1. That is fair. Makes more sense.
2. That is true
3. Eh compare to future paradox, not as bad. Plus, ensemble dark horses are usually ones a majority likes and not everyone has to like them. What about the other two? Also I wonder what the others think?
Once a month has passed since Mochi Mayhem, can Pecharunt be added to here? Compare to the other mythical pokemon, it did not get heavily promoted. Plus it has gained popularity thanks to both story lore, abilities, and that video called The Untold Tale of Pecharunt?
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It's still this generation's mythical with a major part in the backstory of 4 different legendaries, so I say no.
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Are any of DLC future paradox swords of justice considered like and possible dark ensemble horse other than Iron Leaves?
Should Guzma be removed? He's one of Gen 7's two main villains, which I feel makes him major enough not to qualify. This trope is for minor characters who are unexpectedly popular.
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I agree.
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Given that Selene is one of the playable characters, I feel she shouldn't qualify either. The other entries in Sun/Moon look fine. (See Mina's, which clarifies that she lacks screentime)
Can Greavard and Houndstone still be counted for this? The only issues people have with them are their habit of popping out and following the player like a majority. Other than that they are still popular Pokemon and liked for their design in the fandom.
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Go ahead.
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Can Tinkaton be added back to Esemble dark horse? It still count as popular pokemon., It even has its own wiki page. plus it won a poll. Hell some of the pokemon on here mentioned poll as part of reason for status on her.e
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She's been cut and readded multiple times, despite the fact that when I took the matter to ATT
, consensus was that she should stay. The latest cut is apparently because Tinkaton is also listed as a Base-Breaking Character. While a valid reason for a cut, I don't think the BBC entry itself is valid (it says that some people hate Tinkaton's design for being "stubby" when I have never seen that, runs mostly on the Hype Backlash and It's Popular, So It Sucks! reactions to the Pokémon than actual criticism, and, most crucially, said entry outright calls it an Ensemble Dark Horse) so I've brought it up for discussion in the forums. We'll see what happens.
Alright, she's back.
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Would Ogerpon count for this. Given ever since the DLC’s release, this Pokémon has become popular. People wanted to protect her and sue has a good design. Each maks is speciel and cool design. Plus the fact it different forms each with types and cool Terastel form helped a lot. Heck it’s backstory won many people over. What do you guys think?
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Ogerpon's a main character so it can't count.
Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.
I removed a lot of the Gen 9 Ensemble Darkhorses. If someone disagrees, please tell me. Because based on what I seen on twitter and other Pokémon fans, a lot of people dislike all of these, especially Gholdengo and Palafin. I don’t know where the poster got the idea that these are near universally well liked.
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I've hardly seen any hate for them myself. In particular, any source to people hating Palafin? It seems pretty universally well liked to me. And while Gholdengo was a first a love-it-or-hate-it affair, a lot of people have warmed up to it.
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You are invited here for further discussion.
Gary and Miette are on both the Ensemble Darkhorse and Base-Breaking Character pages. I also question if characters with as much importance as Gary or Zoey can belong on an Ensemble Darkhorse page
Should the anime version of May be added to the "Anime - general" section? I know she was a main character for a while, but she hasn't physically appeared for over a decade, since 2008, yet she placed in the top 5 in the Pokegirl polls of 2021 and 2022 (even going from fifth place in 2021 to fourth in 2022), many fans still talk about her on Twitter, still make fanart of her, and make fanfictions of her depicting her in more recent events of the series, meaning even younger fans who came on after she stopped being used like her?
So this has nothing to do with pulling or adding new entries, but how come the page says it was created this year?
I know that starters don't usually qualify, but what about Braixen?
It's rare for a middle-evolution starter to gain more popularity than either its unevolved form or its final form.
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It's part of the starter lines which are too major characters to count. Braixen is a Breakout Character, having received greater prominence in the franchise, as a result which is a more fitting entry to acknowledge its unexpected popularity.
The Dream Soldier
Meet The New Boss
OK, I agree that Lucario's promotion level being similar to the starters and Mascot Legendaries makes it fall under the clause of being a Breakout Character and not a true Darkhorse despite being genuinely highly popular, (and added a note about similar mons to the clause) but I'm wondering where we draw the line for whether a mon qualifies for that.
Like, I'm wondering if Mewtwo could count, as it's a very popular mon and still promoted pretty heavily (despite the extreme negative reaction to its portrayal the sixteenth anime movie being a setback that caused that to be toned down a bit as of late, and even then the attempts could still make it count - for example, Zoroark probably would've fallen under the clause if it'd actually succeeded in making it beyond Base Breaker).
I'd say Jigglypuff would be a contender but it stopped being promoted or popular outside of Smash over a decade ago.
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Thing about Mewtwo is its promotion came after it got popular. Back in the RBY days, it was popular due to its ridiculous power. Its promotion may have led to it being a Breakout Character, but it was already an Ensemble Dark Horse before that.
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Ah, OK. I'd argue first movie but I don't remember how much it was promoted outside of that back then since I was like, six, so if someone could do some digging that'd help if I don't do it myself.
So judging from that the criteria for any Pokemon that falls under the "breakout, not true darkhorse" category - starter, box legendary, something like Lucario, etc. - would have to be promoted heavily from the start to the point of pretty much being an intentional, meant-to-be-popular "main character" for the generation and/or the franchise as a whole?
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Outside of the first and 16th movie and Mega Mewtwo Y, Mewtwo wasn't really promoted that heavily. He's an iconic character and borderline example as far as I'm concerned.
Mewtwo wasn't pulled because it was too publicized, it was pulled because it's also listed under the (mutually exclusive) Base Breaker.
Though that surprises me, I thought Mewtwo (and Garchomp) were pretty universally popular.
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MagBas
The examples in question are listed in Base-Breaking Character in the YMMV pages to the pokemon games:
- Dragonite, Generation I's Pseudo-Legendary and the only Dragon-Type at the time. Dragonite waned in popularity as the generations went on due to being overshadowed by Salamence and Garchomp, but once Generation V bestowed upon it the hidden ability Multiscale, its usability skyrocketed.
- Mewtwo is never left out whenever the subject of legendaries comes up.
- Garchomp, Generation IV's Pseudo-Legendary. Particularly popular with the older crowd because of its incredible power, and popular with the younger crowd because it resembles what you'd get if you combined a Dragon, a shark, and a jet-engine fighter plane. It's also famous for being one of the first non-Legendary Pokémon to be banned by Smogon.
- Arceus earned its popularity very, very quickly.
Again, going back to "in need of cleaning badly". There are main characters listed on this page. N and Ghetsis are the main antagonists of two separate games, Emma's the focus of the post-game plot of the later of those, and the villain teams can hardly be called "background". Player characters might count since they have no default personality to speak of, but their friends who you run into frequently certainly have them.
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I've commented out the most offending entries I saw while looking over the page, at least to the best of my knowledge. Feel free to discuss whether or not they should be included, but I think characters as story-centric as N, Ghetsis, and Blue Oak do not meet the requirements of the trope.
Ensemble Dark Horse is defined as "popular minor character". The problem with the Pokemon video games section is that nearly every that Pokemon can be defined as "minor" in the games because they all receive more or less equal focus in the games, or at least, I think that must be the logic some people are using, because fan favorites are being listed by the dozen and I can't think of any other reason why. Many of these Pokemon receive substantial focus in the anime and other media and substantial use by the players. It's turned into nothing more than a list of popular Pokemon only there because of a twisted definition of "minor character" and not this trope.
Out of curiosity- if a character exclusive to a remake (i.e. Lisia, who has really caught on from what I've seen- maybe Zinnia too, but she seems a bit more story-vital so I don't know if she's "Darkhorse" enough) might be an Ensemble Darkhorse, would they go under the generation they're remaking (i.e. 3), or the generation they debuted in regardless of region (i.e. 6)?
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So... it's weird to me that Ash's Unova team has four Pokemon. I'm not familiar with Best Wishes, but that seems like it's... well... 2/3 of the main character's roster. Considering at least one of the two remaining slots is Pikachu it kinda seems like misuse, as not everyone can be an ED.
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I think it should be as "while every one of Ash's team has its fans Pokemon x and y are very popular for z reason" so only like one or two for the team not 2/3 of them.
Edited by 67.221.204.48
This page needs a comical amount of cleaning. Ensemble Dark Horse does NOT mean "popular Pokemon."
I mean, Pikachu is on the page. So are a ton of the starters and box legendaries, which are about as far from Ensemble Dark Horse material as you can possibly get. They can be a Breakout Character, but an Ensemble Dark Horse a character with unexpected popularity. Most of these characters were heavily pushed by Nintendo, thus not really a darkhorse.
I'm going to do some heavy trimming. We had to do the same on the YMMV.Pokemon page.
EDIT: I pulled all the starters, box legendaries, and Lucario. There's probably some more that shouldn't be there as well, but I got rid of the really obvious ones.
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Um, Pikachu was never meant to be the series mascot, Clefairy was; that fact alone should keep it on the page. Also, Ensemble Dark Horse does equal Popular, but Popular doesn't equal Ensemble Dark Horse (think about the whole relationship between Squares and Rectangles). One could also make an argument for Charizard since no other Starter has the same degree of popularity that it has, and being heavily marketed by Nintendo could also be proof that they recognize a Mon's Darkhorse status. Also, not all Mons pushed by Nintendo are Darkhorses, like Zoroark.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
I pulled Charizard and Zekrom because even though they are the most popular of their gens, they were still heavily marketed as mascots. By the pure definition, they can't be Ensemble Darkhorses. A Breakout Character in hindsight, but not darkhorses.
Pikachu wasn't popular until the anime. Clefairy was the original choice to be the mascot, but the writers decided to go another way. Not because of fan opinion, but because they changed their mind.
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Pulled Pikachu, again. He only became particularly popular after a very conscious choice to push him.
There are some Pokémon here where I'm wondering if they merit being on the page, specifically:
- Vulpix. Its entry on Pokémon: Generation I - Bulbasaur to Parasect lists it as a Breakout Character and notes that it was featured heavily in merchandise and other media, both early on in its Kantonian form and later in its Alolan form.
- Skitty. Similarly to Vulpix, I think it was highly marketed when the Hoenn games were new.
- Raging Bolt seems like more of a Base-Breaking Character than a straight Ensemble Dark Horse to me. Although the complaints about its appearance are less common than they were when it came out, it still has a fair number of detractors who see it as looking too goofy compared to the other members of its trio.
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