactions to Mary Sue as a character are how they're shown to be so Perfect And Wonderful. Everyone in the fiction loves them, no matter what they do. And whilst the example was also comic relief, it's also a perfect example of exactly what I'm talking about. Even when they've just found out Nia is the daughter of their arch enemy, no-one in the Gurren Brigade can seriously entertain even being mean to her, let alone actually threatening her in any way. .

Septimo: Nobody loved Nia in your example. They were just unaware of how to deal with her and she misunderstood the reactions. She did nothing to inspire fear or anger in them. The brutes at the Gurren-Dan are the kind to never hit women; they knew nothing of her past, so they had nothing to attack her with. That sequence doesn’t make her a Sue. A Sue is a Sue due to talents, abilities, traits and, more importantly, killing suspension of disbelief. You're not making a compelling argument. Nia wasn't a Sue because she had flaws, she was weak and the only reason she didn't grew into a cynical and depressed girl was through her meeting with Simon. Simon was similarly weak and it was only together that they became strong.

Gloating Swine: Yeah, that massive feast was there because they really didn't like her. Right... Everyone is enraptured by Nia from the, and even the revelation that she's the Spiral King's daughter doesn't put a dent in that. From the moment she appears the entire cast crowds around her, a reaction that no other character, even Yoko couldn't muster. Even the weather can't resist, (as soon as she steps out of the box in episode 9, the rain and grey pallettes that had been the episode to that point instantly vanish). Seriously, she's such a Mary Sue that the laws of physics change for her (not out of place in this series, of course).

Septimo: The massive feast was there because it was cooked by Coco-Ji, Nia's butler. Yoko wasn't out of place in the Gurren-Dan, it's silly to compare her to Nia. Why would they gather around a girl that was always there? Nia was a newcomer that Simon himself brought. She was dressed unlike any other woman they had ever seen. It was common development. If a character doesn't break suspension of disbelief that character isn't a Sue. That's the basic definition of the trope.

Gloating Swine: Coco-ji showed up and joined in Episode 6. He didn't come as a package with Nia. The fact that she picked up an instant butler supports the "everyone loves her" position. Also, Nia is not the only newcomer the Gurren Brigade ever got, she is not the only one with a unique dress sense. She is the only one that the entire Gurren Brigade queues up in the hall to catch a glance at. And why would anyone be interested in Yoko?

Septimo: Actually, Old Coco was Nia's butler from long before he ever met the Gurren-Dan in episode 6. He was a beastman created by Lord Genome to serve her as a princess. Nia is the newcomer the depressed Simon took back with him and she is the only Gurren-Dan member dressed in jewelry. A Mary Sue breaks suspension of disbelief and Nia never broke suspension of disbelief. Her character was justified by the storytelling. Nia wasn't a Mary Sue, Nia was just a main character.

About Yoko... why would anyone be interested in Yoko when she was always there? That was my point. She was just part of the gang for them.

Gloating Swine: And until Nia shows up, they're all very interested. Exactly the same as they are on the Beach Episode, that's why the Ms. Fanservice subversion works there. But as soon as Nia shows up, without a hint of fanservice, she's the instant center of attention.

Septimo: Really? In episode 8 and 9 they don't show any interest whatsoever in Yoko. Why are you ignoring my Old Coco explanation? It's like I can give as many counterarguments as necessary yet you ignore them.

Septimo: On a different note... how is Rossiu a Scrappy?

Gloating Swine: Same way any character is. The entire fandom hates him.

Septimo: That's not what I meant. A subjective, "just for fun", trope should not be included in a Wiki page.

Gloating Swine: Then boy have you got a lot of editing to do. It's rarer to find a main page around here that doesn't include subjective tropes.

Septimo: I don't care about other entires. I'll just do my best to keep my fandom clean from this.

Charred Knight: we include them when a large portion of the fandom believe in it. A large (about 99.9%) find Rossiu annoying. Jar Jar Binks had a larger fanbase percent wise. Its important to list that Rossiu is The Scrappy since its important information on the reception of him.

Septimo: Really? Most of the people I've talked with think Rossiu was justified and just misguided.

Charred Knight: YOU DO IT FOR ALL OR NONE! It makes it much more easier to just have rules for all of the examples. We don't want people shoving their opinions down other people's throats. You are getting annoying, and you need to stop.

Septimo: I don't think I'm the one shoving my opinions down other people throats. The fact that Nia is a Mary Sue is a misconception. There is no solid justification for such a claim and editing it into this entry pretty much shoving the editors opinion down others' throats.

Charred Knight: Its a misconception according to you, the fact that you admit that a lot of people believe this (or it wouldn't be a misconception) is proof that you are the one shoving your opion down people's throats. From everything I have seen and heard, she's a Purity Sue, she's to perfect for words, and her death basically ruins Simon.

Septimo: Most people don't really believe this, actually. I said misconception because it fits the conversation. If I got people from Live Journal to get together on the Gurren-Lagann community to voice for the fact that Nia is not a Mary Sue, would that make my argument more valid. Nia is not too perfect for words, she was weak and relied on Simon to become a strong woman. How is that perfect? She was burdened with the doll identity through her entire life and was only thanks to this relationship. Simon's death would have completely ruined her, too. Without Simon, she wouldn't appear as flawless. Similarly, Simon appeared flawless after becoming Nia's lover but it was only due to their relationship. Please, oversimplification is not a valid argument.

Gloating Swine: If you aren't trying to force your opinion on others, why did you put a line on the main page that it apparently "would not accept edits without discussion". (I deleted that, too. This is not The Other Wiki.). Hell, you were pretty much trolling for an edit war with that one, TV Tropes does not work that way, you do not run the place.

Septimo: You're right and I apologize about that. I just wanted to bring the discussion here so the Main Page would remain unaware of this discussion since the discussion zone was created for discussion. But I'm not trying to force my opinion on others more than you are trying to force your opinion on others.

Gloating Swine: Except, of course, you are the one demanding justification for an edit (and then dismissing that justification when provided, despite how well Nia fits the Purity Sue trope), despite the fact that a number of people have made the same edit, meaning that it is a relatively commonly held position. (The adding and deleting of Sue status has happened to Nia before), and keep reverting that edit, no matter how many people keep adding it.

Septimo: I've worked my arguments about how Nia's Purity Sue fit is superficial and the only features she shares from such a trope are actually common place among other less negative tropes. I've even detailed how the character was flawed and grew through the show. If anything, Nia was a subversion on the Purity Sue trope since the only reason she appeared perfect was the fact that she was only designed as Genome's doll and that made for her biggest character flaw: insecurity.

And it was only edited back twice BY THE SAME PERSON WITH THE SAME IP. By the looks of it, I'm not the only one that disagrees with such a statement, too.

Gloating Swine: And then me and Charred Knight. And Nia's overriding features are the instant fascination for her that persists long after she's joined the main cast, the fact that her entire role in the show is the main character's love interest, and everything that happens to her furthers that role, and that she's Too Good for This Sinful Earth. And you know what, that's deliberate, because Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is a show that knows it's tropes and revels in them and makes us love them, even if you think they're "negative".

Septimo: You can't call every single Love Interest that ultimately dies a Mary Sue, that's what you're inferring and certainly not a very compelling argument. And she doesn't fit the Too Good for This Sinful Earth, not even one single bit. I know Gurren-Lagann is a show that revels in tropes, but Purity Sue is not a trope. It's not a narrative intention. It's a subjective term for fanfiction that delves in negative undertones. Just look at the pictured definition: "Commence vomiting" or at the Wikipedia terminology:

"...the term "Mary Sue" carries the strong connotation of wish-fulfillment. For this reason, it is commonly associated with self-insertion, the literal writing of oneself into a fictional story. However, a true self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; many—perhaps most—characters described as "Mary Sues" are not literal self-insertions, though they are frequently said to be "proxies"[5] or stand-ins of some sort for the author. The negative connotation of the term comes from this very "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is regarded as being a poorly-developed character, one who is too perfect, too beautiful/handsome, too lacking in three-dimensionality to be accepted as realistic or interesting."

Nia's positive traits are found in every single Disney Princess and they aren't burdened by the Purity Sue terminology.

Gloating Swine: If Purity Sue is not a Trope, why do we have a Trope for it? Seriously, Nia fits that trope, as it is defined by this wiki, not The Other Wiki, she fits it almost perfectly. That's why I re-added it, that's why Charred Knight re-added it. The fact that the trope has negative connotations have nothing to do with whether we should mention it or not, only whether it fits, and it does.

Septimo: But she barely fits the trope. She isn't perfect, she isn't aware of her own inexistent perfection and she only born for Genome's play and the Anti-Spiral's convenience. She is insecure, a Purity Sue is flawless. No character other than Simon was competing for her charms and nothing she does is perfect. Canonically, everything she really puts her heart in will go wrong.

1313Jr.1313: Are you seriously suggesting that not only is she not the personification of this trope, but she doesn't even fit it? Every aspect of the trope that could apply in this situation not only does, but this is as close to overkill for this trope as it gets. And character development? Just... just wow.

Read: People have provided plenty of reasons as to why Nia isn't a Purity Sue while quoting specific examples of the actual TV show. So if you want to edit something at least try to defend your point with actual arguments rather than just empty statements. Here is our own defintion of a Mary Sue:

"Oh, sure, she might smile, offer encouragement, write articles, and other such things, but she gets such a disproportionately positive response that breaks the Willing Suspension Of Disbelief."

"The important underlying element here, however, is that the character doesn't really do anything to truly justify the treatment she receives. Decidedly subjective traits and actions have other characters latch onto her. It's the fact that the other characters are just filling the blanks and elevating her to her superior position of specialness that makes her one of these."

There you go. These are the necessary traits of a Sue: breaking suspension of disbelief by having unnatural interactions with other characters. Nia never broke suspension of disbelief nor had any kind of decidedly subjective action latched onto her. She was well-regarded by the gang because she stood for them against Adiane and they discovered she was abandoned by her father. The Gurren Brigade is composed of a bunch of kind-hearted fools. They're not "badasses" like the article implies but rather brutes with good intentions. It's impossible for such a type of personality to not be charmed by someone of a more sophisticated background who has suddenly been thrown away by her previous environment. It's the "lost little puppy" syndrome. No blanks are filled by the rest of the cast.

And please tell me you’re not seriously inferring she got no character development when it was her development the driving force of the second arc and the finale itself.

1313Jr.1313: first, please write your name in there... second and more to the point; there is no denying that she is a sue. look at the facts.

1, first simon has a huge crush on yoko. nia shows up. simon suddenly could care less... now you may be thinking to yourself, "BUT SHE IS MORE HIS AGE AND IT'S ONLY FITTING THAT HE FALLS IN LOVE WITH SOMEONE HIS OWN AGE." or "SEX APPEAL ISN'T EVERYTHING LOLOLOL!!!1" cue number 2:

2, everybody tries to perv out on yoko (she is ms.fanservice after all). they go to the beach and nia shows up. mind you, up until this point, nobody has shown any pedophilia tendencies. now suddenly yoko is COMPLETELY INVISIBLE. oh, but that's not all in the SAME EPISODE.

3, then what happens? nia is suddenly better at everything than everyone (except for her cooking [not revealed until a much later episode], which for no adequately explored reason OUR HERO LOVES).

the list goes on and on and on and on and on ad nauseum. the only possible argument is that she is so strongly a DIFFERENT sue that purity sue doesn't fit, but even that logic is crushed by the fact that a character could be more than one sue at once. that all being said, do not be offended if you actually liked nia. being a sue isn't necessarily a bad thing. for people who love her who don't normally like sues, that is not a good enough reason for her to not be a sue.

Read: Read is my name. And were you not paying attention to the show at all?

1. Simon's crush on Yoko died with Kamina. Plain and simple. The only reason he ever took a liking for Yoko was that she was the first girl to show some kindness to him. It was the childish delusion of a lonely boy. Nia was someone so different, down-to-earth and taking Simon's worth by mere virtue of him being Simon that it would be silly for him to keep himself attached to a Yoko that feels nothing for him; a Yoko he dis-attached himself from after Kamina died.

2. GAG EPISODE. It wasn't a serious episode you're supposed to take at face value. It was shown from Yoko's POV. Nia was skilled at beach games, but that was it. People were infatuated with Nia due to the previously mentioned "Lost Puppy Syndrome". She was a former princess with an elegance they had never seen before. If the episode had been shown from Simon's POV or Nia's POV, things would have been very different

3. Good at everything? She can't pilot a mech. She can't fight. She can't cook. She can't repair or research. A "better than everyone else" Sue-trait needs to have relevant foundation, something that actually breaks the reality of the narrative.

Honestly speaking, you're grasping at straws here. Nia never broke suspension-of-disbelief and breaking suspension-of-disbelief is the #1 trait of a Sue.

1313Jr.1313: Read, you put your name there but the other editor did not. that comment was not aimed at you. back to the topic, the following quotes are taken WORD FOR WORD (and content for content) from our purity sue page:

"A Purity Sue can be male or female without too significant a difference, but has a strong tendency towards the latter." ok, this really doesn't say much and i will acknowledge that... i'd just rather not miss anything.

"It is a character that is intentionally made by the author to be overtly positive." in this context it would be unprovable either way so she is exempt from this test.

"They almost never have any flaws that actually impact them in a way that truly matters, usually going for endearing traits such as "clumsiness" or naiveté, instead getting overloaded with overwhelmingly positive but largely passive traits (i.e. beauty, innocence, etc.)." so far fitting her to a t. but what is her endearing flaw? she cooks badly but nobody will own up and tell her ("how cute" [note that this only points out her "perfection" even more]). please also note that this endearing flaw hardly counts as a flaw since OUR HERO loves her cooking for no adequately explored reason (up to this point he has had the EXACT same taste in food as everyone else with no noted difference).

"The character will usually be soft spoken, have a pleasant voice, and be mild-mannered. Often, the traits verge towards the ethereal, with auras, non-human lineage, and other such things." soft spoken? yes. pleasant voice? yes, softest in the series. mild-mannered? yes. non-human lineage? yes.

"She's usually cast as a passive motivator of other people, inspiring people to strive towards the author's goals by her very presence alone. Oh, sure, she might smile, offer encouragement, write articles, and other such things, but she gets such a disproportionately positive response that it breaks the Willing Suspension Of Disbelief." this is what did it for me. she says things THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN SAID to motivate people to do all of the above. she essentially says things that should have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER compared to what has already been said (since that's pretty much what it is) and yet it both inspires our hero to get out of his slump AND inspires the entire group to believe in our hero.

"Purity Sue pretty much exists to be loved by everybody for being (as the plot tries to suggest) "perfect" (or close enough) in every way that matters." name one person who showed any sort of dislike for her for more than a minute (and the minute part is only when they find out she's the spiral king's daughter... she's the daughter of our arch-enemy and we're mad at her FOR ONE MINUTE).

"If it's less about the character's actions and more just about everybody's fascination with the character, it definitely belongs here." since we've established that she really doesn't do crap, it can't possibly be about the character's actions and thus MUST be more (anything is greater than 0 except for 0 and if both were 0 then she wouldn't exist to begin with) about everybody's fascination with her. in fact, in any scene where she's in a room with more than one person the show revolves around her FOR NO REASON despite there being more pressing matters at hand.

rather than try to argue using YOUR points (i'm grouping you with sept, no offense, but am also including all above stated points that while not refuted were simply ignored), i'll just start with scratch and allow you to see the error of your ways. again, i know that you may like purity sue/nia and just because she's a sue doesn't mean you can't like her.

Read: "so far fitting her to a t. but what is her endearing flaw? she cooks badly but nobody will own up and tell her ("how cute" [note that this only points out her "perfection" even more]). please also note that this endearing flaw hardly counts as a flaw since OUR HERO loves her cooking for no adequately explored reason (up to this point he has had the EXACT same taste in food as everyone else with no noted difference)."

I would say being useless is negative-trait that affects the character and her role in the show in a fairly important way. How is she perfect when she can't do anything by herself? It's not like she can pilot a mech or her speeches ever stopped the enemy from attacking. Not to mention her flaw of being out-there and without any kind of survival instinct is as big as a flaw as anything Yoko or Kittan had: it got them in trouble but they were ultimately saved by Simon and learned nothing in the end. Other than Simon's cowardly nature at the beginning of the show or Rossiu's "ends-justify-the-means" philosophy; characters only had flaws that made them more likable to the spectator.

"soft spoken? yes. pleasant voice? yes, softest in the series. mild-mannered? yes. non-human lineage? yes."

This is already included in both the Everything Is Better With Princesses and Mysterious Waif tropes; they're not real Sue traits as much as they're specifications.

"this is what did it for me. she says things THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN SAID to motivate people to do all of the above. she essentially says things that should have NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER compared to what has already been said (since that's pretty much what it is) and yet it both inspires our hero to get out of his slump AND inspires the entire group to believe in our hero."

Wait... when did Nia ever motivated people to fight? In episode 10, Nia earned their trust by standing against Adiane despite risking her life to do so. That was it. No words or motivation involved. And Simon? She didn't inspired Simon. Not even Kamina inspired Simon. Simon inspired Simon. Nia gave Simon something to fight for; she was her beacon. Simon was a fighter by nature; he wasn't someone to save the world but he was someone of great power. Nia's love for life and the overall idea that there is something good that is worth believing in was Simon's reason to fight. But he never needed inspiration.

And nothing about Nia was said before in the show, she was in constant contrast with Kamina. While Kamina valued his glorious ideals above individual human life, especially his own, Nia was the exact opposite. She didn't understand concepts and ideals, but she understood that if you're in danger, you should run and save yourself. This was phrased in such a way as to contrast it with Kamina's "never run from battle, rarr!" Where Kamina tended to dismiss individual people and their issues in favor of painting great strokes of glory and heroism, Nia simply got to know people and decided she liked them. Essentially, Nia showed a love for life that was never shown before in the show. Kamina only battled, his life was in the conflict itself. From Nia, Simon learned that life was something more than just mindlessly moving forward. This is what Nia did.

"name one person who showed any sort of dislike for her for more than a minute (and the minute part is only when they find out she's the spiral king's daughter... she's the daughter of our arch-enemy and we're mad at her FOR ONE MINUTE)."

Adiane and Guame? Not to mention Yoko. Besides, name one person who disliked Kamina or Yoko. Yeah, thought so, too.

"If it's less about the character's actions and more just about everybody's fascination with the character, it definitely belongs here."

Nia's charisma justifies this. Read what I wrote above. The way in which she interacts with everyone else is throughly thought-out and really represents what was missing in the Brigade. This is what warrants her big role in the show.

1313Jr.1313: "Wait... when did Nia ever motivated people to fight? In episode 10, Nia earned their trust by standing against Adiane despite risking her life to do so. That was it. No words or motivation involved. And Simon? She didn't inspired Simon." shortly after, when they were all imprisoned and they found out that they couldn't get out. she says crap that's already been said and suddenly everybody and their mothers believe in simon. there's no "but look at it in context LOL" or any of that there because the fact still remains that she said nothing new yet it INSPIRED EVERYBODY.

"And nothing about Nia was said before in the show, she was in constant contrast with Kamina. While Kamina valued his glorious ideals above individual human life, especially his own, Nia was the exact opposite. She didn't understand concepts and ideals, but she understood that if you're in danger, you should run and save yourself... Essentially, Nia showed a love for life that was never shown before in the show. Kamina only battled, his life was in the conflict itself. From Nia, Simon learned that life was something more than just mindlessly moving forward. This is what Nia did." the first half really isn't relevant to your point so until the "..." we'll just ignore that. yes, she showed a love for life, but it was ALREADY SHOWN by yoko, our good friend the scrappy, and kittan's 3 sisters (plus a few others, but they really hold no relevance to the plot).

"Adiane and Guame? Not to mention Yoko. Besides, name one person who disliked Kamina or Yoko. Yeah, thought so, too." yoko disliked nia ONLY for the beach episode (until nia goes evil on us) and you said yourself that it doesn't count. other than the moment of frustration or minute of dislike, NOBODY disliked nia; friend, foe, moonman, NOBODY. as for kamina and yoko, viral and lord genome didn't like them (yet for some reason, viral didn't say crap that was anti-sue/nia) and unlike our sue, kittan didn't like kamina at first. then again, we aren't talking about yoko and kamina here so it doesn't make any difference even if they were sues because we're talking about nia.

"Nia's charisma justifies this. Read what I wrote above. The way in which she interacts with everyone else is throughly thought-out and really represents what was missing in the Brigade." then i guess she's a really well thought out sue, because you completely failed to tell me how she WASN'T a sue despite a point for point sue breakdown. also, the only thing that i saw that was missing from the brigade WAS A PURITY SUE.

"This is what warrants her big role in the show." ... in fact, sues usually do have a big role in the show...

Read: You provide no examples from the show to back-up on your arguments. Please stop trying to prove a point through straw-man arguments.

"shortly after, when they were all imprisoned and they found out that they couldn't get out. she says crap that's already been said and suddenly everybody and their mothers believe in simon. there's no "but look at it in context LOL" or any of that there because the fact still remains that she said nothing new yet it INSPIRED EVERYBODY."

When they were imprisioned, they were inspired by Simon and not by Nia, actually. It's impossible for their belief in Simon to come from Nia's words since Nia wasn't imprisoned with them. Their belief in Simon came from seeing Simon in action, from him steadily digging his way out.

"we'll just ignore that. yes, she showed a love for life, but it was ALREADY SHOWN by yoko, our good friend the scrappy, and kittan's 3 sisters (plus a few others, but they really hold no relevance to the plot)."

Not at all, you misunderstood my point. It's not a love for life based on "you have to keep living to make a change", it's a love for life based on loving life itself. Nia was the character from which Simon learned that living is a wonderful experience. Rossiu was never delighted about being under the rain, he was worrisome but not particularly happy to be alive. Yoko was especially concerned with survival and had a rather pragmatical view of the world. Kittan's sisters had barely any interaction with Simon. Nia had a curiosity and sense of wonder that Simon had never seen before. This is Nia's new-to-the-show charisma and personality.

"yoko disliked nia ONLY for the beach episode (until nia goes evil on us) and you said yourself that it doesn't count. other than the moment of frustration or minute of dislike, NOBODY disliked nia; friend, foe, moonman, NOBODY. as for kamina and yoko, viral and lord genome didn't like them (yet for some reason, viral didn't say crap that was anti-sue/nia) and unlike our sue, kittan didn't like kamina at first."

Viral had no interaction with Yoko. How can you say Viral disliked Yoko when they never interacted? Anti-Spiral and Genome were pretty intent in killing Nia, I don't see how can you not call that a dislike. Gurren-Lagann isn't a show about people disliking people and I think this is rather clear by the White and Grey morality showcased by the conflict itself.

"then again, we aren't talking about yoko and kamina here so it doesn't make any difference even if they were sues because we're talking about nia."

A Sue is only a Sue in relation to the other characters in the show. That is the definition we use here in TV Tropes.

"then i guess she's a really well thought out sue, because you completely failed to tell me how she WASN'T a sue despite a point for point sue breakdown. also, the only thing that i saw that was missing from the brigade WAS A PURITY SUE."

What? I exemplified how she never go unwarranted attention and she earned Simon's love. I exemplified how she wasn't perfect. I exemplified how in relation to the rest of the cast she wasn't particularly special. She was a Naïve Everygirl, White Prince and Mysterious Waif; but she wasn't a Purity Sue.

1313Jr.1313: first, Tropes Are Not Bad... so don't take offense to the fact that nia is a sue.

second, even if her words just got them to see simon going at it as he always did, they were STILL already said which still proves my point. you haven't actually disproved any of my points, just rephrased them and (yourself) used the same strawman you accused me of using (by the way, how was i using a strawman argument? i took nothing out of context and didn't misquote anyone and attack that). getting into syntax and attacking minute, irrelevant details is just petty. your "I exemplified blah blah blah" arguments are just plain false because you have done nothing but take what i say out of context and pick apart the syntax of what you decided my misquoted words meant. you have said nothing new in the past 2 responses (aside from butchering logic) which makes it painfully obvious that you have nothing new to say. the "i think i'm right therefore i'm right despite evidence otherwise" argument is just getting bad... never mind, it was always bad. if you want proof of how bad your argument is, try this on for size.

I exemplified how she did get unwarranted attention and she didn't earned Simon's love. I exemplified how she was perfect with only lovable flaws. I exemplified how in relation to the rest of the cast she was particularly special. She was a Purity Sue.

there you go buddy, faulted by your own logic. if you want to continue to take my arguments out of context or continue to misquote me and attack those arguments, feel free. just know that i'm done with putting up with your strawman arguments and (i'm not sure if it's deliberate) misquoting, so unless you respond without that i will not be responding with too much more than a try again. i'll be changing nia back to a purity sue and if you're still too stubborn to accept that then please do not hesitate to just add something underneath saying that her sueness MIGHT be justified or whatever you choose.

Read:

"by the way, how was i using a strawman argument? i took nothing out of context and didn't misquote anyone and attack that"

You were using strawman arguments because you were misquoting the show itself. You said Nia inspired other characters through her words when ultimately she didn't. Nia gave Simon a purpose and got the gang to stop worrying so much not through words but through attitude. While they were panicking; Nia was serene and confident. You also completely ignored the idea of Nia bringing something new to the table through her love of life rather than love of conflict and wrongly argued that Rossiu's "survival instinct" was the same as Nia's down-to-earth nature. Nia had no survival instinct whatsoever, but she still loved life itself on the virtue on it being life. She told Simon to run away not because she wanted him to live, but because he was afraid and didn't want to die. Then you say that other characters don't matter in relationship to a discussion about Sue-dom yet completely ignore the fact that Sue-dom has its foundation not on the traits inherent to the character but on the relation between the character and the other characters. This kind of oversimplification to make a point is a strawman.

"I exemplified how she did get unwarranted attention"

Nia got attention because she was completely different to everything the cast had seen before. A Purity Sue has no justification to the interest she or him garners from the other characters, the attention on Nia was not unwarranted because there was no other female like her in the underworld. She was well-mannered and so-spoiled-she-doesn't-know she spoiled, the girls they were used to treat were rough, unpolite and burdened by hardships.

"I exemplified how she was perfect with only lovable flaws."

I don't see how someone useless is perfect. Besides, most flaws are made to be lovable. Viral's ineffectual villainy was only there to make him moe, wasn't it? Kamina's recklessness turned him into an idol, didn't it? This kind of argument is tired and without relevance.

"I exemplified how in relation to the rest of the cast she was particularly special."

Simon and Kamina were also particularly special in relation to the rest of the cast. That's what makes them main characters.

"She was a Purity Sue."

How so?

Also, you contradict yourself:

"I exemplified how she did get unwarranted attention" "I exemplified how in relation to the rest of the cast she was particularly special."

How is the attention unwarranted if she is indeed special?

1313Jr.1313: if those are all of the flaws you got out of my 3 line imitation of your logic then it's actually BETTER than your argument using the same logic... and mine was meant to be sarcastic. we've already been over the fact that she added nothing new (except for spoiled, which was only halfway added). "Simon and Kamina were also particularly special"... again, i already said that and it makes no difference as this isn't a chat about simon and kamina (you know, our main characters). "I don't see how someone useless is perfect." i'm pretty sure that this is the clincher. you acknowledge that she is useless and yet you also acknowledge that the attention she gets is warranted... that makes no sense unless she gets no attention which is the opposite of what happens. you are repeating the same things that have already been said and ignoring the points that completely squash them. also note that you have yet to contradict a single call of fallacy.

— try again.

Read: You see, the problem with your argument is that is has no support in the show itself. The statement over which your entire proposition stands is that Nia adds nothing new to the show, which is false.

-She is completely different from the rest of the cast. Even her color scheme of light pastels clashes starkly with the rough combination of reds, blacks and intense blues the entire world was designed with. Humans in Gurren Lagann are of brutish customs: they eat violently, they interact with each other violently and they act violently. Nia was extremely polite, soft-spoken and always trying to keep her temper under control. This "princess-like" aura of high-class nobility was something lost to humanity and the reason she was so notorious to the Brigade when she first arrives.

-Her personality that combines idealization with down-to-earth happiness is something so new that it even shapes the show and the direction it takes for future episodes. Rossiu and Yoko were burdened by the responsibility of survival; Kamina and Kittan were in love with conflict itself; Nia enjoyed life on virtue of it being life and nothing else. She is able to find happiness in feeling the mud under her feet or the rain falling on her head; she is the character that first and foremost tries to prevent struggles and considers understanding a most important thing to achieve. Thanks to Nia giving him a direction, Simon was freed from an eternal cycle of violence in which humanity breaks-through only with the intention of breaking-through again.

-Related to the previous, her platonic view of the world, something extremely idiosyncratic to the way she is written. Nia has her head in the clouds, but in ways different from the usual. And it's not just about her sheltered upbringing. The way in which she creates her screwy notions about reality is part of this level of depth: she easily captures the meaning behind abstract ideas but she finds it hard, and doesn't even realize she finds it hard, to bring these ideas into something more practical and specific. Exemplified by her reaction to the Kamina statues she loved while everyone else thought they were disturbing, even Simon himself.

Now, if you should continue arguing: prove these three arguments wrong by using examples from the TV show. Address them directly, please, because while they exist Nia will never be a Purity Sue.

1313Jr.1313: here's a nice little quote from you: "I exemplified how in relation to the rest of the cast she wasn't particularly special." we'll assume that whatever argument you had there (building up how she wasn't special) was valid for the sake of right now. you literally just spent THREE FULL (beautifully written i might add) PARAGRAPHS contradicting that point. you want me to hit each point? ok then; i will.

point 1, "She is completely different from the rest of the cast." and all the stuff that followed. if a sue was not different than the rest of the cast then they'd be on planet sue. if one person is different than the rest they suddenly can't be a sue??? come on now. that's one point gone, meaning that now "they" don't exist and therefore, by your logic, nia is now a purity sue.

point 2, "Her personality that combines idealization with down-to-earth happiness is something so new that it even shapes the show and the direction it takes for future episodes." and the rest. she basically (actually literally) fell from the sky and as you say, SHAPED THE ENTIRE SHOW!!! how in god's name is that not sue-like?

point 3, "stuff that has nothing to do with her being or not being a sue." enough said.

so, yeah... your points do technically still exist, but they have been disproven (at least proven false) so that's enough to crush the anti-sue claim. just because you are in love with nia (or a better writer than i thought, because some sort of emotion would have to go into something that beautifully written or the writer would have to be incredible) doesn't make her not a sue. also, just because she's a sue doesn't mean she can't be a good character... it just means that she is a sue.

Read:

Point 1: Actually, the main trait of a Sue is that she is not special enough to warrant the attention she is getting. You just confirmed how Nia was special and different enough to warrant a big role through her personality alone, which proves your previous statement about how "Nia didn't bring anything new to the show" wrong. That's what you wrote a few paragraphs above, that since Nia was no different from the rest of the cast she did nothing to warrant the attention and such a trait is what makes her a Sue. How can this be when you just confirmed that Nia is, in her personality, different enough to warrant protagonism?

Point 2: Because the only trait of a Sue is "unwarranted attention". Nia shaped the show justifiedly. If she had done so without traits of her own, it would be fair to call her a Sue; but she is too idyosincratic to be called such.

Point 3: This is the justification of point number 2. The reason she was able to believably give direction to the story.

1313Jr.1313: you do realize that all that i did was point out you contradicted yourself, right? i said "we'll assume that whatever argument you had there (building up how she wasn't special) was valid for the sake of right now." i DID NOT say "she is now special" and all that nonsense. i pointed out how your logic contradicted itself, nothing more (sans compliments). also, i would never say "Nia didn't brought anything new to the show" as 1) i wouldn't capitalize her name and 2) the grammar is messed up. when you quote me, make sure you use copy and paste unless you make it clear you're summing it up. now, all of your arguments are based on the fact that your contradiction holds true and the fact that (by default) it can't on its own is enough to crush all 3 of your points. i hope you have more evidence that isn't one of those three points as you just made them invalid.

(as for the character page, just leave Purity Sue up there with errata so everyone can be happy. feel free to change the errata to suit you but i feel it would be fair to at least make it clear that half of the people would find her to be a sue instead of "whoever edits more wins.")

Read: You see. The main trait of a Purity Sue that a character is the object of unwarranted attention.

You stated the following: "she said nothing new yet it INSPIRED EVERYBODY."

Let's ignore the fact that Nia only once "inspired" characters other than Simon and it was by virtue of her actions rather than of her words. You clearly stated that nothing about Nia was new and that as such all the attention she got had no justification whatsoever. However, now you're claiming Nia to be "special". I never said Nia was special. I said Nia was different. Different enough to warrant the attention she is given. A Purity Sue is a Purity Sue, by our definition, is lack of justification. I quote:

"The important underlying element here, however, is that the Purity Sue doesn't really do anything to truly justify the treatment she receives. Decidedly subjective traits and actions have other characters latch onto her. It's the fact that the other characters are just filling the blanks and elevating her to her superior position of specialness that makes her one of these."

Essentially, a Purity Sue would be a blank character that only exists in her relation to the other characters. This isn't the case for Nia. And I don't agree with leaving "Purity Sue" in the main article as that couldn't be a worse fit for the character.

1313Jr.1313: "And I don't agree with leaving "Purity Sue" in the main article as that couldn't be a worse fit for the character." hence my "your milage may vary" errata. i figured that until this matter is resolved we could simply have a middle ground. i want her completely there WITH NO ERRATA and you don't want her there at all so unless a lesser sue category comes up this is the best middle ground we have. also, badass normal and big damn hero would both be worse fits for nia (in fact, anything she isn't would be a worse fit).

"You clearly stated that nothing about Nia was new and that as such all the attention she got had no justification whatsoever. However, now you're claiming Nia to be "special". I never said Nia was special. I said Nia was different." see, you are misquoting me again. i said that YOU said that nia was special and now you're saying that you never said that. regardless, take the sue test for nia and you will see that she is clearly a sue. if you don't believe that she is a purity sue, then please let me know which sue she is. i am, however, assuming that no amount of evidence will convince you that she isn't a sue for no adequately explored reason and i am damn sure not going to ignore facts and agree that she isn't a sue (in other words you truly believe she isn't a sue and no matter what won't change your mind, and about the same for me on the other end) which is why i proposed the middle ground. also note that you haven't yet disputed you having feelings for her and seeing puritysue as an insult

Read: You're ignoring the true argument presented by our quote. By OUR defintion, Purity Sue is a character with no justification in its interactions with the rest of cast and world itself. It's a blank character that is presented through pure description and no actions, a character without a core personality. Nia clearly doesn't fit OUR definition of Purity Sue and that's all that matters to this discussion. The Mary Sue Litmus test is not only badly constructed, it's also irrelevant to this discussion because we're discussing tropes as presented by our Wiki and not by whatever another page on the internet has to say. If Nia doesn't fit OUR Purity Sue definition then there is no reason to have it in OUR article. That's all there is to it.

As for your question, there is not a single Sue Trope in this page that fits Nia; that's why she has none.

1313Jr.1313: 1, you still haven't disputed the fact that you see puritysue as an insult and are sticking up for nia for reasons other than logic.t 2 (and more importantly), nia stalled an attack that happened anyway (1 - 1 = 0 actions), got people to believe in simon who saved the day (he would have had their rust anyway since he would have saved the day anyway [1 - 1 = 0 actions]), got them to dislike the big bad and go after him (which they were doing anyway [0]), and while later on she became a plot point, had a role that could have been EASILY filled by the other big bad himself. we sure get a face full of her description, but she (until the first big bad was defeated) was shown to us "through pure description and no actions, a character without a core personality" (when her personality/background came up, it was just given a hand wave/penny description). 3, who said anything about "The Mary Sue Litmus test"??? i was talking about running her up against our sue page point by point. there is no denying that she is a sue without resorting to misquotes and bad logic. this may as well be an exception to the exception rule because there is no buts here. 4, "there is not a single Sue Trope in this page that fits Nia". i know, but just because she fits MORE THAN ONE sue trope doesn't mean that suddenly she doesn't fit any. again, that's terrible logic. it's almost as though something were in the way. i will POINT BY POINT show you why she is a purity sue (you can throw in the other sues you are thinking about when you feel like it, although a list that long must take a while so i'll be patient).

1, "overtly positive." like no tomorrow and taken from our very own purity sue page. 2, "never have any flaws that actually impact them in a way that truly matters, usually going for endearing traits such as "clumsiness" or naiveté, instead getting overloaded with overwhelmingly positive but largely passive traits (i.e. beauty, innocence, etc.)." bad cook (hero loves food anyway) and ONLY endearing flaws. as for the traits... SUE 3, "be soft spoken, have a pleasant voice, and be mild-mannered. Often, the traits verge towards the ethereal, with auras, non-human lineage, and other such things." very soft spoken, gentle pleasant voice, mild mannered, non-human lineage, etc... SUE 4, "passive motivator of other people" jail scene (and most other scenes) FTP... SUE 5, "she gets such a disproportionately positive response that it breaks the Willing Suspension Of Disbelief." the breaking of the willing suspension of disbelief varies from person to person, but as it broke mine (even if not yours) it's still enough to be a point AND IF NOT then should simply be thrown out as neither pro nor con nia-sue. 5.5, "They don't really become a Relationship Sue unless it becomes obvious that character exists, first and foremost, to be in a relationship with another character." i know i'm arguing for purity sue here, but the fact that "She most often overlaps with Relationship Sue" puts her in a situation where it would be VERY easy to argue that she is a relationship sue. 6, "loved by everybody for being (as the plot tries to suggest) "perfect" (or close enough) in every way that matters." BAM, she is loved by everybody because she is perfect (or close enough) and any possible argument that you may have against that is squashed by the last 5 words of that quote. 7, "If it's less about the character's actions and more just about everybody's fascination with the character, it belongs here." we've established that she didn't do jack diddely so it couldn't possibly be about her actions and yet everybody IS fascinated with her, therefore it MUST belong here. there is nowhere else for it to be, so checkmate.

I tried to be nice and offer you a middle ground, but you just had to say no, didn't you. you had the option to be fair but you wanted everything and look what happened... it got proven beyond any fathom of a doubt that nia is a purity sue. sorry, but your crush is a sue. just remember that Tropes Are Not Bad and try to be happy.

Read:

"2 (and more importantly), nia stalled an attack that happened anyway (1 - 1 = 0 actions) got people to believe in simon who saved the day (he would have had their rust anyway since he would have saved the day anyway [1 - 1 = 0 actions]), got them to dislike the big bad and go after him (which they were doing anyway [0]), and while later on she became a plot point, had a role that could have been EASILY filled by the other big bad himself. we sure get a face full of her description, but she (until the first big bad was defeated) was shown to us "through pure description and no actions, a character without a core personality" (when her personality/background came up, it was just given a hand wave/penny description)."

What are you trying to prove in here? Nia's actions were relevant to the plot because they were relevant to Simon transformation into a hero. I have already explained this. And Nia's personality was never "described", it was delivered through her actions. Her sense of wonder when first meeting Simon and feeling happy under a normally uncomfortable rain. This wasn't a description, this was pure characterization. What about her stubbornness? We're never told Nia is stubborn or that she believes in Simon for no reason at all; we're shown Nia's belief in Simon is illogical, without basis in reality and totally naive. This was never addressed through dialog in the show, this was SHOWN through her actions when facing against Guame, Genome or the Anti-Spiral. Nia's confused nature was delivered through actual misunderstanding and her weird mannerisms. We're never told "Nia is weird", we're shown Nia's weirdness.

"1, "overtly positive." like no tomorrow and taken from our very own purity sue page."

Aren't Pollyanna's also "overtly positive"? Why is Nia a Purity Sue and not a Pollyana?

"2, "never have any flaws that actually impact them in a way that truly matters, usually going for endearing traits such as "clumsiness" or naiveté, instead getting overloaded with overwhelmingly positive but largely passive traits (i.e. beauty, innocence, etc.)." bad cook (hero loves food anyway) and ONLY endearing flaws. as for the traits... SUE"

What flaw of Yoko's impacts her in a way that truly matters? What flaw of Viral's impacts him in a way that truly matters? Characters only have flaws to make them more endearing unless they're villains... and usually flaws in villains are what make them sympathetic. Besides, Nia is essentially useless. Not only she can't cook, she can't pilot a mech either. She can't research new technology like Leeron or Leyte. She isn't a skilled warrior like Yoko. Since when is having a dis-attachment from reality so deep you're not functional at all considered being perfection?

"3, "be soft spoken, have a pleasant voice, and be mild-mannered. Often, the traits verge towards the ethereal, with auras, non-human lineage, and other such things." very soft spoken, gentle pleasant voice, mild mannered, non-human lineage, etc... SUE"

That is a trait also found on Mysterious Waif. This is NOT a trait that makes a Purity Sue, this is only a trait that distinguishes an already confirmed Sue from other Sues like God-Mode Sue or the like.

"5, "she gets such a disproportionately positive response that it breaks the Willing Suspension Of Disbelief." the breaking of the willing suspension of disbelief varies from person to person, but as it broke mine (even if not yours) it's still enough to be a point AND IF NOT then should simply be thrown out as neither pro nor con nia-sue."

Fine, let's ignore this, then.

"5.5, "They don't really become a Relationship Sue unless it becomes obvious that character exists, first and foremost, to be in a relationship with another character." i know i'm arguing for purity sue here, but the fact that "She most often overlaps with Relationship Sue" puts her in a situation where it would be VERY easy to argue that she is a relationship sue."

Nia exists, first and foremost, for her relevance to the themes presented by the show. The way in which she creates her sense-of-self is as important to the script, if not even more, than she being Simon's lover.

"6, "loved by everybody for being (as the plot tries to suggest) "perfect" (or close enough) in every way that matters." BAM, she is loved by everybody because she is perfect (or close enough) and any possible argument that you may have against that is squashed by the last 5 words of that quote."

She isn't loved by everyone for being perfect. She is loved by everyone for being different. She is curious, useless and weird. They weren't used to someone well-mannered and elegant. The Gurren-Dan was composed of people of a nearly brutish character, Nia was something they had never seen before.

"7, "If it's less about the character's actions and more just about everybody's fascination with the character, it belongs here." we've established that she didn't do jack diddely so it couldn't possibly be about her actions and yet everybody IS fascinated with her, therefore it MUST belong here. there is nowhere else for it to be, so checkmate."

But they're fascinated by the character's personality. Nia's elegance, curiosity and love for life is the reason the rest of the cast accepted her into their team. When Nia protected them against Adiane it wasn't that her protection was effective, it was that she actually risked her life for theirs despite them being almost complete strangers to her. Her actions shaped the plot by affecting the other characters, but it was her actions and character what affected the other characters, not an unbelievable fascination. Nia made Simon stop fighting for revenge and start fighting for love because from her he learned what love was. This is her great accomplishment. And she did it by virtue of her clearly defined personality.

"I tried to be nice and offer you a middle ground, but you just had to say no, didn't you. you had the option to be fair but you wanted everything and look what happened... it got proven beyond any fathom of a doubt that nia is a purity sue. sorry, but your crush is a sue. just remember that Tropes Are Not Bad and try to be happy."

Actually, you have just proven than Nia isn't a Sue through your arguments full of holes and oversimplification.