YMMV Las Lindas Discussion

Collapse/Expand Topics
 

dvorak
Topic
06:37:55 PM Nov 20th 2014
edited by 184.151.222.99
Disregard.
SomeNewGuy
Topic
06:37:09 AM Nov 19th 2014
YMMV is not the place where you can bitch and whine about characters you don't like. Not to mention more than half of these complaints are overreactions or just plain false.
Larkmarn
07:49:05 AM Nov 19th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.6
Cleaned up somewhat. Removed examples that are Square Peg Round Trope (Notably pulling examples of Creator's Pet regarding Miles, when the same page said he has a large fanbase, making him not The Scrappy) and some basic cleanup. I don't know anything about the comic to make any judgments about the veracity of statements.
SomeNewGuy
11:48:37 AM Nov 19th 2014
Okay, here are my issues with the Designated Hero and Designated Villain pothole:

Mora as a "blackmailer": I am willing to admit that she did blackmail Miles at first, but this literally happened at the very beginning of the comic and since then she's cleaned up her act considerably (he actually pays him, for one). You are literally harping Mora for something that hasn't been an issue for years.

Miles as a Jerk Ass: ...Okay, you got me there.

Minos as a "traitor"...pardon my french, but where the hell did this come from?

Taffy as an "Extreme Doormat": Untrue. She finally stood up to Miles' aggressive come ons during the Harvest Festival, and has since shown more and more signs of being assertive.

Idward as a Stalker with a Crush: At first, yeah, but he's been slowly getting over his obession, especially now that Ailana's back in the picture.

Din and Jin...again, I'll give you that.

As for Alej, no, she was not villainous for having a successful business. She was villainous for trying to use blackmail, extortion and physical threats to steal Mora's land purely to spite her (she made it clear that she didn't actually need Las Lindas for her enterprise) over a petty grudge. She was villainous for obsessing over her nonexistent rivalry with Mora to the point that she was driving her business into the ground and driving all of her friends and allies, even Tootsie, away. Yes, Mora screwed up by running away, buy Alej took her resentment way too far, and it very nearly ended up costing her everything.
Larkmarn
12:03:13 PM Nov 19th 2014
Anyway you cut it, it's poorly written. First off, don't lump two tropes in one. Secondly, it'll help ease of reading if they gave each character their own bullet point under Designated Hero.
dvorak
12:10:52 PM Nov 19th 2014
edited by 199.247.179.76
Mora treats her "employees" (only two of which-Minos and Taffy-are getting paid) like shit. She physically abuses Miles, emotionally abuses Minos, and outright attacked Rachel-whom she has as a debt-slave, by the way; she and Sarah can't leave willingly or Mora will have them put away. Minos walked out at the drop of a hat and backstabbed someone he'd sworn fealty to (granted, his Leige was an Evil Overlord but it's still betrayal-in fact; it is a special kind of betrayal known as treason). Taffy could leave at any time, but chooses not to for whatever reason, so now we have the burning carcasse of her and Miles' relationship hanging over the whole farm. Idward spent several years harrassing Mora. That doesn't just go away because he's become a somewhat better person.
dvorak
12:10:56 PM Nov 19th 2014
edited by 174.90.223.180
Duplicate post. Sorry.
Larkmarn
12:15:01 PM Nov 19th 2014
... okay, calling someone a Designated Hero because they betrayed an Evil Overlord doesn't make a lick of sense.

The rest I can't comment on because I'm... pretty sure that the description is a bit skewed and I'm unfamiliar with the material.
dvorak
02:43:37 PM Nov 19th 2014
PS

I was not compaining. I was simply getting out the surgical tools to dissect why these people are our protagonists. If I was complaining, I'd point out how this is as well-written as Sonichu but it gets a free pass because it's softcore porn, and doesn't have art that makes one want to poke their own eyes out.
SomeNewGuy
04:03:48 PM Nov 19th 2014
Well, the edits still came off as aggressive, at least imo.
dvorak
04:57:04 PM Nov 19th 2014
edited by 174.90.223.180
Of course it's agressive. These people (for lack of a better term) make my blood boil. And then you just delete my YMMV post with no better justification than "How about no?". Not cool.

We can, I hope agree to disagree on this. That is the essence of the YMMV subpage. I have no intention of letting the cast's actions slide (except Minos' treason, that was a Heel-Face Turn and I admit I was reaching). I say Designated Hero triggers the Eight Deadly Words. You say Character Development. Truce?
SomeNewGuy
06:10:10 PM Nov 19th 2014
Truce. You can put your grievances under Alternate Character Interpretation and/or Base Breaker, so long as they don't come off as too inflammatory. =)
dvorak
06:44:58 PM Nov 19th 2014
edited by 174.90.223.180
Another point I fear we're going to disagree over. Copypasted from Designated hero: " A Designated Hero is a character in a story who, despite being presented as heroic, is actually aJerk Ass at best and an arguable villain at worst." I've been banging on about the cast's wrongful behavior for two days, and Alejandra seems to be no worse than them; in fact she was victimized by Idward tearing her dress off and Ambar rigging the contest so that Mora would win.

Perhaps I could post what I think is Des.Hero and you could refute it in a sub-bullet by showing the character development?
SomeNewGuy
07:10:25 PM Nov 19th 2014
edited by 50.177.255.121
I guess it could be argued that Alej's comeuppance was excessive, but like I said before, it was mainly her who kept escalating the conflict until it very nearly destroyed her life, her career, and her sanity. Still, I'm open for your proposals.
dvorak
08:33:57 PM Nov 19th 2014
edited by 199.247.179.76
I like Larkman's idea of the bullet points. Let's start, shall we?

  • Mora: Three counts blackmail-She forces Miles, Sarah, and Rachel into working for her Or Else; Miles' "Else" being charged with Solicitation of Sex and the girls with vandalism. Three counts enslavement, Miles is forced to work for free; the girls are indentured servants. Three counts of Assault-and-Battery; she bludgeons Miles unconscious with a saucepan, pours hot tea down his crotch, and punches Alejandra in the face. One count Heresy, she accepts a prize that came from a friend defiling a sacred ritual. One count emotional abuse, she makes fun of Minos' lack of artistic ability fairly cruelly. One count of brawling, she and Rachel get into a fistfight.

To which you reply...?
SomeNewGuy
07:05:15 AM Nov 20th 2014
Well, to be fair, I am fairly certain that Mora did actually start paying all of her farmhands, Miles included. (Though Miles was initially giving half his payments to Taffy to fund her tuition, but I think that ended after their breakup) Also, I don't know if I agree with the Harvest Festival being a "sacred ritual". If I recall correctly, its just an annual contest. Next, I don't recall Mora ever actually hitting Alej. Finally, Mora and Rachel have been at odds since day one due to Rachel's resentment of how Mora had everything given to her and Rachel herself had to fight daily just to survive, and Rachel kissing Minos was simply the final spark on the powder keg, so to speak.

And honestly, I don't really have a comment on Miles being abused, because fuck Miles. =P
Madrugada
07:18:00 AM Nov 20th 2014
I'm not familiar with the work, but this raises the question for me "are these characters actually presented as "heroic" at all, or are they simply the main characters?"

Being the main characters doesn't automatically make them Heroes or Heroic. Here's what make a character The Hero: "This guy is a hero, pure and simple. He's almost always right, is a friend to all his teammates, and morally superior. He has a well-rounded skill set. He's not as strong as The Big Guy, or as smart as The Smart Guy, or as sensitive and socially adept as The Chick, but he's close. He can personally accomplish a variety of goals, but his real superpower is getting the whole diverse set of personalities to focus and pull together. He'll always know who to ask for help, and when and usually how."

On the other hand, it sounds like Mora is The Protagonist but not intended to be Heroic at all: "The Protagonist is the principal character of a story, usually The Hero, but not always. ...you can generally tell who the protagonist is because the story is about them. "
SomeNewGuy
07:39:05 AM Nov 20th 2014
Well yeah. At the start of the story, Mora is most definitely a manipulative, lazy Jerk Ass. But as the story went on, she's gradually become more and more of a better person, treating her friends better (or trying to, anyway), trying to be more courteous to Minos, and actually wanting to finally mend her relationship with Alej.
dvorak
10:54:20 AM Nov 20th 2014
Mora does indeed hit Alej. Right after she finds out the guys who were harrassing her were working for Alej, Mora punches her. As for the harvest festival, Alejandra tells Ambar not to pull any funny buisiness because the festival is a sacred event.
SomeNewGuy
11:01:32 AM Nov 20th 2014
Well, again, Alej was trying to use blackmail, threats of physical violence and other such underhanded methods in order to steal land that she didn't even need, purely out of spite.

None of the cast are angels, I will admit that, but Alej is not nearly as perfect or blameless as some of the comic's detractors (not necessarily you, though) claim she is.
dvorak
11:08:29 AM Nov 20th 2014
I'm willing to admit Mora has developed as a character. But as I said, it doesn't excuse her actions.

Can we at least agree that Dinn and Jinn get Complete Monster or Moral Event Horizon for tricking Sarah into nearly killing Digit?
SomeNewGuy
11:09:23 AM Nov 20th 2014
Complete Monster, no. As much as I still detest those two for what they did, they're still played for laughs, mostly.

Moral Event Horizon, however...go for it.
dvorak
11:21:46 AM Nov 20th 2014
Right. So. that's done. We agree on something.
dvorak
06:39:33 PM Nov 20th 2014
edited by 184.151.222.99
How about this. I Air my Greivances with Mora under Jerk Sue (happy Festivus, BTW), saying that she's committed a laundry-list of wrongful actions that triggers a good luck feedback cascade that results in her getting set for life.
Collapse/Expand Topics