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5rock4
topic
12:47:19 AM Jan 1st 2014
I don't want to learn the syntax of editing, but I can add a part to the "Fake Difficulty" trope. In the guitar parts in "Green Day: Rock Band", songs, such as "She", are too easy to begin with so they add 2-3 rapid notes before returning to the note that they actually play.
Prfnoff
topic
06:45:44 PM Oct 20th 2012
The trope Boss Dissonance is being split up into Easy Levels, Hard Bosses and Hard Levels, Easy Bosses; the Rock Band example just pointed to Anticlimax Boss on the YMMV page, which is not the way to write an example of either. I couldn't make head or tail of what trope, if any, the sub-bullets that followed were supposed to represent:

  • Rock Band Network 1 songs got the short end of the stick with the bulk of their songs undertiered in Rock Band 3. The problem is that the community is only trusted to set the difficulty to one of seven Rock Band 2 tiers (giving the chart the lowest difficulty rank that puts in that tier - which also causes issues when the "easiest Impossible RBN song" makes Satch Boogie seem easy.). Rock Band 3 raised the instrument cutoffs at the higher tiers, so even the highest rank that can be allotted to RBN songs doesn't qualify as Impossible. The strum-limit-breaking Baptized By Fire? "easier than Walk Of Life"
    • RBN 2 tracks will use the updated RB3 tier cutoffs. The reason for this is that the values that are set for tiering, and for sorting within those tiers, are actually ranging between around 100 and around 700. The cutoffs for each game are set to put an equal number of songs in each tier, and it just so happens that the difficulty numbers that were set to put them at the bottom of each tier in RB2 put them in the previous tier in RB3.
212.219.49.2
topic
03:43:38 AM Jan 17th 2011
I'm not that certain that the Wesley section is actually accurate, surely they need to be things that nobody wants, which is blatantly untrue when it comes to alternative music. Also, Pearl Jam don't have a good selection? They have 2 of their greatest albums, whats not to like?
LoopyChew
12:14:27 AM Jan 18th 2011
I'd think Wesleys are a form of YMMV anyway. While I don't like Backspacer, I love Ten and its bonus pack, and each pack/album took up a week's worth of DLC at most (the Ten bonus pack, for example, was publically released alongside Warped Tour 2009 and Maroon 5 01; the mini-Nirvana pack with SLTS was released alongside Night Ranger 01).
Alucard
01:32:39 AM Jan 19th 2011
How can something be called subjective when the numbers objectively state that a certain set of artists in a certain genre have near-unnatural presence on the game? (though by this point Jimi Hendrix has them beat, but that's beside the point). Is it even arguable that a band who receives an album, three packs and three spots on-disc isn't over-represented? The Wesley receives the subjective label because screen-time and plot importance are harder to meaningfully articulate than hard numbers. Dave Grohl's status as a Rock Band Wesley is so heavily acknowledged that it's reached Ascended Meme status.

And I think an average PJ fan would prefer Betterman, Do The Evolution or Daughter over non-singles and deeper cuts. From a marketing standpoint, albums are always a poor representation of an artist's body of work, short of the entire discography. More people on average want greatest hits packs, not albums. I shouldn't even have to say that.
LoopyChew
07:18:03 AM Jan 19th 2011
So we move it from The Wesley somewhere else. The fact that Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam (and now Jimi Hendrix, I guess) have three billion tracks are not disputed; it's the fact that they're being branded as The Wesley that is.

First of all, Dave Grohl bands (Nirvana and Foo Fighters) have only had two weeks in which they were the only DLC released (TCatS and most of Nevermind, aka Nirvana 01; it would be three if it weren't for "Fake Friends" being released alongside the Bleach trifecta and Foo 03), so you can't argue that—on a weekly basis, if not on a quantity basis—they take up too much of the RB output). Likewise with Pearl Jam (both albums) and Hendrix (both albums). Altogether six, arguably seven, weeks have been dedicated exclusively to those three groups out of three years and change, of which one of those "groups" is actually two groups with one band member in common.

And if you're doing this by the sheer number of tracks released versus how often they hogged the spotlight over other bands, then Green Day has more tracks than any of these artists, by virtue of having their game export to the main platform, and yet they're not listed as a Wesley.

Not to mention, they're reasonably popular, whereas The Wesley isn't—conceptually, The Wesley is "the fans hate him, the authors like him." Sure, a lot of those songs aren't all-out favorites—as stated, I don't care for Backspacer, and I do believe a best-of consisting of hits from Versus and Vitalogy would be PJ's next best move—but all you have to do to get away from them is not download them and wait for next week (or, for those weeks in which they're not the only artists released, check out what else is available that week).

Dave Grohl's memetic status as being The Rock Band Artist is because he's done so much stuff with so many artists, not because Rock Band is all Foo Fighters and Nirvana (which doesn't even have one album out as of yet). Counting off the bands he's worked with to some degree that happen to be in Rock Band, you have—in addition to the two aforementioned projects—The D, Garbage, NIN, Queens of the Stone Age, and Them Crooked Vultures. That's seven bands.

As I said, I'm not arguing that Foo/Nirvana and PJ don't have a lot of tracks in the game. I'm arguing that they're not Wesleys.
Alucard
12:30:45 PM Jan 19th 2011
I feel like this has a chance to go in circles.

In the world of Rock Band DLC, 6 weeks is a long time; most can barely receive one. Besides, what does the time an artist takes up have to do with this? Weekly downloads is a set amount, it plays no part in this (because as you said, people can just wait for next week). Quantity is the sensitive subject here: overall 2000 songs is amazing for a game but terribly small for a music platform. Most sensible fans want to see new artists appear. Indeed, to the casual Rock Band player 12 or even 6 songs should be the limit an artist can appear. Naturally when they instead see a stream of repeated artists, knowing the limit of roughly 3-14 songs per week, they can get a bit bothered. Green Day hardly counts for this sort of thing; a standalone product takes up no space in the store to release cycle, it takes up space at retail (which probably explains why you don't see many players online with AC/DC songs).

It's not about musical tastes; something you don't care for becomes the devil incarnate if it starts taking up space where you'd rather find the debut of an unseen artist (especially given the absence of major bands like The Eagles and Coldplay). And don't try to say that PJ is beloved by the vast majority; they've sold 60 million, which in terms of major groups isn't that big (Green Day has them beat with 65 mil). I think I can say with confidence that the vast majority hates seeing so much of them same artist (which as the trope entry brings up, some alternative fans are fine with but their numbers simply don't compare), because the sense of entitlement inherent in that is more pervasive than you'd think (just go to the RB forums).

If you didn't notice, I'm playing devil's advocate here; this is a phenomenon that exists within the Rock Band community. The marketing bias is there and the fans have shown their hostility towards it.
LoopyChew
03:40:23 PM Jan 19th 2011
While I understand your point (if you take part of the official Rock Band forums, you'll see that I'm a reasonably active member, particularly in the main forum, so believe me I know all about the entitled whining), I'd still argue that for all the people that vocally moan about "another Foo Fighters week," there are just as many or more people who are straight out not going to download, let's say, Hautewerk.

Really, sometimes the only reason I think people are annoyed at Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam is that they don't have the air of "classic rock" around them the way The Who or Jimi Hendrix (groups or artists who have generations of followers; something neither of the 90's grunge scene and their descendants have made it to) do, and they're not Muse.

I honestly still don't believe that artists can be listed as The Wesley. Author Appeal, maybe. Spotlight-Stealing Squad, also a possibility. The Wesley, I don't think so.
Alucard
03:27:54 AM Jan 20th 2011
If you find it that offensive then it can be changed. I don't care what the actual trope is, I just want the idea preserved. And to be honest, I don't think that any of your suggestions serve as a better substitute. They would all be a step down in terms of aptness.
LoopyChew
06:45:55 AM Jan 20th 2011
Used Spotlight-Stealing Squad, and I figured I'd add the Classic Rock glut from the RB 3 launch period to date as an additional example (since, upon re-reading, The Wesley entry was actually about alternative music in general, although it highlighted Pearl Jam and Foo Fighters as particularly egregious offenders, meaning this debate was not only circular, but besides the point).
kitsunezeta
topic
03:35:20 PM Dec 19th 2010
I was tempted to just undo half of Gamer Am I's edit (since the requirement for the achievement is for the goal of the same name - Endless Setlist III - to be completed, and that one points to a built-in non-modifiable setlist titled Endless Setlist III), but really, the part being edited applies to at least 3 incarnations of Endless Setlist (dunno about Lego Rock Band, don't have it), since they're all ordered by band difficulty.

As verification, look at any goal that requires multiple specific songs (and more of one of which is incomplete). Outside of very few specific cases (The Hall Of Fame Induction setlists, for instance), every one will say "SETLIST (X SONGS)" in the red banner. The Hall of Fame Induction setlists (which are ONLY accessible via the goals screen) will say "HALL OF FAME INDUCTION SETLIST 8 SONGS" and the Endless Setlist III's relevant setlist reads "THE ENDLESS SETLIST III 83 SONGS" (note the lack of parentheses on both of those), while a non-saved setlist uses parentheses. additionally, The Endless Setlist III is marked "Built-In" and is attributed to Harmonix. if another setlist with all 83 on-disc songs is used, even if it is identical in every way except creator and setlist type, it will not qualify for the goal (and thus, achievement)
Xaris
topic
10:03:18 AM Nov 22nd 2010
edited by Xaris
OK, seriously, people. The bass and keyboard for Antibodies are rated at the highest tier. It doesn't matter if certain songs were rated in a non-highest tier now despite being highest tier in Rock Band 1 or vice versa because in every other fucking game they are rated in a different way. If a song is rated that high, it CAN'T be undertiered. Stop adding those parts as a Boss In Mooks Clothing example. Further, it doesn't matter where you think it would be rated on Rock Band 1 because you can't play the damn song on Rock Band 1 to know for sure.
kitsunezeta
01:18:14 PM Nov 22nd 2010
"Further, it doesn't matter where you think it would be rated on Rock Band 1 because you can't play the damn song on Rock Band 1 to know for sure."

Actually, to that extent (due to knowledge of the file format that Harmonix themselves published), we can say with absolute certainty that anything that is impossible-tier in Rock Band 2 or 3 would be Impossible-Tier in Rock Band 1. Unfortunately, the inverse is NOT true (Constant Motion WAS impossible-tier on Guitar-Expert in rock band 1, it is now just short of impossible-tier in rock band 2 and 3 - even Afterlife ended up getting dropped a category when the difficulty tier cutoffs changed from Rock Band 1 to Rock Band 2)

Also, you forget another technical point about the difficulty values on the charts which is also in the published file format: they go well over 100. Each chart (Pro Drums notwithstanding due to implementation) carries with it a difficulty value in addition to an overall "band" difficulty completely separate from the chart difficulties. Sorting by difficulty sorts the songs in ascending order of the difficulty value of the chart (in multiplayer, the overall band difficulty is used instead of a chart difficulty). Antibodies's bass chart being as close to the impossible-tier cutoff as it is IS indeed underrating the difficulty.
Xaris
10:30:17 PM Nov 22nd 2010
edited by Xaris
And? Its still in the highest tier for keyboards and bass. It doesn't matter how it compares to songs in the same toer, nor does it matter how many tiers there were in Rock Band 1. I don't care what technical stuff is behind it, a song CAN'T be undertiered if it's in the highest tier. However, I think the way the entry is now works. It doesn't declare that the bass is undertiered because its not, but rather that the full band is undertiered, which I agree with.
kitsunezeta
12:14:26 PM Nov 23rd 2010
edited by kitsunezeta
Train Kept A Rollin' is impossible-tier on Guitar in Rock Band 1. Constant Motion on Guitar is rated harder than Train Kept A Rollin'. Constant Motion was released before Rock Band 2 (Constant Motion was released in August 2008. Rock Band 2 was released in September 2008). By your logic, Constant Motion should not be on the list since it's in the highest tier on the only Rock Band game that was available at the time of its release.

Additionally, Tiers are not set in stone. Rock Band 4 (if one is made) could up the Impossible cutoff -again-, causing the bass chart for Antibodies to become ranked at Nightmare instead of Impossible, which would make the bass chart qualify under your (arbitrary) conditions.
kitsunezeta
02:33:50 PM Dec 6th 2010
edited by kitsunezeta
I would like to add another follow-up to this and also present some known numbers which illustrate why Antibodies IS considered undertiered on Bass:

First off, the Impossible-Tier cutoffs appear to have been increased from Rock Band 2 to Rock Band 3, which means that if a "7" was Impossible-Tier in Rock Band 2 and an "8" was the (nonexistent) next tier up, 7.175 (Painkiller on bass, by the way) would be the bare minimum needed to classify as Impossible-Tier on Bass.

Run to the Hills (DLC) is a 7.250 on Bass, and it is rated above In a Big Country (which is difficult, but more than passable) and Antibodies, which means that both of those are rated between this 7.250 and Painkiller's 7.175. Souls of Black, which did make the RB 2 export set, is rated at 7.640 on Bass.

And in case you're wondering where all the data is coming from, try this list of every non-Rock Band Network song on the Rock Band platform that was rated Impossible-Tier on Bass in Rock Band 2.
kitsunezeta
topic
12:16:18 AM Sep 5th 2010
Okay, re: Biggest Show Ever being impossible in Full-Band: Here's my numbers for Green Grass And High Tides:

For Guitar by itself, the target score is 268,114 points, coming out to an average multiplier of approximately 3.50 (not counting bonuses from solos)

For Guitar and Drums (using an estimated note count of 3806 for Drums), the target score becomes 677,768 points, average multiplier approximately 3.95 (again, no solo bonuses counted)

For all instruments (2124 notes on Bass), the target score becomes 1,208,189 points, and the required average multiplier becomes approximately 5.37. Unless my math is horribly horribly wrong (which has happened before), the best you can hope for without overdrive is a 4.5 (more accurately, a 4.47).

Now, when I say "average multiplier", I mean the average multiplier for each note hit, regardless of which instrument it is on, which is why the 4.47 is (on paper, at least) possible - the Bassist can obtain a 6x multiplier. However, the bassist only has 23.6% of the notes. While these average multipliers don't factor in overdrive usage, the context that these calculations are done says that overdrive is nonexistent.

Based off of this, I'd be hard-pressed to find a song that is possible to get 5 stars with all instruments on Expert with overdrive stripped as it is in the Biggest Show Ever challenge, and it might even be impossible in itself if Ace Of Spades (the encore added by the challenge) is impossible under these conditions (which is what I'm going to look at next.)
GamerAmI
03:48:11 AM Sep 5th 2010
Derp, I forgot about the fact that overdrive isn't allowed in Biggest Show Ever. Silly me. My apologies.
Alucard
topic
01:43:52 AM May 1st 2010
edited by Alucard
I've compiled a list of all the genres represented:
  • Alternative
  • Blues
  • Classic Rock
  • Emo
  • Glam
  • Grunge
  • Indie
  • Jazz
  • Metal
  • New Wave
  • Novelty
  • Nu-Metal
  • Other
  • Pop
  • Progressive
  • Punk
  • Rock
  • Southern Rock
  • Urban
Any way we could incorporate this into the article?
codenamehunterwolf
03:11:23 PM Jul 15th 2010
What if we listed the genres avalible out of the box from the first two games, then listed the rest as download content?
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