Videogame Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door Discussion

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SatoshiBakura
Topic
12:33:48 PM Feb 14th 2015
edited by SatoshiBakura
I know you may argue against Grodus and Beldam being a Big Bad Ensemble, but here my argument. Even though Beldam was responsible for leading people down to the Shadow Queen, she never says that she manipulated Grodus himself. Even then, it's Grodus who does everything and the one that the protagonists are trying to stop, and Beldam doesn't seem to be too involved with the X-Nauts. Though Beldam is apparently working under Grodus, she is actually taking advantage of him to resurrect the Shadow Queen as well. Beldam is more like a separate, higher Big Bad than Grodus rather than the only Big Bad.
SatoshiBakura
05:47:02 PM Feb 14th 2015
edited by SatoshiBakura
Bumping this for a response. I'm planning to restore them as a Big Bad Ensemble, but I would like someone to provide a counter-argument first.

Also, while Grodus may think that Beldam is his Dragon, she is only pretending to work for him. She has the same goal as Grodus, but is masterminding her own ways of unsealing the queen rather then just taking Grodus' orders. Beldam is ultimately running her own agenda, but Grodus doesn't realize it. And like I said before, Grodus is not merely an Unwitting Pawn, but a villain running an agenda that crosses over with another's. Both of them are the reason why the plot happened.
MyTimingIsOff
01:14:23 AM Feb 15th 2015
I see where you are going with this, I just don't think it qualifies for the Big Bad Ensemble trope.

From Big Bad Ensemble's description: "Remember this must be simultaneous - if a new Big Bad arises only after another is defeated, then this does not count."

That's the problem here. Beldam is not outed as a Big Bad until Grodus is already defeated, and before that reveal, you're led to believe that Grodus is the sole Big Bad and that Beldam is just one of his minions.

So yes, in a way there are two Big Bads, they just don't qualify for Big Bad Ensemble.
SatoshiBakura
04:12:31 AM Feb 15th 2015
Yes, Beldam is outed as a Big Bad after Grodus was defeated. But she didn't arise to become a Big Bad after Grodus' defeat, but was merely revealed that she manipulated the game opposite of Grodus. They serve as Big Bad at the same time, yet Beldam isn't outed until the end. So the hidden Big Bad Ensemble is for the whole game, not just at the end when Beldam reveals herself.
MagBas
04:37:45 AM Feb 15th 2015
Following the Mario wiki, Beldam informed Grodus of the treasure. And the entire reason to Grodus be a problem in the game is because of his treasure hunt. In other words, she caused his actions.
SatoshiBakura
05:42:27 AM Feb 15th 2015
^ That's not really stated in game though...just that Beldam spread the rumors of a treasure (I re-watched the cutscene). Grodus knew about the Shadow Queen. Even having Beldam inform Grodus of the Shadow Queen, she's only indirectly responsible for him antagonizing the protagonists throughout the game. As far as Beldam seems to be concerned, Grodus may have been any other person. But he is the one antagonizing Mario and friends via the X-Nauts, which Beldam doesn't seem to have much to do with (I know she's pretending to work for Grodus, but you never see her with an army of X-Nauts). But again, watching the cutscene, she never said that she manipulated Grodus, but that she spread the rumors of a treasure and led the protagonists to the Shadow Queen.

I would say they are similar to the Director and Sigma from Red vs. Blue. The Director works to reach his goals, but loses control of the situation. Sigma manipulates others into helping him, and gains control of the situation.
MyTimingIsOff
07:47:53 PM Feb 15th 2015
You're focusing too much on the "Beldam never said she manipulated Grodus" bit. Just because she did not spell it out word for word, it does not mean she didn't manipulate him. If she wasn't manipulating him, she wouldn't have feigned loyalty to him. Sure, that Unwitting Pawn could've been anyone, but that doesn't change the fact that Grodus is the one who took the bait.
SonicLover
Topic
04:16:42 PM Mar 14th 2013
Would anyone have any objections to giving Luigi's adventures their own section on the page? It's practically an entirely separate story.
MithrandirOlorin
Topic
03:17:38 PM Jan 25th 2013
I almost feel like there should be a section dedicated to the Glitzpit's usage of Professional Wrestling tropes. It's interesting that everyone in the Minor League seems to be Face but the Goombas, and all of he Major League seem to be Heels but Hamma.

Unfortunately none of the teams quite fit a Power Stable line up. I wonder if any Fan Work has played on the potential there.
MithrandirOlorin
08:05:51 PM May 29th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
I've put some thought into it, and I could easily form a Koopa Troop Power Stable

  • The Centerpiece: Bowser (Also the Muscle)
  • The Heir Apparent: Bowser Jr
  • The Manager: Kammy Koopa and Kamek (A blue robed Magikoopa)
  • The Enforcer: The Koopinator (The Dark Koopatrol in the Major Leagues)
  • The Point Man: Shellshock (A Shady Koopa from the Major Leagues)
  • The Hanger On: The other Shady Koopas on Shellshock's team, The Shellshockers

It's interesting how all of the Major League fighters but Hamma have Heel personalities, but all of the Minor League fighters have face personalities except the team that gets demoted down there when The Great Gonzalez makes the Major Leagues.
lu127
Topic
07:03:45 AM Oct 12th 2012

Badass Spaniard has been renamed to Dashing Hispanic. The trope requires some necessary characteristics, like being a rogue Anti-Hero of wit and charm, kind of like Zorro. There is not enough context to tell if it fits here.
shadowwolf75
04:48:53 PM Oct 13th 2012
Let's see if I can remember all the traits he hits: has the name, has the accent/speaking pattern, he's a pirate, good with his swords, swore revenge on Flavio's family line, has a bit of a sense of honor and decided to work with the party only after you kick his butt and return the skull that makes his ghost ship run. He probably qualifies more as an anti-villain, though.
thiefoftime
Topic
09:22:29 AM Sep 24th 2011
Do we really need all the "p"s removed in entries involving Doopliss? I know it's for a joke, but it makes it rather annoying when reading. Will anybody object to me adding the ps back?
Jarkes
11:54:36 AM Sep 24th 2011
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, it's pretty ridiculous.
thiefoftime
05:05:28 PM Sep 24th 2011
There, hopefully I restored all the "p"s.
FalconPain
05:22:28 PM Sep 24th 2011
Besides, the logic doesn't work on two levels. First, you can still use "p"s in conversation during the events. Second, if you know what his name is, then you already have the "p" back.
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