Video Game Kingdom Hearts 358 Days Over 2 Discussion

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12:34:03 AM May 23rd 2013

  • Deconstruction: Xion is one of the Mary Sue concept. At first glance, she's exactly like a self-insert character — she's the 14th member of the Organization, she looks like Kairi, she can wield the Keyblade, and is friends with Axel and Roxas. However, it turns out her entire existence is a lie — all of the Organization members aside from Roxas either think she should be destroyed or only want her alive to further their own goals, the nature of her existence means she and Roxas cannot co-exist without one of them killing the other, and once she dies people instantly begin to forget she ever existed. Even in-universe, most characters think she has no right to exist and it would be better for the sake of Roxas and Sora if she didn't.

The bad things that happened to her are unrelated to her (subjective) Mary Sue traits, so that doesn't count as a Deconstruction.
01:22:00 AM May 23rd 2013
edited by
"The bad things that happened to her are unrelated to her (subjective) Mary Sue traits" - What does that have to do with it?

The entry explains perfectly well how she deconstructs it, people hate her or only want her alive to be manipulated, they forget she ever existed once she dies, she and Roxas cannot co-exist, and her existence just makes things worse for Roxas and Sora.

And what mod is it that told you to move it to discussion? And why?
01:27:21 AM May 23rd 2013
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From Deconstruction

"The simplest and most common method of applying Deconstruction to tropes in fiction among general audiences and fan bases, and the method most relevant to TV Tropes, takes the form of questioning "How would this trope play out with Real Life consequences applied to it?""

Xion fits that exactly. "How would you work in a 14th member in the story as a love interest for Roxas despite there only ever being 13 mentioned?" Well, you have a member that died before the game began, that no one remembers after she died, that was paired up with Roxas on purpose, and that was never considered an official member so they didn't do anything to prove she existed like the other members had. And then you give reasons for these things occurring.
03:03:00 AM May 23rd 2013
edited by
It has everything to do with it: "Deconstruction: Xion is one of the Mary Sue concept." Her Mary Sue traits are not regarding her existence, it's regarding her being shoehorned into the series.

There are essays all over the net you could look for that describe her Mary Sue traits in detail, none of which are deconstructed.

To be a deconstruction of a Mary Sue, all of her Sue traits would have to be taken apart. Yes, a lot of bad things happened to her, but NONE of them had to do with her Mary Sue traits.

"And what mod is it that told you to move it to discussion? And why?"

I'm not sure if they want me to reveal their name, so I'll just say they're a mod for one of the forums and whose main objective on TV Tropes for the past couple of years is to clean up articles. They told me the trope looks misused and should be moved her to the discussions page.
11:18:52 AM May 23rd 2013
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I ask because if they consider it misused I'd like to discuss it with them as much as you since they are part of the discussion now.

"Her Mary Sue traits are not regarding her existence, it's regarding her being shoehorned into the series." - *which is a Mary Sue trait*. There was no prior evidence of her existence and then suddenly "yeah there's a 14th member, Roxas and Axel's friend and she looks like Kairi".

I don't care about other essays on the net. Those people are not here, you and I are.

"To be a deconstruction of a Mary Sue, all of her Sue traits would have to be taken apart." - that's *exactly* what happens as I explained. She looks like Kairi because she's just a replica, she's paired up with Roxas to absorb his power, she's never mentioned post-Days because people forget she ever existed, there's no evidence of her existence because she was never an official member.

If the matter at hand is more a rewording of the Deconstruction entry, I can work with that. How's this?

Deconstruction: Xion is one of the Mary Sue characters created by fans as a 14th Organization member — she's the 14th member of the Organization, she looks like Kairi, she can wield the Keyblade, and is friends with Axel and Roxas. However, it turns out all of these traits are lies or are purposefully set-up; she's not considered an official member, she looks like Kairi only because she's a Replica of Sora and Kairi is his strongest memory, she wields the Keyblade because she's a Replica, and she's paired up with Roxas on purpose because she's intended to kill him and absorb his power.
11:49:33 AM May 23rd 2013
Hi, guys,

I am the person who Reika talked with and who recommended to pull to discussion.

Just as a clarification: I am a forum herald, a member of the wiki staff, but not a moderator. I do not have authority over other tropers.

Now that I am no longer messaging from a phone, I have to ask if that character is a fanon insert or a in-story character. I figure that will be the main question here.
11:55:28 AM May 23rd 2013
Which "that character" ?
12:17:52 PM May 23rd 2013
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She's an in-story character.

And I apologize for making you out as a moderator. I didn't know.
12:34:08 PM May 23rd 2013
If she's portrayed in-story or by the narrative as a deconstruction of Mary Sue, then her example can stay in the main page, as it would be part of the work, not audience reaction.
12:37:28 PM May 23rd 2013
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That's the thing, though: She's NOT portrayed as one. Bad things happen to her, but none of it has to do with her Mary Sue traits. Her Sueish traits are never brought into question or taken apart in any of the games, plots, stories, etc.

To clarify to anyone else reading: I am NOT Complaining About Shows You Don't Like. I love Xion a lot, I just don't think she qualifies as Deconstruction.

1. Her personality is perfect; she lacks personality faults, a common trait of Mary Sues. Any "mistakes" she makes are all completely justified and do not count as character flaws. Her personality stays this way for the entire game and all subsequent games.

2. Very early on in the game, she becomes instant BFFs with 2 of the most popular characters of the series (Axel and Roxas. While the friendship between those 2 characters later becomes rocky, their friendship with Xion never wavered. When she died, it was established that because she would no longer exist (see point 4 below), none of the characters would be able to remember her because there would be no her to remember. That is the only reason her friendship with Axel and Roxas ends, because they can't remember... except that Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance shows that they DO remember her somewhat, just not completely, even though Days explicitly says that this cannot happen ever. Why it did is never explained or taken apart.

3. Speaking of friendships, allow me to bring up Riku, one of the most popular characters for fangirls of the series and Sora's best friend. Roxas and Xion are both part of Sora, who is comatose during almost the entirety of Days. The only way Sora can wake up is if Roxas and Xion return to Sora. Kingdom Hearts 2 shows us that Riku, while feeling pity for Roxas and Roxas' situation, was willing to take Roxas by force to wake Sora up. In Days, he does not do this to Xion. He lets it be HER decision, even though if Xion refused, Sora might never wake. In Kingdom Hearts 2, this was not a risk he was willing to take. For reasons unexplained, it's a risk he's willing to take for Xion and Xion only. This is never taken apart in-story. He remains this way to her right up until he loses his memories of her.

4. Her death. She died because she was added into a midquel which was developed AFTER the first 2 sequels. The sequels, of course, did not have her in them. She HAD to die in the midquel or the sequels wouldn't make sense. And even then, she got a pretty sparkly death (as opposed to another clone who died in darkness while receiving pity from the person he was cloned after) and somehow managed to continue being a character past that. In Deep Dive (Deep Dive was a very popular trailer for Kingdom Hearts 2 and was redone as a scene in Kingdom Hearts 2, which of course didn't have Xion in it; 358/2 Days added Deep Dive as part of the ending), she became a Keyblade for some reason and showed Riku some of his memories of her that was losing thanks to her death. Her inclusion in Deep Dive is never expanded upon.

5. Days explained that, because Xion's existence was comprised completely of the memories of the main character Sora, when Xion gave the memories back to Sora she would stop existing altogether. Yet she remains a sentient entity through the series thereafter and is almost guaranteed to returned despite the game she debuted in specifically stating that this was impossible. Why this happens is never properly explained, despite 3 games having been added to the series since then.

6. Her Keyblade. A Keyblade is a very special weapon in the games that, despite quite a few main characters having one, is still pretty exclusive. The Keyblade has a few powers, but the one I want to mention here is the capturing of hearts. One of the main enemy monsters of the games are Heartless, beings that steal people's hearts (not physical hearts, mind you; in the games, a heart is where our emotions and most precious memories are stored within us and largely makes us who we are). Anybody can slay a Heartless, but the hearts it captured will just find their way into other Heartless. The Keyblade, however, can prevent hearts from going into other Heartless. In essence, a Keyblade is the only way to truly kill Heartless. Xion is a clone of the Keyblade wielder, Sora. Her Keyblade is fake, yet it's able to doe everything a real Keyblade can do. This SHOULDN'T be possible, as only genuine Keyblades can have that power. Once again, Xion is a sole exception to the established rules of the games and it's never explained why.

7. Any bad things that happen to her are never her fault and the game treats it this way as well, with all but the big bads sympathizing with how badly she's treated (her bad treatment, by the way, is usually done by the big bads).

Xion is treated as an extremely special character with no explanations as to WHY. She just IS, end of story. And the games never tear ANY of these things apart or present them in a realistic manner. And the bad things that happened to her are either unrelated to her Sue traits or not caused by them.
01:55:42 PM May 23rd 2013
okay, we're into Wall of Text. I'm out, you win. Not invested enough to get into it this heavy.
02:01:15 PM May 23rd 2013
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I'm sorry. I just wanted to make sure I explained correctly and didn't leave anything out.
07:50:42 PM Aug 18th 2012
edited by MugenKagemaru

  • Or Was It a Dream?: Roxas is with Organization XIII for 358 days. However, he wakes up (in the simulated Twilight town) and considers the events a dream. The evening he goes to sleep and the morning he wakes up is over 2 days.)

Roxas saying that he'd had "another dream about him" actually refers to the flashbacks of Sora's memories that he was seeing between days in KH2. To be honest, I find this to be a fail on Square Enix's part for not including the flashbacks from KH2's perspective and thus giving the implication that the removed entry was presenting.
08:11:50 AM Nov 22nd 2010

  • Broken Masquerade: The Organization is supposed to be a secret. There are even "stealth"-based missions. Fridge Logic kicks in after you realize Roxas introduces himself to Hayner, Pence, and Olette. Nope, nothing suspicious about the two guys wearing ankle-length, matching black coats, nothing at all...
    • Despite their "stealthy" approach to missions, those three, and a handful of important characters like Aladdin and Jasmine, are the only characters that appear. Unlike most RPGs, background NPCs are completely non-existent, so for their focus on secrecy there's really no one around to see them anyway.

Because The Masquerade clearly isn't broken in canon, Fridge Logic or no.

Because that's not a trope.

  • 20 Bear Asses: A large portion of the game. As a result of the desire to produce "bite-sized" chunks for playing on the go with a portable system, the gameplay is divided into several dozen individual missions that can be attempted or forfeited at the player's whim.

There isn't a single sidequest of this type in the entire game. How is it so many people fail to read tropes before adding them?
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