Literature Codex Alera Discussion

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MasterGhandalf
Topic
07:55:51 PM Sep 20th 2012
Is Kitai really an Innocent Fanservice Girl? I always got the impression she adapted to Aleran clothing conventions quite well early on, even if she finds them annoying, and that most of her later tendencies towards casual nudity were either to tease people, particularly Tavi, or when she wants to seduce Tavi (in which case the fanservice isn't exactly "innocent"). Female Marat who aren't as familiar with Alerans (such as Kitai's cousin whose name escapes me at the moment- the one who leads the Horse Clan force on loan to Tavi/Scipio in Captain's) would seem to fit better.
SilverWings
Topic
06:38:37 PM Sep 19th 2012
I'm a new fan to this series, halfway through book one, and I F***ING HATE KORD!!! But he gave me an idea: Slavery Is a Special Kind of Evil as a trope?
MrDeath
10:03:03 AM Sep 20th 2012
edited by MrDeath
Welcome to the club. Believe it or not, though, he ain't even the worst.

If you want to make a new trope, take it to YKTTW.
MasterGhandalf
07:51:47 PM Sep 20th 2012
Kord isn't the most evil villain in the series Kalarus has to take the cake on that one; Invidia's up there too, though she's more selfish than sadistic but he is probably the most hatable, I feel, if only because of how utterly, monstrously petty he is. At least Kalarus had the sheer guts of his plan going for him. At least Kord gets what's coming to him at the end of Calderon.
JBK405
Topic
08:02:34 AM Nov 26th 2011
edited by JBK405
Pizza Jedi 81, please stop re-adding those extra bits to the Sequel Hook entry, they are not examples of a Sequel Hook.

As I said in my latest edit comment, a hook is not something that could, theoretically, be followed up in a sequel. It's not any unresolved plotline. A hook is something that is inserted to set up a sequel. It's somethig obvious. Something intentional.

All the minor plotlines (Like Crassus, politics, etc.) might never come up again in Tavi's life, or the history of Alera. I'm not saying they will never come up again, I'm saying is that there's nothing telling the reader "this is going to be big in the future." However, the Vord Queens got an explicit mention, telling Tavi that this issue will come to a head.

Please stop re-adding these examples.

EDIT: In fact, the page for the trope actually addresses the issue: "In fact, this method is so common the audience will identify any unresolved plot element or any ending short of Happily Ever After or Kill 'Em All as a hook."

Just because a plotline isn't completely concluded doesn't make it a hook, sometimes it's just an unresolved plotline.
PizzaJedi81
02:44:44 PM Nov 26th 2011
edited by PizzaJedi81
THOSE ARE NOT, FOR THE LAST TIME, MINOR PLOTLINES! Political manipulation, fear-mongering and Tavi's legitimacy have been, from the onset, major plots and motivations for characters. Knwoing that politicians like...the guy whose name I can't remember, who was explicitly mentioned in the epilogue as a potential threat to Tavi politically, both in terms of undermining the Alliance and presenting opposition to the New Academy, potentially destroying them in their infancy, which would have far-reaching effects, not the least of which would be a lack of preparation for when the Vord return. ALL of these get an explicit mention of being future problems that Tavi will have to deal with, as you are so fond of saying.

If you truly believe that politics is not as important as the war in these books, you've been misunderstanding everything about it.

The only example I chose that I'm almost willing to concede, ALMOST, is the one about Crassus. It certainly does seem minor, comparatively, but it could end up being that he rallies support in favor of those who would bring down Tavi...or he could bring together an Alliance of his own in a Big Damn Heros moment pulling Tavi's ass from the fire. Hell's bells, he could even set up his own Empire, with or without Tavi's blessing. All we know is that Tavi will have to deal with his, for lack of a better word, betrayal of Crassus at some point.

I will remove that one from future edits, but everything else is entirely valid as a Sequel Hook.
JBK405
03:30:20 PM Nov 26th 2011
edited by JBK405
I think we're talking at cross-purposes here (Which is, perhaps, my own fault for poorly explaining my point).

Senator Valerius (He's the guy you couldn't remember) will almost certainly be a political rival of Tavi's for years to come, probably for the rest of his life; he might very well bring down the alliance and cast all of Alera into oblivion when the Vord Queens arrive. However, there's no indication that he's planning a rebellion like Kalarus, no indication that he's looking to place himself on the First Lords throne like Aquitaine, no actual plotline except generic obstruction and a "business as usual" attitude toward government. He's a douche, but he's a douche without a story. The series doesn't end with "And watch out for Valerius, because he's coming for you" it ends with "Valerius is continuing to be an ass like he's done for several chapters now, and we'll probably never be rid of him or people like him, but that's just the way things are." He's like Pluvus Pentius (From Fury of Calderon); a problem, yes, potentially a big one, but not the point of the story or the plot itself.

Crassus could also make a lot of trouble for Tavi, but there's nothing to even remotely suggest he will do any such thing. He's personally pissed at him, but there wasn't even a hint that he was speaking out against him politically or was looking to form his own empire. His plot ended with "Tavi, our friendship is over," not "You betrayed me and I'm going to make you pay."

"A Sequel Hook is something in a work that suggests that there is a clear possibility for another story;" except Valerius and Crassus are only the vaguest, most generic possible plotlines, assuming they even conflict with Tavi at all. Much like Senator Arnos they'd be the backup plot, the sidestory, as Tavi deals with the real threat of the Vord Queen (The conflict with Arnos might have been climax of Captains Fury, but it was only a means to an end of dealing with the Canim. He wasn't the plot, he was practically the MacGuffin). They certainly could be big, climactic battles if that's how Jim Butcher develops it (Valerius as the political manipulator, Crassus as the noble figurehead and combatant, working together to bring Tavi down), but that's not what the series ends with. The series ends with "Valerius is a tool, and I'm sorry me and Crassus aren't friends anymore, but I've got make it all come together because of the Vord, that's the question of the future."

I'm not saying they're not important, I'm saying that the series does not foreshadow their presence as being integral to the future plot.
JBK405
09:13:43 PM Dec 6th 2011
Without more discussion or commentary I'm going to remove the entry, this has been untended for days.
DukeGoddess
Topic
07:55:12 PM Oct 21st 2011
Gaius mentions in the third book about adopting Aquitaine and appoint him as heir(right in the Prologue) Does that fall under Hilarious in Hindsight? Or Checkov's something?
JBK405
10:01:47 PM Oct 21st 2011
I don't believe so. Hilarious in Hindsight is not a trope, and the Chekhov bits usually require the first part to be integral to the second part later on; just mentioning something as a possibility to see it happen later really doesn't count.
Zaptech
10:34:03 PM Oct 22nd 2011
Might best count as simple Foreshadowing.
DARTHYAN
Topic
04:38:29 PM Sep 29th 2011
edited by MrDeath
Some people have accused the series of having an immature view of rape. More specifically at least one site says that because the villains son was victim of a women who lied about being raped that it was rape apology. Also the fact that the collars could make you enjoy rape was also seen as making people feel bad.

this is the link that stands out http:cyborgelf.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/codex-alera-even-worse-than-the-dresden-files-2/

JBK405
06:16:44 PM Sep 29th 2011
This is the page for discussing changes to this page, a discussion about rape politics as they refer to this series should be taken to the forums.
DARTHYAN
06:19:14 PM Sep 29th 2011
k. thanks. I'd move it myself but my cut and paste feature is busted at the moment. otherwise i would
MrDeath
07:13:54 AM Sep 30th 2011
edited by MrDeath
That said, the writer of that review is clearly an idiot. "Harry never grows up and the characters are like the Holodeck: they only exist when someone is running the program. Itís sad that there are some interesting characters that show up pretty early." This completely ignores the massive character development he's had, and that most all of the side characters clearly develop outside of the viewpoint (for a start, Billy and Georgia, who grow up, fall in love, get married, and have a child off screen, Molly growing up, Murphy's career and development, etc.)

Then, the reviewer goes on to not bother to learn any of the characters' names, and completely and utterly misunderstands the very plot they're railing against, and, apparently, what "rape apology" actually is.

In short, yeah, I wouldn't listen to what the idiot has to say in the first place.
Zaptech
11:25:30 AM Oct 16th 2011
Someone's being stupid on the internet?! Say it ain't so!
MrDeath
09:56:13 AM Oct 17th 2011
edited by MrDeath
I suppose I should more direct my statement toward Darthyan to ask him to stop posting things from random crackpots who can't be bothered to actually pay attention to the story. I'm all for valid discussion, but this and a previous post by him on The Dresden Files' discussion page both basically amount to, "Some crackpot with little to no sense of reading comprehension says Jim Butcher is racist/misogynist."

It's only giving attention to people who don't know what the heck they're talking about.

Edit: After reading more into the Dresden thing, perhaps I spoke too rashly, as that seems to be a legitimate grievance. I stand by my statement on this, however.
TeraChimera
Topic
07:07:03 PM Jan 11th 2011
edited by TeraChimera
I'm thinking of sticking a trope on the page, but it's a bit iffy and could easily be seen a not an example, so rather than start an edit war, I figured I'd test it out here.

  • Ass Pull: At the end of Captain's Fury, Tavi defeats Navaris in the juris macto by forcing her into a Villainous Breakdown by calling her "Phrygiar Navaris", revealing that, due to her matronymic name, she's an illegitimate child. He then mocks her for her constant urge to prove herself to her unknown father, causing her to let her guard down. Aleran naming conventions had never been brought up previously, so there was nothing to hint as to her illegitimacy, and there were few, if any, hints as to her Well Done Daughter Girl personality. In effect, several crucial aspects of Navaris, including the core of her personality and her only known weakness, were pulled out of thin air.

Tell me whether or not this fits; I don't want to get into an edit war with someone over a small aspect of a series.
MasterGhandalf
07:23:35 PM Jan 11th 2011
Well, if you pay attention to the naming conventions, remember that Antillar Maximus is illegitimate, while his brother Antillus Crassus isn't, so while it was never outright stated, the groundwork was there. As for Navaris's personal issues, Tavi was mostly guessing, but he was smart and lucky enough that he was right. So no, I wouldn't consider it an Ass Pull.
TeraChimera
06:43:30 AM Jan 12th 2011
You'd have to pay close attention and put several seemingly unrelated points points together to realize that "-us" means legitimate and "-ar" means illegitimate before it was revealed, so the groundwork was mostly concealed. But, as you said, it was there, so I won't stick this on there, even if it did seem to come out of the blue for me. Thanks for the reply.
Zaptech
06:22:22 PM Mar 26th 2011
Also, there were hints that Navaris' name was all that was really important to her. When Isana is confronting her, she notes that Navaris' name is the only thing she has, and Tavi is listening to this and notes Navaris' reaction. Its a subtle thing, but Butcher was hinting at it.
SannaSK
Topic
02:10:40 PM May 19th 2010
Are discipline collars examples of Restraining Bolt ? Base trope states that the wearer usually /wants/ the bolt removed, which is rarely the case with the collars. Does that make them sub/inversions? (I get a little fuzzy on sub/in/aversions.)
Zaptech
01:29:43 PM Nov 5th 2010
They are a Restraining Bolt, depending on who you're asking. Odiana, for example, is absolutely horrified by how they work, and she says that wearing one results in you constantly screaming mentally to get it removed. See the quotes page on Mind Rape.
hobbitguy1420
11:45:18 PM Nov 5th 2010
I'd say they count, because if the collars themselves weren't manipulating the victim's emotions they'd definitely want 'em off. The Mind Rape aspect just makes 'em extra Nightmare Fuel laden
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