Could Penny's (Ten) swords be a refference to the Tarot card 'Ten of Swords', I read one interpretation of a disaster, murder of; 'reputation' or 'idea', or being stabbed in the back. ,.,,., Pyrha/Beacon/Atlas got their 'rep' murdered, Penny was the 'idea' of the future, Pv P was a friend killing a friend for the 'betrayal', and the card can also mean 'communication' and Cinder certainly got her measage across the entire planet. .,.,.,.,., http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/ten-of-swords.shtml
(source) ,.,.,., No I do not read Tarot cards I just got bored enough to read the card meanings a few months back
In the third volume folder for fridge logic on chess metaphors it is clear that Cinder is not the queen Ozpin's group refers to. Instead it is Salem, I think that section needs to redone, but I don't trust myself to do it.
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Changed up it to more accurately reflect the show and added some of Ozpin's Lieutenants, does that work better?
I'm pretty sure that Salem is the queen they were referring to. Which only really came up once (not referring to the virus). When Qrow sent Ozpin the message in Vol. 1 that said 'Queen has pawns', I'm sure that it is Salem he is talking about. Cinder is just another pawn, a very valuable pawn but a pawn non the less.
Edited by Lord-Jaric
Agreed, Salem is the "Queen" that they refer to. But the chess imagery is code to make it more difficult for people to understand their messages. They're referring to her as a "Queen" in the real life sense, in that she is the monarch of the kingdom, directing people around. A queen in chess is different, queens in chess are meant to be in the thick of battle and are the most physically powerful pieces on the board.
A monarch is closer in role to a king in chess, not physically powerful, but the single most important piece on the board. Salem is the most important piece on her side because she keeps her people from murdering each other.
Cinder on the other hand is the most physically powerful baddie because she's a maiden. But, like a queen in chess, she's powerful, but her safety is only secondary to the king/Real Queen. If Oz and Co. killed Cinder, the bad guys would just find a new candidate for the fall maiden, which is difficult, but not impossible. If Oz and Co. killed Salem, Salem's whole alliance would likely fall apart into backstabbing.
And onto your last thing, about how Cinder is just another valuable pawn? Isn't that exactly what a queen is in chess? A pawn that's just more valuable because it got to the end of the board? A queen is worth just as much as a pawn in comparison to the importance of a king.
Basically, TLDR: Yeah, Salem's a literal Queen from real life, but not a chess type of queen, she's closer to the role of a king in chess, while Cinder is closer to the role of a queen from chess. And yes, when it comes down to it, Cinder is ultimately a valuable pawn, but that's what a queen is in chess.
since i don't want to turn this into an edit war could someone other then myself review the Illia gay/faunus thematic fridge brilliance entry and see whether it should be there or not. thank you for your time
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Not a mod or anything but the post seems legit.
I looked over your original edit, and I think I see the problem you were having, the original entry was worded a bit oddly, and I suspect the intent was lost in translation, so I'll try to explain what the OP was trying to say.
Long story short: What the original Fridge Brilliance writer was trying to say was that as a chameleon, Ilia could pass as human despite being a Faunus. As such, makes sense that Ilia is the first canonically LGBTQ character in RWBY, because this is similar to how members of the LGBTQ community can also pass as straight, even though it is denying a fundamental part of themselves, just like how Ilia's colors are a fundamental part of her.
Long story with a little bit more context: This "passing as straight" is kind of a big issue in the LGBTQ community, discrimination forces some to hide their sexuality from collegues, friends, and families to keep from being persecuted. This is particularly important to children and teens because while they might be LGBTQ, their parents may not be as accepting, and since children and teens are particularly financially dependent on their parents, they have more at stake if they're found out. Adults and children can and have been thrown out of their houses, homes, and schools because of their orientation. That's why 'coming out' to someone is a big deal, a person's sexuality can be a dangerous secret and choosing to share it can be a calculated risk, it coming out accidentally can be catastrophic.
This ties back to RWBY because this whole issue in the real world bears a striking resemblance to how Ilia was treated in her Atlas Prep School before and after they found out she was a faunus. She tried to pass as "normal" because she was worried that the academy and her friends would disown her if she came out, and when they found out she was different, they turned on her (more or less, again, it's a complex issue, in the show, Ilia wasn't entirely blameless in the ensuing fight, but the broad strokes are similar).
Going back to the matter of the Fridge entry, the OP didn't really explicitly spell all of this out, since, as you can guess, this is a complex and nuanced issue, so I can see how it could be confusing, I'll probably pop in later and reword it so it's clearer.
Also, to address the other point in your edit I feel like "Ilia's sexuality is only used to add more drama to the character dynamics not because she's a faunus who could appear human." is kind of besides the point. Fridge Brilliance doesn't necessarily require input from the creator, it just has to be something that makes sense in context and isn't immediately clear.
By the way I'm pretty sure that "Ilia's sexuality is only used to add more drama to the character dynamics" is really pushing the limits of being respectful to the show, and to the OP. There has already been at least one incident in the edits over comments about Ilia's sexuality, and the Fridge Brilliance section is better suited for in-universe analysis rather than starting a meta-analysis of choices by the writers (Less chance of a flame war, especially since this is a hot button topic. Large portions of the RWBY community have been asking for a canon LGBTQ character for years and whether Ilia was a good choice is under extensive...'debate' in the fandom).
Lastly, if you want to know more on thematic similarities, I kind of went on a tangent below about how Ilia's suppression of her sexuality mirrored her suppression of her faunus side, so if you want to read, go ahead. But if you don't want to, suffice it to say there are more: Ilia passed as a human because being a faunus made life harder for her, and it hurt her to suppress that part of herself, and she only revealed her true colors in a fit of anger. Her sexual identity as not being straight (she's probably a lesbian, but I'm not going to assume anything) is similar. She covered up her feelings to pass as straight because it was easier to do so, and didn't make her relationship with Blake more complicated. But that ended up hurting her in the long run like her suppression of her faunus characteristics because Blake ended up not only oblivious, but in an abusive relationship.
I guess you're right but it still feels a little agenda pushing in my opinion but hey i really don't feel like starting any wars right now so I'll let it be
Thank you for listening. While the OP was a bit vague, the fridge brilliance was there, and regardless of what the brilliance was saying, the similarities between Ilia's faunus heritage and her orientation were a valid point to make.
Okay. I'm just wondering out loud here, since my Fridge Horror addition about Jaune & Cinder thing got removed twice already, so I just wanted to know if I am misunderstanding something here:
So, Jaune is standing there, keeping an eye on the entrance while Ozpin and Pyrrha do their thing. Then when Pyrrha starts screaming, Jaune turns back to check on her in panic, leaving the entrance unchecked. That's when Cinder arrives, and she takes advantage of Jaune being distracted to sneak in close and kill Amber. Had Jaune not getting distracted and keep an eye on the entrance, he would've seen Cinder coming. This leads to two possibilities:
1. Jaune tries to engage her on her own, and considering that he's leagues below Cinder in terms of skills, he's clearly doomed if she fight back.
2. Jaune warns Ozpin, and the two fight Cinder together. They may hold out long enough until the aura transfer process is complete. But then, Pyrrha would become Cinder's new target and risks getting killed by her.
What I'm trying to say is, both will most likely result in either Jaune or Pyrrha becoming a casualty of Cinder's attempt to gain the Fall Maiden's power because they get in her way, that's the Fridge Horror I'm trying to add. What really happened in the episode is that there's no one standing in her way so she's free to accomplish her goal without opposition, averting it. Granted, I'm doing a lot of guesswork here, but seeing that the aura transfer process is already in progress, getting the Fall Maiden's power would be Cinder's #1 priority. So it's almost certain that she won't show any mercy on anyone who gets in her way. On the other hand, when she already has the power, she let Jaune and Pyrrha go after Ozpin told them to get reinforcements. Why didn't she kill them? She just stares at them curiously while they circle around her before turning her attention to Ozpin. Maybe she has plans for them in the future? Maybe one or both of them are secretly related to her? Or maybe she wants challenge, real challenge from veteran huntsmen on Ozpin's level, not students whom she knew she could deal with in her sleep.
That's about it. None of the above might not belong to any Fridge group at all according to you guys, but I just wanted to clarify it so some of you can explain how I got it wrong, or that it should belong to something else and not on the Fridge page. Also, sorry for any bad English here if I made them.
Edited by Willy2537 Hide / Show Replies
Fridge horror is when you realize something that seems innocent at first has some horrifying double meaning that takes a while to notice or realize, what you have doesn't qualify, but I'm sure there's a trope it does apply too, just look for it.
"These seem fine to me."
These don't seem right. But Fridge Brilliance also seems to lack clear definition, or restriction. It falls into pure conjecture. The page would be/was swamped with really thin examples, like: "Weiss wears all white because she's winter-themed".
Examples like these sound like Fridge Brilliance to me:
"Pyrrha didn't use any recoil from her weapon to slow her descent, and just smashed through everything until she stopped. While this in itself is a viable strategy, it makes more sense given that she was intending to help Jaune all along. Since he was just falling, with nothing stopping him, she couldn't slow herself down and still land in time."
The rest of these do not:
- A meta example: the shipping name 'White Rose' is a reference to Weiss and Ruby, but also a literal description of Ruby's sigil.
Its a fan-term, a ship name. This isn't tied to the show, mentioned, or integral. A meta example about something created outside of the show, does that fit?
- The iconic pose Ruby makes against the moon in her trailer is subtly repeated in the other three. Weiss poses in front of a window's streaming light before delivering the finishing blow to the knight, Blake poses in front of the shattered moon after doing a launch attack with Gambol Shroud against the Spider Mecha, and Yang backflips after punching Junior, posing up against the disco ball at the club as she reaches the height of the flip.
How is this a sudden realization? This is a pattern that establishes...? This one doesn't seem to fit.
- There's a neat callback during the Food Fight when once again in a fight, Ruby does a Flash Step directly in front of Weiss. Only this time, instead of screwing up Weiss's attack, it was to take the shot from Nora that Weiss was trying to brace for.
So a Call-Back is Fridge Brilliance?
- Going back to Volume 1: When Nora and Ren are introduced, a joke is made of Nora's motor-mouth nature by having her constantly gabble over the duo's morning activities. Note how she seems to continue talking about the same subject over each timeskip. Impossible, yes? This could be seen as just a weird mistake... or it could imply that Nora is so scatterbrained, that she keeps looping the monologue back around to the same subjects over and over and over again.
...Really?
- Why did Penny sound unnaturally cheery and exceedingly strict in her diction at the end of Volume 1? Because she's a robot, as revealed in Volume 2, Episode 3. It is likely that her personality hadn't developed much beyond that of a basic AI at the time of first meeting the gang, and in the few weeks between the fight and meeting Ruby again, it could have developed, and is now much more subtle, and more natural.
Conjecture?
- Now that we know that Weiss has a sister, her comment back in season one about how she always wanted bunk beds as a kid suddenly makes more sense.
How? What? What part of that "makes more sense"? It means she had a sister but they slept in separate rooms, or beds. It's not Fridge Brilliance, an immediate realization that makes the whole thing better. It's a bland observation.
—
And another matter, why were all the Fridge Logic entries moved to Headscratchers, while few seem to mind the increasingly dull Fridge Brilliance entries?
Edited by 67.239.231.115 Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024). Hide / Show Replies
I think you're being a bit of a stick in the mud here. Just because it doesn't seem terribly insightful to you doesnt make it problematic; it's not like it's hurting anything. What, do you think all the good ideas are only going to start crawling out of the woodwork if we make room for them? This is what people are coming up with, deal.
It's Trope Decay.
And in a sense, yes. Look at the CMOA and Fridge pages for franchises like Naruto and Bleach. They get congested with bad entries that start with "this troper felt" and similar hyperbole.
If it doesn't fit the incredibly vague definition of the trope, should it be here? If the Laconic is too vague to censor entries, shouldn't the definition be made stricter? This shouldn't be a dumping ground for "Oh, one of the cast members said this, now that makes sense!"
And some of these aren't what the trope is. There are some entries I think are plain stupid, some that are okay, some that are pretty interesting, and then there are were some entries that ignored the trope's definition. Some are pure speculation.
Entries like this one:
That's Fridge Brilliance.
This one?
Heck no.
Edited by 67.239.229.245 Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).
You may be right about some of these, though with others it seems more like you're doing exactly what some of these people putting these relatively vague examples are doing: projecting YOUR opinion about what does and doesn't constitute Fridge Brilliance. If it seems brilliant to someone, they put it up there, and who are you or anyone to say they're wrong?
And what do you suggest is done about it? Remove them? Based on who's judgement? Who has the right to decide what's brilliant and what isn't? For example, I actually wrote the one about Nora's introduction, a realization that was a classic Fridge moment for me. I thought it was brilliant. But you reply with a sardonic "Really?", implying you find it to be anything but. But who's right? If one of us is just correct and the other isn't, that implies that the "winner's" opinion is more important, which obviously isn't true.
Ultimately, it comes down to the entire Fridge kind of being YMMV.
What happened to all the Fridge Brilliance that was here?
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A lot of what was "there" were bland observations like, "This character has white hair, and this makes sense because she dresses in white clothing, which symbolizes that she likes winter, because she's winter-themed, and she has ice powers..."
That example doesn't really indicate any sort of brilliant deduction and isn't very significant, or factual, they're mostly pure speculation. You might as well point out how the hairstyles of every character are somehow relevant to the overall plot.
Edited by 67.239.230.251 Akira Toriyama (April 5 1955 - March 1, 2024).
So, we're good with one person just deleting the entire page wholesale? no discussion or moving it to it's own page, just deleting it? Seems like the sort of thing you'd at least discuss before hand.