Discussion Characters / EldenRingOuterGods

I mean that's fair but all 3 of the Death concepts have that shared black flame aesthetic. There's a connection to be sure.

Oh, they certainly are connected and deserve to be mentioned. It's just that, since the game never confirmed anything and is ultimately ambiguous, it would be inappropriate and a bit disingenuous to pile them all into one folder, treat them as if they were the same group, and even use Destined Death as the official name of Twinbird's Outer God.

As someone who has done enough 'homework' on the subject, I veto this idea.

After looking through all available evidence, there is no evidence that the god Placidusax served was an Outer God, and is much more likely to be the previous holder of the Elden Ring like Marika. From Placidusax resembling the Fingers, to it being called Elden Lord, to the symbol of a primordial Elden Ring in Farum Azula, it's beyond the shadow of a doubt that Placidusax served under a vassal of the Greater Will.

The Crucible is not an outer god, it is the primordial form of the Erdtree - AKA, the Erdtree before Marika established the Golden Order. It was created by the Greater Will when sending the Elden Beast down into the world.

That's fair.

Hum... I am on the fence for this one. While that is a tempting idea, that would be ignoring a number of clues we have which DO point out to the existence of another outer god (Miquella’s eternal youth being likely a result of an outer god meddling, how Erdtree and Golden Order both are quite explicitly opposed to the Unalloyed Gold which Miquella invents, and the fact that said Unalloyed Gold has unclear but undeniable connection with Placidusax’s chamber), all of which suggest the dragon outer god does exist.

I am loathe to ignore the possibility that it does not exist, however. My suggestion would be emphasize both sides of the Ambiguous Situation we have as much as possible until we get a blunt, certain conclusion with DLC.

-Miquella's eternal childhood is never said to be due to an outer god's curse. That seems to have been pulled from nowhere on the assumption that he has to have the same manner of curse as Malenia.

-Unalloyed Gold is divergent from the current Golden Order, but quite explicitly not opposed to the Greater Will (as the soldiers guarding the Haligtree use Golden Order Fundamentalism incantations, and in 1.0's text, Radagon is a sponsor of the Haligtree). They're two entirely different things. The Golden Order is a creation of Marika confining the Rune of Death. She created it long after the Greater Will established itself, and it is explicitly founded under the idea that she is the One True God. Also, for what it matters, cut content makes it more or less explicit that Miquella's plan was to revise the Golden Order with the Elden Ring rather than to entirely dispense with the Greater Will. He was warding off the outer gods, but that seems to be in keeping with his allegiance to the Greater Will, who is never once called an outer god. The name "Unalloyed Gold" is also a hint at this; gold is clearly the color of the Greater Will, radiating from everything touched by its influence. "Unalloyed" gold implies that it's such because it's pure in its Greater Will influence, with no taint from any outer gods (and, implicitly, the human prejudices that corrupt its faith).

For that matter, there's no evidence that the Golden Order and Haligtree are even hostile to one another. Morgott and Malenia never fought each other and the regime in Leyndell apparently took no effort to stop the tree from being grown (as a fully functional state it'd have to long predate the Shattering). They seem to coexist without incident.

-Unalloyed Gold created by a Greater Will devotee having a connection to Placidusax's Chamber is just more evidence that there's no dragon god, because Placidusax himself was an Elden Lord with the Elden Ring emblazoned all over his palace. It fits together pretty well.

From what I can see the idea that a separate dragon god exists is based entirely on the supposition that Placidusax's fled god was an outer god rather than just another Empyrean.

- Seeing as there is no explicit text about it, I'd agree with it being an assumption. It doesn't come from nowhere, though - Miquella and Malenia's curses are described in the same sentence and the same Remembrance (Malenia's, to be specific), so a level of connection is undeniable. I don't know about other people, but personally I wouldn't so easily dismiss them as disparate.

- To clarify, the Greater Will has established its influence (Elden Star description) on the Lands Between for ages past (at minimum several millenia). Greater Will has had servants and followers trying to spread its faith over "countless wars" (Protection of the Erdtree description), before finally, they successfully established the Erdtree as the "embodiment of Order", beginning the Age of the Erdtree (Elden Lord Armor set).

This implicitly proves the prior age (Age of Stone, when the dragons ruled), was not an age in which the Greater Will is the dominant force. Because the dragons were said to rule the world during the Age of Stone, if they served the Greater Will then that age should have been the age in which the Greater Will became the dominant force.

In addition, the Two Fingers approve of the Golden Order (and in fact defend it more than Marika ever did, seeing as their assassins hunt those who try to fight it), so the concept of trying to "purify its faith" is almost certain to be logical inconsistency caused by the cut content. Keep in mind one of the primary traits of Greater Will, or at least its direct servants (that includes the Fingers and Elden Beast) and its followers are their insistence to ignore or overlook the flaws of the Golden Order.

- Seeing as the age in which the dragons ruled were not considered an age in which the Greater Will has established its Grace, it's almost (but not 100%) a certainty the dragons did not serve the Greater Will.

Your reading is entirely reliant on the idea that the Greater Will is the same thing as the Erdtree. In fact, the Greater Will had been established in the Lands Between since long before the Erdtree even existed, there are countless interchangeable Erdtrees, and Miquella is still in touch with the Greater Will while seeking to supplant the Erdtree. What's more, Hyetta makes it clear that the Greater Will is the source of sapient life in the Lands Between in general, disproving the idea that there was an age before it. Because that'd include the dragons.

"All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake. And so, what was borrowed must be returned. Melt it all away, with the yellow chaos flame. Until all is One again."

Your point also seems to be based on the idea that there was an "Age of Stone" prior to the Greater Will.... and for the life of me, I have no idea where you got this. I checked the game's script. "Age of Stone" occurs nowhere within it, not in any item description or dialogue. Are you confusing Elden Ring with Dark Souls, or is this another fan idea that's just proliferated? Placidusax ruled before the Age of the Erdtree, but again, Erdtree =/= Greater Will, and this time is never called "the Age of Stone." Placidusax is only ever referred to as a ruling Elden Lord, a title that's clearly tied to the Greater Will and nothing else (same as how "Elden Beast" is the title of the Beast vassalized to the Greater Will).

Your third point is reliant on the idea that the Greater Will = the Two Fingers, but that is very explicitly not the case. The Two Fingers are grasping at straws in the present, like anyone else, having no idea what the Greater Will or even its other servants are thinking. That's why the Two Fingers in Roundtable Hold are caught completely off guard by the idea that the Erdtree is blocking the entrance to the Elden Ring's chamber, because they and the Elden Beast are not in touch. Most likely because the Greater Will has stopped communicating with them.

EDIT: also, I just checked v 1.0. There's some now-removed text on the description of the Cinquedea which outright says that the god of Farum Azula (where Placidusax resides) is the Greater Will.

"1110000 Short sword given to high ranking pastors of Farum Azula. Raises potency of bestial incantations. The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence granted by the Greater Will."

The Greater Will being the cause for life in general on the Lands Between does not mean it has established a dominant influence yet. The idea that Protection of the Erdtree and Elden Star Incantations are trying to paint is that, there was an age in which the Greater Will has yet to establish that.

As proof, there are many, many ancient tribes and lifeforms who never even came into contact with Greater Will (at least before Marika's time) and formed their own faiths (Ancestral Followers, the ancient astrologers, the Fire Giants). This implies there were a very large period of time in which, after the creation of life as we know it, the Greater Will and other divinities are on a race to establish influence.

In other words. Yes, Greater Will's influence has touched the world since what is very likely the first forms of life began in the Lands Between. But it has yet to establish a base of power strong enough for it to implant its laws which can affect reality itself, prior to the Age of Erdtree.

Also, pardon me for using a fan term (Age of Stone is largely fanmade), but a prehistoric age in which the dragons ruled does exist. It has been mentioned sparsely, but most prominently in Dragoncrest Shield Talisman:

"The ancient dragons, who ruled in the prehistoric era before the Erdtree, would protect their lord as a wall of living rock. And so it is that the shape of the dragon has become symbolic of all manner of protections."

What I am trying to say is during this age, repeatedly referred to as "a time when there was no Erdtree" by various other items and spells, the Greater Will has yet to win the "countless wars" (likely with followers of other gods) which would eventually result in the establishment of the Erdtree.

I am not saying the Greater Will equates the Erdtree, I am saying its influence weren't enough to establish laws governing metaphysical reality of the Lands Between without a base of power; which is the Erdtree.

Now we go back to the statement you want to say; the dragons served the Greater Will.

If this is true, then why did the dragons not establish a base of power which could be called "embodiment of Order" like the Erdtree during their age, when they ruled the Lands Between? Farum Azula is indeed a base of power, but it looks nothing like Leyndell or the Erdtree, with none of Cosmic Motifs or World Tree motif which Greater Will has. As far as we know, the dragons also didn't establish a known Order which could shape laws of reality itself, all we know is that Farum Azula is a domain within "a storm beyond time" - a motif which is a far cry from anything the Greater Will ever establishes.

The simplest and most likely answer is because they did not serve the Greater Will. I am not saying it's the only answer, but simply the most likely, given the details we currently have.

Again, the idea that there was an age of dragons independent from the Greater Will depends on implicitly on equating the Greater Will to the Erdtree. But they're not the same thing. The Erdtree is merely one of the many tools of the Greater Will, and continues to to rule and act independently even when the Greater Will itself is absent. The Crucible existed before the Erdtree (Crucible Tree Armor) and was very likely a tool of the Greater Will given that the Greater Will created life in the Lands Between.

It seems like you're making a lot of assumptions by saying that the dragons even needed to establish an "embodiment of Order" separate from the Crucible and Elden Ring (they pretty clearly did use the latter). We've very little idea of what the world before the Erdtree even looked like or what the Greater Will wanted from it. But from what we know in the present, the Greater Will is hands-off and it's Marika and the Elden Beast who were/are taking action to build the Golden Order (which is a religion devoted to Marika specifically, not the Greater Will in general).

Also, as noted, 1.0 (which was still a release version of the game, so should at least have primacy over fan assumptions) outright states that the god of Farum Azula is the Greater Will. The priests in Farum Azula are chosen to guard the dragons, which is why they use dragon incantations (Farum Azula Beastmen Ashes), and they're friendly to the dragons there. That should more or less confirm that the dragons served the Greater Will.

I'll also emphasize this again - Placidusax was an Elden Lord. There are depictions of the Elden Ring in Farum Azula from a time before the Erdtree, and what appears to be the Crucible. Elden Lord is a title associated with the Greater Will and the word "Elden" is synonymous with its influence (as in the Elden Beast). No other god's chosen ruler is called an Elden Lord. We even have other titles for the outer gods' equivalents - like Lord of Blood (Mohg Remembrance) and Lord of Night (Nox Monk Armor).

Even if we were to buy into the idea that the dragons didn't serve the Greater Will before the Age of the Erdtree, that still wouldn't prove or even imply the existence of a dragon god. The dragons are only confirmed to have been serving any god because of a line of text about Elden Lord Placidusax, and it's not stated that he lived before the Age of the Erdtree.

I wouldn’t be so quick to assume the Crucible Tree was a tool of the Greater Will to control its followers either, given the present discrimination over anything Crucible related by the Golden Order.

Snaplock, part of my next arguments will support your claim - as I have made it clear from earlier, the point I am trying to make is there is no certainty whether dragons had a god of their own or not. Do not misunderstand them:

The idea that you are trying to present - that the Greater Will is very hands-off and prefers to let its followers do what they want is something I do not think is the case. Given it was the one who started life in the Lands Between, it was the one who had been spending the longest time trying to establish a dominant influence (I will once again emphasize - prior to the Age of the Erdtree, Greater Will’s followers have yet to win through “countless wars” - that’s stated and not my assumption), its followers had been waging wars for the longest time (not an assumption either - more than a few spells and items consistently refer to periods of conflict both before and during the establishment of the Erdtree), and the fact it has sent the greatest number of heralds (Elden Beast the primary one, then numerous Two Fingers to pick Empyreans of its choosing), it just doesn’t stand to reason the Greater Will is trying to be hands off when all indications suggest otherwise.

You wish to emphasize the Greater Will isn’t its followers and servants, and to an extent, that is true. But there is a limit - the Elden Beast and the Fingers would NOT do what they believe the Greater Will wouldn’t want, only the opposite (they would do what they believe their master would want), there is a level of legitimacy to all their actions. They only really start to become questionable after the Shattering began and the Greater Will is said to have “abandoned the Lands Between” (itself an Ambiguous Situation).

I will agree this much: I believe the Greater Will itself doesn’t value the Golden Order as much as any of its servants. But, what it does value is Order; your statement about it choosing Miquella alone speaks enough that it desires a form of its Order imposed over the Lands Between (this supports your idea that the Greater Will simply switches from one religion to another: Crucible, Farum Azula, Golden Order, and now Unalloyed Gold).

Even though unlike you, I believe Miquella isn’t acting on behalf of the Greater Will, the fact it chose 3 potential successors who would all but certainly replace Marika’s Golden Order (itself a faith on the basis of herself as a one true god) shows more than enough basis the Greater Will isn’t particularly attached to a single faith, just a form of Order in which it can influence the world to its Will. On this part I agree with you.

However, that is exactly my basis for claiming neither the Crucible Tree or Farum Azula were tools of the Greater Will. As stated above, it’s made very clear the Greater Will wants to assume a form of Order over the Lands Between when it is able, to the point its followers have spent countless years and wars trying to establish dominance which would allow it impose Order.

I can hardly believe the dragons were ever servants of the Greater Will for the simple fact they did not leave any legacy or item or spell which ever painted that they had any attempt whatsoever to impose an Order over reality or something similar, when multiple spells and items all point out that followers of Greater Will have been fighting for multiple ages to do just that. This contradiction is my main basis for believing the dragons do not serve the Greater Will.

Regarding the part about pastors of Farum Azula, make no mistake - it mentions they believe Greater Will granted intelligence to them, but by no means does that mean Greater Will is the patron god of Farum Azula. The ancient astrologers and the Carians all know the Moon and the Stars did not create them but they worship it all the same; followers of Frenzied Flame like Hyetta KNOWS the Greater Will created them but did not worship it either. The fact the beastmen of Farum Azula believes Greater Will granted them intelligence does NOT equate to them worshipping Greater Will.

Finally... about Placidusax... check your facts, please?

Dragonlord Remembrance: “The Dragonlord whose seat lies at the heart of the storm beyond time is said to have been Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree. Once his god was fled, the lord continued to await its return.”

My bad on the Placidusax timeline.

You suppose that the Greater Will ordered its followers to go on and establish an Order over the world, and that the fact that the dragons didn't do so is proof that they didn't worship the Greater Will. But that's stated nowhere in the game - the wars to establish the Erdtree's supremacy were undertaken at the behest of Marika. There's no text anywhere in the game saying that the Greater Will ordered her to do it, or that it had any preference one way or the other. I actually checked the game's text dump and the Greater Will comes up very few times in general, and never in text related to these wars. From what I can tell the only things the Greater Will ever did directly, aside from create life and passively give power to adherents, are send the Elden Beast/Ring and banish the Nox.

I haven't found any evidence that the Two Fingers or Elden Beast ordered these wars either. Though even if they did, I don't think that would support the idea that the Greater Will did. It's rather explicit that, even before the Shattering, the Two Fingers received at best hazy messages and had little knowledge of the Greater Will's true intentions. The clearest evidence of this is that the Two Fingers in the Roundtable Hold are of the opinion that the Greater Will has not abandoned the Lands Between despite everyone else thinking so (implying it sees nothing odd about not having heard a single word from the Greater Will in all these years). As evidence it cites the existence of the Tarnished who were created long before the Shattering... by Marika, and given grace back by her.

"But the Greater Will has not abandoned the realm, nor the life that inhabits it. So it is that the Tarnished are guided by grace. Called to act. Brave Tarnished, your Great Rune is a handsome shard of the Elden Ring."

Enia also says that it'd take thousands of years (tens of thousands of moon passes, and if the Lands Between are anything like Earth, 1 orbit is about 1 month; even if a moon pass is only one day, that's still decades) for the Two Fingers to receive any kind of message from the Greater Will, with the implication that she's going by prior experience rather than this being a unique circumstance of the Shattering. How could the Two Fingers possibly know for sure what the Greater Will wants with such a long gap in communication?

"You know what this means. The Erdtree has spurned you. The Fingers remain still. Shaken by this turn of events, they are busy consulting the Greater Will. When they are finished, the Fingers will again offer their guidance. But thousands, if not tens of thousands, of moons must first pass. No matter for me. But you? How will you ever manage the wait..."

I also notice that you keep ignoring the fact that Placidusax is called an Elden Lord and that he used the Elden Ring (both because of his title and because there are depictions of it in Farum Azula). The Elden Ring that's a vassal of the Greater Will, the Elden Ring that sets the laws of the Lands Between, implying that they actually were imposing the Greater Will's order. But when are any other gods' servants called Elden Lord? The Elden Beast's name is a pretty clear confirmation that "Elden" = Greater Will.

The main point is that the game heavily indicates that the dragons' god was the Greater Will (the Elden Lord title seems pretty indisputable) and gives no real evidence for the existence of any unnamed "Dragon Outer God."

The conflicts between followers of Greater Will and that of other gods have predated even Marika's rise as an Empyrean, as in before the Age of the Erdtree. Consider the Gloam-Eyed Queen of Godskin cult.

Though we can't be 100% sure if the Queen and her Godskin are opposed to the Greater Will or not (as another troper named bagga has tried to debate in previously), it doesn't change the fact she was chosen as an Empyrean by the Two Fingers before Marika (Godslayer Greatsword description) and subsequently formed a cult to hunt gods.

Once again, though we aren't completely sure about their alignment (whether or not the Queen and her Godskin hunts for, or against, the Greater Will), the simple fact the Queen was once an Empyrean before Marika and formed a cult for the purpose of god hunt proves that conflicts between followers of Greater Will with followers of other gods did not begin with Marika (regardless of whether or not Gloam-Eyed Queen was working for or against Greater Will).

The point is, it had begun even before Marika's time, before the Age of the Erdtree which she and Godfrey kickstarted (Elden Lord Armor set). So the countless wars were not done at Marika's behest as you say, for it was a thing before she even became a holder for the Elden Ring.

I will acknowledge, it is entirely possible (and historically very likely) for the followers of Greater Will to be the ones who came up with the initiative to start these wars against other gods.

However, I find that unlikely in this case - if at present time when the Two Fingers are reduced in numbers (just 2 known pairs... ones in Roundtable Hold and ones in Cathedral of Manus Celes), the Fingers are still ready to correct any perceived heresy and actions which did not fit their belief of what the Greater Will desires, (as proof, both Fingers are known to employ assassins and some of their Incantations specialize in assassination; not to mention Two Fingers Faithful consist mostly of Tarnished who hunt those who stray from grace),

Then all the more so back then when the Two Fingers are still numerous (since we can find many of their corpses all around the world). If the Fingers did not try to do anything to discourage followers of Greater Will across the ages from warring with other gods (which by all indications they in fact encourage, because the Baleful Shadows fiercely hunt Ranni, champion of Dark Moon) then the implications are the conflicts which have been happening since prior Age of the Erdtree do not contradict what the Fingers believe to be Greater Will's intentions.

I do agree the Fingers might not necessarily represent the Greater Will's intentions, though. Still, it is difficult to believe the Fingers and the rest of Greater Will followers would have the need to, you know, wage war, if the dragons - who literally ruled the Lands Between for an entire prehistoric age - were part of them. It just doesn't make logical sense, especially because the only known history of conflict the ancient Stoneguard dragons had was against Marika's Empire and the Erdtree.

Finally, do not narrow down, but at the same time do not overreach what the word Elden Lord means. It was Marika who decided the First and Second Elden Lords, even if it was likely the Elden Beast who permits the choice. Even the player Tarnished themself are called an Elden Lord in endings in which the Greater Will's influence is potentially reduced or replaced (Blessing of Despair, Age of Order, Age of the Duskborn), as in become an Elden Lord who does not necessarily represent the Greater Will, by beating the crap out of the Elden Beast even. The Dragonlord Placidusax being an Elden Lord during an age we know nothing much about means we might not be able to apply any present time definitions of Elden Lord to him (which might even include the need of a god consort, but I am not here to speculate on that).

You just detailed how wars between the Greater Will's followers can happen before expressing skepticism that Marika's empire and the dragons would fight if they were both aligned with the Greater Will. Them both drawing on the power of the Greater Will doesn't mean they can't feud with one another to establish different orders. A war between Greater Will supporters is in fact half the plot of the game.

You again are conflating the Greater Will and the Golden Order. The Greater Will's influence is not reduced or replaced in any of the Elden Lord endings. Fia just puts the undead into the new order without persecution with no reference to the Greater Will. The Dung Eater shifts everyone from humans to Omens with, again, no reference to the Greater Will. And Goldmask does literally the opposite of what you think he does. His ending is all about removing the vessel's agency and leaving the Greater Will's laws unchanging and perfect. That's why his ending is prompted by him learning Marika's secret and why the Erdtree glows brighter than ever before. Like Miquella he is a Greater Will loyalist opposed to the Golden Order.

Another thing worth noting: Placidusax, unique among dragons, breathes golden flames like the Elden Beast. Probably because he's the Elden Lord, which is again explicitly a title for someone associated with the Greater Will (as opposed to Blood Lord or Night Lord).

You keep saying I conflate Golden Order and Greater Will. However, fact of the matter is Two Fingers (and possibly Elden Beast), only do what they believe to be Greater Will's intentions.

As shown when the Roundtable Two Fingers realize putting Tarnished (or indeed, any candidate) as the new Elden Lord might not be what their master desire, they immediately go silent for thousands of years just to confirm. Ignoring any present crisis, ignoring the world decaying, ignoring the Golden Order in shambles, ignoring that very place burning, even.

The point is, the Greater Will's intent is at the very least the Roundtable Two Fingers' top priority, even if they can go for centuries taking actions based on an assumed interpretation of their master's will. They immediately back down as soon as that assumption seems to be incorrect, after all.

In short? It is fairly unlikely the decisions made in the past by various Two Fingers are as disconnected to their master as you believe. The connection might not be direct, but the Fingers' willingness to do literally nothing at all until they are certain what their master want to do can compensate. It's easy to see the RT Two Fingers has been acting the way it does until Leyndell revelations because they tried to think ahead based on their lord's previous orders — which they have no reason to think is mistaken until Leyndell.

I am not going to argue how to interpret the endings with you. The endings are fairly open-ended, and it's Ambiguous Situation to begin with if the Greater Will truly did abandon the world (and by extension how the Will is involved with the endings). Let's keep the discussion on track.

Back to the point; my argument was never "The dragons definitively had an outer god, distinct from the Greater Will" or proving "the dragons definitively did not serve the Greater Will".

I am trying to point out that at this point in time, the notions of a dragon outer god existing and it being completely made up are both still possible, and in my point of view, we have more clues which can be interpreted as it existing. You have been refuting them, of course, so let's focus on that.

Let's present more clues in favor of the dragon god? The Gravel Stone Seal are explicitly noted to be "thought as an ancient dragon's scale" — as in, it might or might not be actually an ancient dragon's scale, it's a description similar to how the One-Eyed God was believed to be slain by Marika in the One-Eyed Shield's description, but says nothing about whether or not it is actually slain in reality.

There, it mentions "The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold." And it shows — the lightning used by practitioners of the capital's dragon cult such as Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear, Honed Bolt and the like, are all golden. Godwyn's lightning was also described as golden (even before becoming Death Lightning).

It should be noted these golden lightning Incantations didn't exist until the rise of Leyndell's dragon cult (Lightning Strike, Lightning Spear and Honed Bolt spells describe it was formed after Godwyn defeated Fortissax) whereas crimson red lightning predates the cult entirely (Fortissax's Lightning Spear describes how Fortissax's twin lightning stakes were his trademark ever since the War with the Dragons; meaning it existed before the dragon cult was a thing).

Now let's ask ourselves the question: why exactly the dragon cult practitioners, starting with Godwyn, invented golden lightning? The Gravel Stone Seal description tries to push the notion the dragons are supposed to have golden lightning, as this seal believed to be an ancient dragon scale and the lightning incantations channeled using this seal are all gold.

Check again the descriptions of Ancient Dragon Lightning Spear and Lightning Strike. Both are noted to be secret incantations of the Dragon Cult. It's not just flavor either; as far as I can remember there are very few enemies in the entire game which can use Ancient Dragon Lightning (mainly those in Farum Azula and certain individuals like Vyke who gained Lansseax's favor), proving the red lightning incantations aren't contemporarily used by practitioners of the dragon cult, nor even seen much by the people ("Spoken of in legend, red lightning is the weapon wielded by the ancient dragons." — as in, red lightning hasn't been a common sight ever since the War with them).

Why does the distinction exist? Why did the Gravel Stone Seal try to make it seem the ancient dragons had golden lightning whereas in reality they never had it? Why the ancient dragon's red lightning aren't used by Leyndell's practitioners of the dragon cult, and in fact seems to be kept a secret? Naturally, the simple answer is to make the integration of dragon worship in the capital easier to accept by worshippers of the Erdtree, who are particularly obsessed with gold and trees.

All of these also imply one more thing; the red lightning is not derived from Greater Will. After all, golden lightning incantations are never even once used by an actual ancient dragon, it was only around after the dragon cult. The Beastmen in Farum Azula also use red lightning of the ancient dragons, not golden lightning of dragon cult.

If the dragons served the Greater Will in the first place, I think we can conclude the lightning the ancient dragons used would be as golden as Placidusax's breath from the very beginning. All dragons should have it too, since all of them should have been serving the Greater Will. The simple fact all ancient dragons have red lightning and the dragon cult tried to make it seem they had golden lightning when in reality they never had suggests the dragons never served the Greater Will in the first place.

Additionally, even if we assume the red lightning is still from the Greater Will despite the above, consider one more thing. Why only Placidusax has golden fire breath and all the other dragons, be it the lesser modern dragons or the ancient Stoneguards, breathe out normal fire? Didn't all of them derive power from faith of the Greater Will if they serve it (as Dragon Communion spells are all Incantations)?

Most spells and powers derived from the Greater Will so far are always golden (as far as I remember, the only exceptions are the Erdtree Incantation mimicking Maliketh's Black Blade, and Two Fingers Faithful Incantation casting Darkness). The dragons not breathing golden flame in general is already a clue they aren't normally connected to the Elden Ring.

Even if we assume ancient dragons other than Placidusax have their "divinity" dilute like lesser demigod descendants (like Godrick), they should still have the golden aura, as everyone from the Golden Lineage still has it no matter how diluted. Even the Tarnished, mildly implied to be a distant descendant of Godfrey due to their "warrior's blood" being commented by a few characters, still retain the gold. But as we both can agree, not a single dragon in the game have anything golden about them except Fortissax wielding Godwyn's lightning and Placidusax exhaling golden breath.

The Fingers are spending the entire game doing things of their own initiative with no communication with their master. Only a Logic Bomb like "the Erdtree is sealed" sets them off. The obvious implication is that, if they were not given such a direct and obvious shock to the point that a conflict was undeniable, they'd have just continued on ignorant to the Greater Will's intent. And since that sign, despite what the Fingers might think, wasn't even from the Greater Will (the Erdtree is closed by Radagon's seal), that just further demonstrates their ignorance. They're doing what they believe the Greater Will wants, just like other characters who are opposed to them like Morgott and Godrick.

I don't know where you're getting the "item descriptions are in-universe propaganda" bit from. The description is straightforwardly telling you that the Erdtree and ancient dragons can get along because they're both tinged with gold, i.e. the influence of the Greater Will. The older dragon's use of red lightning is almost certainly because a shade of red is associated with the crucible:

Crucible Hornshield: "Greatshield of red-tinged gold carried by Crucible Knights."

Ordovis's Greatsword: "This sword is imbued with an ancient holy essence. Its red tint exemplifies the nature of primordial gold, said to be close in nature to life itself."

Their lightning became more yellow gold later because so did the Golden Order (hence few people now use Crucible incantations), not because they started worshipping a different god. It ties them to the crucible, the primordial form of the Erdtree. Note that the crucible sigil that shows up when casting crucible spells has a red tint to it.

Also note what you don't find on descriptions of dragon incantations: a reference to a god. Or any implication that such a thing exists at all. Say that you ignore obvious signs like the noted similarity between Greater Will adherents and the dragons, the Elden Ring and primordial Erdtree being on engravings in Placidusax's temple, the priests of the temple being creations of the Greater Will, Placidusax breathing gold flames, and the leader of the dragons being an Elden Lord, and conclude that the dragons had nothing to do with the Greater Will. That still wouldn't change that nowhere in the entire game is there a single piece of evidence for a dragon outer god. There's Placidusax's Marika-equivalent (神, not 外なる神) who almost certainly bore the Elden Ring, and that's it.

As for why only Placidusax has golden breath: because he's the Elden Lord. The Elden Lord is more pure in their 'god' than the rest.

Oh, I failed to consider those points — I didn’t think the dragons worshipping the primordial form of Erdtree was the source of the different form of lightning, and more importantly I didn’t think worship of the primordial crucible could be considered worship of the Greater Will (or at least the main religion its servants used to control its followers) because it was its actions which created life from the supposed One Great.

I wouldn’t agree with how you interpret the Two Fingers and their connection with their master, but that’s not the main point of the discussion. Seeing as you are able to refute every point mentioned so far, feel free to remove any mention of an outer god for the dragons. At the very least, you have convinced me.

Seeing as nobody else has chimed in during the several days long break of our discussion, I don’t think they are in position to refute. If someone wants to make changes again, they will have to bring it up in the discussion.

Thank you. I'll go ahead with it.

Wanted to mention I agree with the "dragon god is probably the greater will" tidbit, but I'm still pretty sure Dragonlord is Marika's predecessor rather then just the Elden Lord before Godfrey. I also want to make a case that the Crucible of Life should get its own folder.

But I have a really long shift at work tomorrow and I need to sleep early, so can everyone please wait a day before undoing the edits? if so, thank you.

It's champion is also someone that once tried to fight against it(Mort was famously anti psyker, and Malenia learned techniques meant to symbolize against it)

So I think it's very much possible.

From the Expy page itself, emphasis in original:

Much of the resemblance can be pinned down to "both of these are eldritch entities associated with diseases, and by extension the tropes of disease". So yes, they're both disease-gods, some level of similarity is to be expected. But I'm just not convinced that there's a case for claiming direct inspiration rather than that they were drawing from the same well of ideas.

Note in particular that few, if any of the distinctive twists Nurgle brings to the formula are present in the Scarlet Rot. Papa Nurgle is friendly and jovial; the Scarlet Rot is utterly inscrutable. Nurgle cares for all diseases; the Scarlet Rot is indifferent to anything but its own brand. Nurgle's minions tend towards corpulence; those tainted by the Rot are emaciated. Nurgle likes maggots and corpse flies, while the Rot brings elegant butterflies.

I agree with Killer Clowns, the two have absolutely nothing in common that you couldn't tie to any evil plague god, of which Nurgle was very far from the first. This just seems a case of 40k fans having incredibly small reference pools.

Also on its champion being hard to kill, that's another clear difference between them. Nurgle enhances the durability of his subjects, his faction basically being a Stone Wall. The Rot makes Malenia significantly weaker than she'd normally be because her resistance to it is actively killing her. Note also that, even when she temporarily embraces its power, Rot attacks are the only ones that never heal her, and you can in fact still beat her by inflicting the Rot status effect. She's strong in spite of it, not because of it.

Oh, you originally asked about it here? My apologies for the late response.

1. About "Death" and related deities: Normally, I would agree with you on positing they might be different sources of Death-based powers... but one fact makes me lean really far into them sharing a common origin: Prince of Death's Staff.

The Staff is derived from Godwyn's power, borne from his half of the Cursemark of Death. This Cursemark in turn was a portion of the Rune of Death which Ranni stole from Maliketh's Black Blade. The Rune of Death itself in turn was also called Destined Death (Enia's words), and though she claimed it was plucked out of Golden Order since its creation, every other descriptions claim it once belonged to the Gloam-Eyed Queen before Maliketh defeated her.

In short, Godwyn's power is quite explicitly descended from Destined Death. This much is factual, no ifs or buts.

The staff buffs all Death Sorceries. Both Fia's Mist - which she learned from Godwyn - and Ghostflame Sorceries, which the Death Rite Birds use. Given Fromsoft did not change this even after several patches, and how Gameplay and Story Integration is often in full effect for most of Fromsoft's games, it's all but outright stated that they share a common origin.

The fact the Eclipse Greatshield could ward off Destined Death can be easily explained as one source counteracting itself; it is not without precedent as Radahn learned the gravity powers of the star spawns to block off more falling stars from landing onto the Lands Between. It is, unfortunately, no proof or indication that they are different powers competing.

As for Godskin Incantantions being purely Faith based while Death Sorceries involve Intelligence in addition to Faith, it is important to note Greater Will and Golden Order also have this: most Two Fingers and Erdtree Incantations are purely Faith based while Golden Order Fundamentalism also utilize Intelligence, yet all three are unambigiously derived from Greater Will. In short, Godskin Incantations being styled differently from Death Sorceries do not prove they are different.

2. About Unalloyed Gold: While it is true Miquella's Unalloyed Gold is never even mentioned or found inside Farum Azula, the fact remains that the Dragonlord's chamber is able to channel its power, enough to outright purge the influence of Frenzied Flame from the Tarnished.

While the nature of the connection, and how much they are connected, are impossible to determine due to lack of information, it is undeniable a connection exists.

Combined with the other story breadcrumbs we have about outer gods (most prominently, as far as we know every power which can counteract an outer god is almost always born from an outer god), we can reasonably conclude the unalloyed gold is derived from the god whom the dragons used to serve, and this god is an outer god.

Of course, whether or not the conclusion is 100% certain is impossible to determine. We know almost nothing about the god whom Placidusax waited for; it's one of the reasons why another troper proposed the page for Outer Gods should have been "Divine Beings" so it is less speculative and less spoilery (the existence of Outer Gods in this setting can be considered massive spoilers, after all). But alas, the page has been made and I don't know how to delete a page and create a new one in its place.

Overall, I will acknowledge your doubts about point 2, but if within 30 minutes you can't provide a more convincing argument or a lore detail which suggests Deathbird's outer god being distinct with Destined Death, I will undo your edits in the main page, the secondary characters page, and the enemies and bosses page.

Whoops sorry, just saw this.

Fia's mist isn't learned from the Prince of Death, since its description notes that it was developed not taughte—and considering Godwyn's status it's unlikely he has the faculty to teach anything.

My suggestion that Destined Death and the necromantic power of Godwyn is different is not just that one is incantation and one is sorcery(and the stat requirements), but alos that they're spell sigils have no similairities with each other(with all death sorcery having the halfbrand centipede while the godlsayers have their weird womb thing). Furthermore, the godskins and twlid/necromancy have never have crossover or close contact with each other location-wise.

Remember also that the Two-finger, Fundamentalist, and Erdtree are also 'all incantations' and not split between sorcery, have a uniting aesthetic and damage type(holy), and the fact that the GO has incorporated glintstone sorcery into it's order, there's no form of 'Erdtree' sorcery even suggested in the game.

The idea that the Godskin and T Wli D being disconnected is even further seen by how Black Blade, the incantation which is the closest thing you can get to actually using Destined Death straight from the source, is pure Faith. If Gameplay and Story Integration is taken into account... why do neither ghostflame sorcery and deathblight inflict any form of life burn Do T? All three even do different damage(Fire, magic, and holy respectively)!

I'd also argue that 'unalloyed gold' being created from the Dragons to be a very, very hard reach. Radagon's ring of light specifically states that unalloyed gold was created by Miquella because GO fundamentalism couldn't cure his sister and also the fact that unalloyed gold needle was made to ward off outer gods—and you're saying that it also comes from an outer god despite that there's no unalloyed gold in Farum Azula?

1. Fia's Mist wasn't taught, she developed it from Godwyn's power. This isn't directly stated, but heavily implied because she took the hallowbrand which was one-half of the Cursemark of Death (which D stole, whom Fia murdered to take back).

I understand what you mean by Godwyn's necromantic powers being different due to different manifestations and effects, but it still does not change Godwyn is literally infested by a portion of Destined Death. This means his power is almost certainly the same, just manifested differently (most likely due to being buried under the Erdtree's roots). To assume Godwyn's power and Destined Death come from 2 distinct origins when one is literally corrupted by the other is basically contradicting what is presented to us in favor of headcanon, which is a no-no.

Spell sigils being different to each other is, unfortunately, not concrete evidence they are distinct either. For example, Gravity Sorcery has a distinct symbol from the Glintstones Sorcery, but it is still explicitly considered glintstone sorcery lorewise (Rock Sling description: "One of the glintstone sorceries that manipulates gravitational forces."). Note, this is despite the fact they are considered different schools of Glintstone Sorceries in-universe and in-gameplay. In other words, sigils being different don't necessarily mean they are always from different origins.

2. I will say again - we might not find any Unalloyed Gold in Farum Azula, but the Needle made out of it could only be used there. This means a connection is certain and factual, not speculative. What is speculative is the nature of said connection.

Miquella did NOT create Unalloyed Gold out of nothingness either. He crafted it (Unalloyed Gold Needle: "An intricately crafted needle of unalloyed gold, snapped in half." — as well as Miquella's Needle: "One of the unalloyed gold needles that Miquella crafted to ward away the meddling of outer gods."), using a material called unalloyed gold (whose origins, unfortunately, are not known to us for now). It is this material which has undeniable connection with Farum Azula.

We can speculate more than this, but that is not desirable as we are trying to keep speculations to the minimum; the facts we do have are currently painting the material used to unalloyed gold needles is connected to Farum Azula, specifically the Dragonlord's chamber.

Also, it's not a stretch to say the unalloyed gold originates from the dragons. The Ancient Dragon Smithing Stones, be it the Somber or the regular versions, are almost abundant in Consecrated Snowfield (in fact, even more so than in Farum Azula); they are often placed in chests or guarded locations too, meaning the placement there is deliberate.

True, we can not say this confirms "Unalloyed Gold must have been made using the Ancient Dragon Stones" but it does suggest it. And to say it's a hard reach is far from an accurate statement.

New evidence has been shown that the Ro D 'was' part of the Elden Ring to begin with, the 'super-ring' in Farum Azula shows it. SO it's not that the surprise was that the Destined Death was always disconnected from the Elden Ring but that the Elden Ring didn't always looked like the one on the cover art.

https://twitter.com/xIngenue/status/1528633686073102337/photo/1

This also helps Farum Azula be more thematically coherent in game. The enemies there are the Beastmen, Wormfaces, Dragons, Banished Knights, Sentinel Knights, and Dragon Sentinels and it's bosses are Maliketh, Godskin Duo, and Placidusax. A bit of an ecletic bunch, but almost everyone there could tie into the theme of being abandoned by the Greater Will(or the GO) and/or those who are close to it.

The Dragon God being the Greater Will is also heavily implied with all the 'super-ring' that's in Farum Azula, the character page about it saying that it could harm the Erdtree is also something that I've never seen being told in either item description or dialogue? What is told is that Gransax' assault was the only time that Leyndell's walls were ever breached—nonetheless, that's also not enough proof considering that dragon weapons also deal extra damage to dragon so having an 'anti-type' is in the dragon's wheelhouse.

Beastmen also serve the dragons, and Maliketh is also a high-ranking clergyman(beast) if his cinquedea has anything to say about it which further connects the idea that the god Placidusax serves(or the Outer God that his god was a vassal of) was the Greater Will. Also you know, golden breath that deals holy damage?

It's also telling that the Placidusax is found in a similar pose as a Two Finger and that's he's also a Rebis(His two heads are tagged male and female respectively), like Marika is.

(Sorry for the late reply, exams were taking place)

I'm very skeptical of that evidence, for the simple facts that

A) Destined Death is often referred to as a conscious, separate entity from the Elden Ring, such as the Godskins being referred to serving Destined Death (and by extension the GEQ)

B) The confirmed existance of an Outer God of death thanks to the Deathbirds, which Occam's Razor implies this IS Destined Death itself.

C) "The Rune of Death was plucked from the Golden Order" is not an accurate translation at all compared to the Japanese version. The Japanese version more or less state that the Golden Order sealed away the Rune of Death.

As for the Greater Will being the Dragon's god, this might make sense at first...untill you realize that, canonically, the Greater Will established itself with the Erdtree through usurpation of the Primordial crucible and that brought an end to the rule of Dragons. And even if the chronology wasn't strangely fucked, the War against the Dragons would make very little sense, as it would be worshippers of the Greater Will fighting against worshippers of the Greater Will, which would make...very little sense.

The existance of the Super Elden Ring (at least in iconography) and the Dragonlord being specifically called an Elden Lord rather than God or simply...well, Dragonlord, implies some fuckery is afoot, but I seriously doubt the Greater Will and the God of the Dragons are the same entity.

It's also extremely important to note that the "Super Ring" often theorized by many fans definitively have existed, but in no way, shape, or form, it could be confirmed to belong to Greater Will alone, nor the fact the super ring was the original form of Elden Ring. These two are speculations without hard evidence, bordering on fanfic.

Remember the Greater Will has had history of establishing alliances with outer gods (Dark Moon is an explicit example of this) and then backstabbing them (use a pair of Two Fingers to force Ranni be an Empyrean under its guidance). It is possible this was what happened in the past between the Greater Will against Destined Death and the god of the dragons.

If put into points;

- The fact you can find the Rune of Death in the "super ring" in no way whatsoever confirms Rune of Death used to belong to the Greater Will. It just means "Oh, it was a part of the Elden Ring at some point, long long ago". We don't know if it has always been part of Elden Ring or if it was an external addition; who is to say the super ring was even the Elden Ring's original form? We know for a fact the Elden Ring can be added new component Great Runes which didn't originally belong to it (case in point: Dung Eater's Rune of Fell Curse), so why assume this was the "original" Elden Ring?

- We do know the Rune of Death was split apart from the super ring, but we don't know when. However, we do know the Rune of Death was definitely unwanted by the Greater Will during Gloam-Eyed Queen's age, as the Queen and her Godskin were quite explicitly hunting for Erdtree champions (the Godskin Incantation Noble Presence is explicitly a trophy of the god hunt, said to be "once a sign to the wrath of gods" — and very similar to Erdtree Incantation Wrath of Gold, said to be the sign of Erdtree's wrath).

In short, as Makir has stated, we simply have far more evidence in the favor of Destined Death being a manifestation of its own outer god, not the Greater Will. Less so with the god of the dragons, but there are still more clues pointing that way rather than otherwise.

One can serve something that isn't alive(or capable of thinking), principles, systems. Serving indiscriminate death isn't so farfetched, and if it's connected to the Elden Ring then it granting power is also very much in the realms of possibility.

I'm still not convinced that the Twinbird and Destined Death are one and the same considering that their manifestation are so wildly different and the Godskin, the most clearly said to have been sourced from it, don't even have mechanical commonality with either death sorcery and deathblight. Sure the greater will also has a bunch of different manifestation of power but they all have things that they share with each other(Gold, All Incantations) not to mention that the Godskin also have ties with the Crucible according to the Noble's set description

Furthermoew, Black Blade, the most direct we can get to straight up using the power of Destined Death, is an Erdtree Incantation.

Worshippers of a god warring with each other isn't so farfetched you know? That's like a reoccuring thing even in our world, not to mention that the GO's christianity connection is far more than just churches, cathedrals, and crucifixion aesthetics. Also dragon-communion, dragon weapons having anti-dragon properties... dragons have a boatload of 'we are good at killing each other'

Not to mention that they also ended the war with friendship too and are so syncretized that the place that they were assaulting now uses lightning to defend itself.

Hell we have the Raya-Lucaria civil war and the Shattering itself to see that. Godric, Morgott, and possibly Radahn are all fighting against each other even if they have some form of loyalto the Golden Order.

It's also neatly explainable as the Dragons trying to reclaim their place as the Greater Will's vassal race by taking it away from Marika's empire and back to them. Think Destiny's Traveller.

I know you're referring to the theory that the Stormlord is Placidusax but there's enough evidence that refers to the Stormhawk King. The Greater Will has also been here long before the Age of the Erdtree considering that the Eternal cities was one of the few times that the Greater Will itself is specifically said to do something.

Occam's Razor works but when there are a lot of fuckery going on and other evidences that points away from it I think just only using it is a foolish endeavour.

But overall my main issue with this trope pages is that the more murkier aspects of the work have a tendency to be said with a lot of assuredness using theories that even the wider community don't subscribe. The main page says that the Regression and Causalty laws are a lie when we can definitely see that even non-GW associated factions have some form of it applying to them(Rykard's having a bunch of souls mixed together, the abundance of astral projection going on, etc, etc).

The other troper above said that putting too much speculation is a no-no but the trope pages sure as hell have a lot more conjecture and wild theories almost comparable to Reddit.

If you keep intending on ignoring the fact Godwyn was literally cursed by a piece of the Rune of Death, or Destined Death, then I don't know what else to say, to be honest.

Godwyn got cursed by the Black Knives. Which contained fragments of the Rune of Death stolen from Maliketh's Black Blade. Which was in turn taken from defeating Gloam-Eyed Queen. This means Godwyn as Prince of Death, as well as Those Who Live in Death, are all the same source. All of these, are facts.

Then Prince of Death's Staff. It buffs all Sorceries with Death powers. It originated from Godwyn (hence the name), it came from the curse of Death within him, which came from the above, Destined Death.

Said Staff can buff Deathbird's Ghostflame Sorceries. This is not unintended by Fromsoft, and it's not fixed after several patches. This likely means Gameplay and Story Integration is in effect.

Also, the Godskin Incantations and Ghostflame Sorceries might be different in how they work, but they do have several similarities. All spells from both schools require Faith (despite the latter being Sorcery, every Death Sorcert spells require Faith), unlike Golden Order Fundamentalism which, despite being Incantations, have some spells which purely require Intelligence. This suggests Death Sorcery isn't purely Sorcery, the Incantation aspect of it cannot be denied (hence why it is called heretical).

TLDR: Bagga, you can bring up as many other clues as you want, but as long as you cannot disprove the fact Destined Death is the source of Godwyn's Prince of Death powers, and it can explicitly strengthen all Death Sorceries, including the Deathbird's Ghostflames, we have no choice but to go with the most likely conclusion at the moment.

Also, about the Dragons, I will once again keep my silence on the matter. Not enough evidence to conclusively say if the Dragons used to belong to the Greater Will or not, but I will say this much: Unalloyed Gold is our main clue.

The Unalloyed Gold has connection with the Dragonlord's chamber in Farum Azula. And the Unalloyed Gold is not wanted by the Greater Will and Golden Order (Morgott outright calls Miquella a traitor for wanting the Unalloyed Gold to replace Golden Order). So, for the moment, we have more reason to believe whatever the Dragons used to worship, it was connected to Unalloyed Gold, which the Greater Will is in opposition of. Logically, it cannot be the Greater Will.

I relent in that Prince of Death and the Twinbird have some form of connection with each other. But I'd like to remind you that we can also light the Giant's Forge with Frenzied Flame so there's more reason that there's some form of bleedthrough with things that have similar symbolism and thematics, Godwyn's Death corruption being resonant to the Twinbird instead of coming from it is possible,

We also know that Runes can be changed by it's bearer in some way shape or form and considering that Godwyn was buried under the Erdtree, suffering soul-death, and the rune of death being spread in him is also only a shard of a shard of it—something has gone very wrong to the point that Godwyn is now a mutated mer-corpse after all.

Gameplayand Story Integration would also give clues that that blackflame and ghostflame are wildly different since they: A. Are of different schools and type of spell B. Godskins don't cause frost or deathblight C. T Wli D don't cause percentage Do T either(Ghostflame even does magic damage!)

If the Godskins were using somekind of Int/Fai incantation, sure I'd be more willing to abscond to that theory. But there isn't and Godskins aren't even near places where deathbirds or TW Li D are.

Yes but here's my clues that point to the Dragonlord having some form of ties to the Greater E Lden Ring: the super ring in Farum Azule, Maliketh being a high-ranked beast clergy, Placidusax being a rebis and in a similar pose as the Two Fingers, and finally Placidusax's Ruin dealing holy damage and not being a Dragon Communion spells.

Morgott calling Miquella a traitor refers to every single other demigod as a whole, Godrick still clings to the same Golden Lineage that Morgott has and he's a traitor too! Hell Miquella being thematically the saviour of those who were abandoned by the Golden Order makes it even more likely that Placidusax served the Greater Will once.

You did quote me, right? We should try to keep speculations to the minimum? Please take a look at your own messages, please.

"We can also light the Giant's Forge with Frenzied Flame so there's more reason that there's some form of bleedthrough with things that have similar symbolism and thematics"... um, hello? Are you serious?

Anyone properly trained can light the Fire in the Forge of the Giants. Finger Maidens in particular were taught to burn themselves in the Forge to open a path to the Erdtree for their respective Tarnished (Vyke's Finger Maiden for example, as it's speculated Vyke turned to the Three Fingers so she didn't have to sacrifice herself).

Becoming the Lord of Chaos just means a Tarnished can light up the flame, burn, and still survive because the Frenzied Flame keeps them alive (like how it keeps Shabriri alive). It has regrettably little to do with Frenzied Flame and the Fell God's Flames having "similar thematics".

Bleedthrough? Resonance between different outer gods? Where are these details coming from? How many headcanons and speculations are you going to pile up until you are satisfied, Bagga?

I won't claim the current picture which this page is currently painting are definitely facts (hell, the trope Ambiguous Situation is used over and over in the page to emphasize they are just speculations, just the most reasonable ones we can have right now), but I can say it is less speculative than the headcanons you are spouting.

Also, the Deathbirds and the Godskin worshipping the same force of death isn't different than what you are saying about the Dragons worshipping the Greater Will despite literally wielding Incantations which deal no Holy damage whatsoever, purely Lightning damage.

Per your own logic, different adherents of the same outer god can harness significantly different powers from their outer gods, as you are claiming the Dragons who make absolutely zero use of Erdtree or Golden Order Incantations whatsoever used to worship the Greater Will.

Then why are you so insistent about Deathbirds and Godskin worshipping a different force then, despite Ghostflame and Blackflame having more similarities with each other than Golden Order Incantation and Ancient Dragon Incantations? Can't you see you are contradicting yourself?

"Miquella being thematically the saviour of those who were abandoned by the Golden Order makes it even more likely that Placidusax served the Greater Will once." How do you come to this conclusion even? Miquella was merely using Unalloyed Gold which had unclear but definite connections to the Dragonlord.

Doesn't necessarily mean Miquella is in any way affiliated with the Dragonlord. They have no real lore connection other than the fact lots of Placidusax's scales can be found in Consecrated Snowfield. More headcanon? Again?

Miquella's Unalloyed Gold is also explicitly against Golden Order, too; it was said it could replace the Order, and we know how Greater Will and its servants react to anything which could threaten it; extreme prejudice. Just ask Marika for trying to Shattter the Elden Ring. Godwyn is an exception for trying to integrate the Dragons into Golden Order, but ultimately the Dragons fell victim to the Dragon Communion practice, making them victims under the Golden Order.

I am afraid I can't even take you seriously at this point, Bagga. If, by your next message, you can't make points without less speculation than the current one we are using in this page, then forget having this discussion.

Finger Maiden were taught to burn themselves in it but considering that the Erdtree hasn't been burned yet that all those maidens lit on fire weren't able to do it, and only Melina and the Lord of Frenzy can do it.

Melina plays the role of a Finger Maiden, but as she succintly says herself—isn't one.

I don't see us becoming a corpse-hopping spirit who takes over bodies of the blind and despaired so It's quite obvious that the Frenzied Flame isn't the one resurrecting us in that instance and it's the Tarnished's own immortality that's doing the work of bringing us back to life. And this can't be counted on gameplay dissonance since what happens is a story beat.

Because Blackflame comes from a time before the Golden Order? Like it's specifically said that the GO's creation because the Rune of Death was plucked? Black Blade is an Erdtree Incantation! that's quite an example of Gameplay And S Tory Integration that the closest that we can get to actually using Destined Death is with an Erdtree Incantation.

And remember that Erdtree incantation includes Aspects of the Crucible too—Draconic shapeshifting

You keep using the Needle as a singular proof of the Dragon God, and I gave you such things as: Placidusax' golden breath(that deals holy damage), the Super rings all over Farum Azule, and the beastmen—guardians of the cathedral/catacomb/city of the Eternal Dragons—having one of it's high ranking members(or maybe it's highest in the 1st place) be the shadow of Marika and helped with the GO's creation.

Ancient Dragons, like the ones that warred with Leyndell, aren't the dragons that Dragon Communion hunts who instead targets their fallen, lesser kin. None of their spells uses Ancient Dragon parts or from the breath of an Ancient Dragon, in fact, Ancient Dragins don't drop dragon hearts in the 1st place either.

So no, they're not victims of the Golden Order. Especially since the inciting incident of the Dragon War was Gransax assaulting Leyndell

Yeah, you have failed. Bagga, Vyke's Finger Maiden didn't succeed in even reaching the Forge of the Giants; the implication is she was already dead where she was found in the area of Festering Fingerprint Vyke's Invasion. The fact the Erdtree hasn't been lit yet is explicitly because before US, the player Tarnished, no Tarnished has even come close to succeeding except for Vyke, and even HE failed. Assumptions? Again?

I am done with this, I am not going to bother explaining to you why the rest of your statements are speculative. I am reporting you and I will undo your edits.

I don't follow Elden Ring and this discussion was hard to follow but it doesn't seem like anyone has crossed the line of edit warring yet.

I'll send this as a reminder though: Please do not touch the now commented out Expy until there is enough consensus to do anything with it. Also, please do not add Speculative Troping into articles. We can only trope what can be canonically observed within the work itself.

Corhyn specifically said that the Golden Order is based on the idea that Marika is a god.

'''The Golden Order is founded on the principle that Marika is the one true god. However... The name of Marika's second husband, King Consort Radagon, also appeared... Who exactly was Radagon? The master is stumped. His finger has remained still, ever since Radagon's name was discovered. Curse my mediocre mind.'''

So to Corhyn, worshipping Marika is the same as following the Golden Order, while Goldmask is much more radical in his interpretation.(Corhyn is also repeatedly characterized as an overly inflexible rube who doesn;t even consider literal Erdtree prayerbooks to 'come from the Erdtree')

Sorry I couldn't get back sooner, job-stuff.

First off, sorry for phrasing the revision in a way that implied Goldmask's fix was targeted at all Outer Gods. Looking back, I think the Mending Rune of Perfect Order was meant to create a pre-shattering version of the Golden Order, just one that the Greater Will couldn't interfere with.

My biggest points of evidence for this are Corhyn's horror at what Goldmask was planning and the fact Goldmask is a practitioner of Golden Order Fundamentalism.

Corhyn is absolutely, blindly loyal to the Golden Order, far more to it then he is even to Marika. If Goldmask's goal was to strip Marika of all agency and give the Greater Will absolute control over the Lands Between, I think he would be all for it.

Secondly, Golden Order Fundamentalism is implied to differ from other Incantation schools powered by the Greater Will in that it's based around understanding the physical make-up of the Order and bending it to one's will rather then blindly worshipping it, his Mending Rune (which I took to be forcing a modification on the Golden Order that the Will doesn't want) is a sort of evolution of the concept. On top of that, the fact he does the last of the meditating to summon the Rune at the Mountaintops of the Giants, the site of one of the Golden Order's worst atrocities that's supposed to be forbidden, seems to imply he's willing to break the Order's rules for the sake of making his vision a reality.