Discussion Characters / EldenRingDemigods

And I say your lying because it's clear from your edit history you want to attack a certain character and elevate another.

Youtuber vs youtuber. Gaming publications are siding with the other one; he's more creditable.

It's time to take a good long look at yourself and realize you should stop page vandalizing because your in-love with a video game character.

https://www.pcgamer.com/english-translations-of-elden-ring-boss-music-uncover-grim-fascinating-lore/

Something being reported doesn't suddenly make it true. The lyrics are all fanmade. One is just getting more traction because he has more views.

EDIT: here◊ the creator literally says it's fan made.

It's not fanmade; sorry no cigar buddy.

You're not actually offering any evidence of this. Teritus specifies the backroom process and even Olmos (the guy who "translated" it) admits he doesn't have any special information and is just putting in his interpretation after listening to the songs a bunch, while also admitting they're hard to "decode" and might be incorrect.

No he's saying his translation may be a little rough because Latin is hard to translate, but the core meaning is the same thing.

"Best effort attempt to translate the Latin lyrics for this track. Not guaranteed to be 100% correct, but I am convinced this is very close, as the lyrics fit very nicely with the lore:"

"his translation may be a little rough because Latin is hard to translate"

Except no, that's not he says. In the description for the Radahn video: "This one was was unexpectedly difficult to translate. Many of the vocals are overpowered by the instruments. "

He's admitting that the sounds are not matching up. He says that's because the lyrics are drowned out by the orchestra, which is true. But it's also underlining the simple issue that there were never legible lyrics in the first place. He's taking nonsensical sounds and trying to make lyrics from them, which is fine, but it's fan made content regardless. No more or less valid than this lyric video which, unsurprisingly, get completely different ones. For example, Olmos in the first 17 seconds gets "mutou deutiat adventum", while Ilas gets "fortum divos."

I would advise anyone to actually listen to the supposed lyrics. They very clearly sound nothing like what is actually being sung and in some cases lyrics are just plastered over no legible syllables at all.

EDIT: also the guy in question does not speak Latin,◊ he's using a machine translator and general familiarity with a related language (Spanish). So that's a thing.

It's in the lyrics and the song. Sorry, just because you don't want it to the base dosen't make it so.

FYI, this issue is being taken to the ATT page so this doesn't escalate into a full on edit war. Please be mindful of your attitude and how you proceed with further edits.

So Lady Belial has been bounced as a ban-evading edit warrer. However I've seen at least one other editor cite Daniel Olmos's videos for lyrics. Thus I'll let this discussion stand for a bit before reverting the page, just in case anyone else has anything to say. But after it has been established that A. the lyrics are fan made, B. other fan made lyrics significantly differ from Olmos's, C. Olmos himself admits he has a hard time making out anything legible, D. Antonius Teritus, someone with insider information, says most of the songs have meaningless syllables instead of real lyrics so there's nothing to translate in the first place, and E. Olmos doesn't even speak Latin, I really don't see any justification for keeping tropes based on linking Olmos's videos.

I feel like if Fromsoft themselves haven’t explicitly said anything about the lyrics being important or not, then we should just steer clear of the subject entirely.

Lyrics are a controversial issue in From Soft games. I don’t even want to remember the headache which came with the editing wars involving Bloodborne music since most of the soundtrack had Ominous Latin Chanting and almost none of them ever had their official lyrics released by From Soft. In the end, for the previous games, we generally choose not to include details from supposedly “deciphered lyrics” in any way.

And from From Soft and Miyazaki’s history, neither of whom even once told players to pay attention to the soundtracks of bosses for lore reasons even in interviews (they usually encourage us to buy artbooks instead), I suggest we do not include information from supposedly deciphered lyrics of the soundtrack until From Soft decide to break their usual habit and release official lyrics or if Miyazaki our Trolling Creator alludes that Elden Ring is different from their previous games and the music is now relevant to the lore.

I would say that there shouldn't be any added even if he does say something like that, honestly. Because even if there were lyrics (and let's be clear, by insider info, there absolutely aren't except for a small handful of songs) they'd still be drowned out by the music and you'd still have multiple fan "translations" hearing entirely different things.

Nuked Lady Belial's discussion thread as it's a) redundant with this thread, and b) is in bad faith. Plus, the responses aren't that helpful.

Late response, I was asleep.

For the first reason, you said it quite well yourself: we know very little about Radagon pre-Shattering. Even the 3 points you mentioned are also speculative: for A, the illusion Ranni recreates for Rennala is almost 100% certain to be weaker than the real deal (given all other projections, such as Margit and Mohg’s, are both significantly weaker than their projectors). For B, Radagon is compared inadequately with Godfrey in terms of achievements; at no point did anybody or any item description imply Radagon is weaker than Godfrey in combat; though in this case you can certainly argue he is the less capable combatant judging from results of their campaigns, there is no way to gauge Radagon’s power after he learned Sorcery with Rennala and then invented Golden Order Fundamentalism, almost certainly stronger than he was before that point. As for C, the fact Ranni didn’t consider him one of “the mightiest to remain” is precisely because he was missing, so Ranni never makes any reference for Radagon’s power before, during, or after the Shattering (neither does anyone, to be honest).

Second, a general rule of thumb in From Soft games is that the player is NEVER a master of any school of magic, Intelligence or Faith-based alike. They literally have only been learning spells for about a few days to a few months (depending on how long their journey spanning the entire game is) in-universe, and have only been considered “practitioners”, not “archmages” no matter how strong the spells they learn.

In contrast, many enemies in From Soft are explicitly masters of their spellcraft, and Elden Ring is not an exception to this. For example, Crucible Knights have certain Crucible Incantations the player can never learn, implicitly because the Tarnished is far from a master of this school of magic while the Crucible Knights have been practicing it since... the era of Godfrey. The vast gap in experience is never highlighted, but it exists.

Where I am going with this? Do NOT subject the enemies and bosses to PLAYER LIMITATIONS, be it in gameplay or lore, especially in terms of magical prowess. What the Tarnished can do with the Erdtree and Fundamentalist Incantations almost certainly do not reflect what Radagon can do with them; for example, the illusory double of Rennala can seamlessly summon multiple spirits with raw Sorcery, whereas the Tarnished needs a specific spirit calling bell AND their spirit ashes just to summon theirs. Going further, even if the Tarnished proves able to learn gravity spells Radahn cannot pull off (such as Astel’s meteor summoning from the void), the difference between masters and mere practitioners is once again apparent by how the Tarnished can never hope to match the power and area of effect Radahn and Astel can cast their magics with.

I am sure you get the point already, but in short Radagon not being able to use what he was known to specialize in - Golden Order Fundamentalism and possibly Erdtree Incantations as well, given before Liurnian wars he was known as “champion of a tribe worshipping the Erdtree” - while having his moveset replaced by “more powerful abilities which make them redundant” is the wrong thought process to make. Instead, it goes like this; he is overflowing with power to the point everything he does is tinged with holy energy, how MUCH stronger he can get if he actually uses them intelligently with the fighting style he is known for (using a BFS and wielding magic like an archmage), using incantations which are NOT subject to the Tarnished’s limitations even before the Elden Ring buff?

Finally, what’s even more important for the Worf Had the Flu trope, as Uncertain Doom and other tropes point out, this might not even BE Radagon anymore, but Elden Beast puppeteering him. In short it is possible this is not so much “a nerfed, broken Radagon being empowered by the Elden Ring” as much as it is “a dead body being used by the Elden Ring as a vessel”, which logically would be weaker than if Radagon is alive and completely enjoys the full power boost of the Elden Ring. No matter which way you slice it, the trope applies, albeit differently depending on how we choose to interpret the details (is the broken Radagon nerfed than what he should be, or actually dead?)

It's not like the player's the only one who uses Golden Order incantations. A lot of NPCs, enemies, and bosses do as well, most notably the Cleanrot Knights. Some of them are "better" but they all share similar limitations that Radagon's move set never displays.

You seem to be making the assumption that Radagon's normal fighting style would be "better" and more "intelligent" than his current one. I don't see anything to support that? We never even see him fight outside of his boss battle and his current move set is quite efficient on its own. He doesn't use, for example, Triple Rings of Light, but why are we assuming that's because he can't instead of just that it'd be worse than the attacks he already uses? Like that very effortless "wave my hand and make five holy bolts appear that then explode" attack? We do know that he's retained some knowledge as Gold Breaker is said to be his signature move, and he still uses that one, and he seems to be using something like Order's Blade given the perpetual enchantment on his hammer. And true to form, while it's much more powerful than the version we can use, Gold Breaker still acts in a similar way when the player uses it.

Radagon still seems to be alive, given that he groans and reaches into the air when he dies and that he has a separate health bar than the Elden Beast, who was clearly puppeteering him for a reason. Ring Radagon [intact] > Ring Radagon [cracked] > regular Radagon would indeed constitute a "had the flu" moment in one context... but not for Radagon. He'd still be more powerful than ever. The one that trope applied to would be the Beast, who already has his own entry with his well-established nerfs.

I'd support removing the entry because there's no comparison to "normal" Radagon, and what little evidence we have if anything points to boss Radagon being significantly more powerful than he was before.

Hum... I suppose there is a dissonance in our perspectives? Let me clarify it then.

"Normal Radagon" is not static. It changes depending on the point in time we are talking about:

- During the Liurnian wars, before Radagon learned Sorcery and invented Golden Order Fundamentalism, is basically the "weakest" normal state he had.

- After marrying Rennala he studied Sorcery in the hopes of "completing himself" — this was a "new" normal.

- After returning to the Golden Order as the Second Elden Lord, he logically received the same empowerment as Godfrey from the Elden Ring, becoming a demigod (assuming he isn't considered a god already from being Marika's half). This was also a new normal.

- Finally, either before or just as Marika tried to Shatter the Ring, Radagon fused with Marika — meaning if he wasn't a god before, he definitely became a god at this point, adding Marika's largely unknown prowess to his. This was his latest "normal".

In comparison to that? Boss Radagon, be it alive or not, is definitely weakened since the Elden Ring is Shattered and the Erdtree is burning all over. How do you say Radagon is "more powerful than ever" if we consider his previous "normal state" is literally him and Marika plus the Elden Ring intact?

It's also hard for me to see Radagon not using Law of Regression as anything else but him being nerfed, given it's one of the few things which can cancel out Black Flame, one of his only weaknesses.

That having been said, I can see how the current descriptions don’t really reflect the points I tried to posit. If you don’t object, I will edit it to match, later.

Current description seems good.

I'm going to have to disagree on Radagon. The current worf description feels (to me) rather incoherent, it feels like it could use a tune-up .

Plus, not 100% on the idea his magic is powered up because he's infused the Elden Ring. From what explanations of the lore I've seen Radagon and Marika were always the same being, and the Two Fingers state that Marika (and Radagon by extension) has served as the Ring's vessel since the Golden Order began.

Though if anyone's found something in the lore that implies Radagon didn't have access to the Ring's power until Marika shattered it, I'm fine with backing off.

No, one of the game's biggest Riddle for the Ages is the fact whether Radagon has always been originally part of Marika or if he was originally his own being. Personally speaking I believe he was originally part of Marika (hence his attempts to learn sorceries and Golden Order Fundamentalism to "complete himself") but many people can bring up arguments to the contrary (such as the fact Marika told him to his face that he has yet to become a god, itself a statement open to interpretation).

Also, it is extremely unlikely Radagon had a connection with / was empowered by the Elden Ring before he was recalled to become 2nd Elden Lord. Remember that his wife was the most powerful sorceress at the time and he lived in an academy full of sorcerers, many of whom are archmages, including his own children.

Where I am going with this? If Radagon had any sign of being empowered by the Elden Ring at that point in time, there must be a connection which would be detected (much like how literally anyone can tell the Tarnished is guided by Erdtree's Grace), yet no such a thing is ever mentioned regarding Radagon's time in Liurnia.

It is also emphasized over and over again almost nobody knows why Radagon, "a mere champion", could be crowned as Lord. If his connection to Elden Ring and Marika was ever found out, that would not be considered a mystery in the first place. In short, it is almost fanfiction to claim Radagon was empowered by Elden Ring prior to him becoming 2nd Elden Lord.

"Though if anyone's found something in the lore that implies Radagon didn't have access to the Ring's power until Marika shattered it, I'm fine with backing off."

There's a difference between being empowered by the Ring while it stays in the tree, sustaining the world, and having it directly inside of your body. He definitely didn't have that before, even as an Elden Lord, as we see in the trailer. The Ring was a separate physical object.

The above mentioned dialogue with Marika also makes it very clear that he didn't have access to her godly power even at the moment of the shattering.

No offence, but I feel like saying saying anything about the lore being "almost fanfiction" is really the wrong mindset for this sort of story, didn't Miyazaki state he likes to keep things open-ended?

But this is getting off-topic. The main thing I want to make clear is that the current description just comes off as really incoherent compared to the last version.

Can't the stuff about whether the Ring was always housed in Radagon/Marika's body rather then being a physical object on its own be moved to a different trope?

Did you literally just ignore what I typed? There is a difference between “open ended” and “literally contradicts detail presented in the game”.

Even if it was true the Elden Ring was always housed in Radagon/Marika’s body, Radagon definitely didn’t have it during his time in Liurnia. At the time Radagon and Marika were SEPARATE; Radagon was in Liurnia and Marika still with Godfrey as they finish up the last of the Empire’s Ancient Wars (against the Giants and then conquering Stormveil). Marika is likely the one with Elden Ring at the time, not Radagon, as Godfrey was the Elden Lord at the time.

And again, if Radagon WAS the one with Elden Ring at the time, Rennala and her children would KNOW (much like how anybody can tell when someone is Tarnished - the Golden Essence of Grace originating from the Erdtree and Elden Ring is not something that can be HIDDEN), and as I stated, they didn’t (because if they do, then nobody will be wondering “why did a mere champion like Radagon become Queen Marika’s consort?” but fact of the matter, very few people know Radagon was part of or IS Marika).

Remember, being open-ended and outright making details up is different. The former is Fromsoft staple. The latter is for fans who selfishly want to insert their own headcanon. There is a difference, and believing Radagon had the Elden Ring or was directly powered by the Elden Ring during his time in Liurnia is the latter, as it simply contradicts some of the established lore, even if the possibility exists.

The reason why I said it is extremely unlikely is because there is indeed a very tiny possibility Radagon somehow managed to hide the fact he carried the Elden Ring from his wife and the archmages of Lucaria. But the chance of that is astronomically low, as not only there is no known means in lore which can hide guidance of Grace (much less the Elden Ring itself), and it simply makes far more logical sense that Marika was the one with it, at the time, since she and Godfrey were still fighting in wars.

What part of “Radagon is currently not as powerful as he could have been if Elden Ring was intact” comes as incoherent? Because if you are the only one with an issue with this, then I have to consider you might be the problem, not the description.

“Radagon is currently not as powerful as he could have been if Elden Ring was intact” comes as incoherent?"

I'd say the article is trying to address too many things (Whether or not the Elden Beast is possessing him, whether or not he and Marika were always fused) at once. That Radagon himself, separate from the Ring, is suggested to be weaker then he was before the Shattering should be the main focus in the example.

Also, does this discussion feel a bit unnecessarily hostile to you as well? I'm sorry if I said anything rude, I just want the article to be as smooth to read as it can be.

Edit: Actually, I could send the article over to that "Get Help With English" Thread. If the mod there says it passes their standard, then I'm just worrying over nothing.

I thought you were trying to tell me what mindset I must have to enjoy a lore heavy game with loads of story broadcrumbs, and that is not something I take lightly. Each of us decides what mindset to enjoy the game with, nobody can tell otherwise. But I see I jumped the gun — THAT is my bad. My apologies.

Hum, that’s a good point to make (trying to make the trope Worf Had the Flu focus on Radagon alone, unrelated to the Elden Ring or the Beast), but as it stands, it might be necessary to BE that complicated. If the description didn’t address that, then there is no point of reference we could say that Radagon is indeed weaker than he was before the Shattering.

Let’s see if this simplification works — “Though Radagon’s prowess in combat is largely unknown (be it before or after his fusion with Marika), the fact the Elden Ring had been Shattered long ago and it is now currently infused into his body means the godlike being the Tarnished duels at the Elden Throne is still not at the height of his power; his body is literally breaking apart as a visual reminder of this. In addition, the fact he is not using any known incantation he is supposed to be a master of (Golden Order and possibly also Erdtree incantations) suggests Radagon might not be all there, if he is even alive at all.”

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I got an alert on facebook that a side-job I was keen for had a position open and I had to prioritize.

I'd say everything up to "height of his power" is good, but I think it could look neater if was sectioned.

How about this?

Two-fold:

• Radagon himself is not in good shape by the point the Tarnished finally breeches the Erdtree. Large parts of his body have crumbled into nothingness from the backlash of the Shattering, and he makes no use of any of the Erdtree or Golden Fundamentalism Incantations he's famous for contributing too; implying he's struggling to even think straight.

• As impressive as the veritable storm of golden light he can from the Elden Ring is, its implied to be a mere silver of the power the Ring contained while it was whole and bound to its proper vessel Marika; who once supposedly slew the god-ruler of the Fire Giants when not even Godfrey could bring them low.

This erroneously presents lack of Fundamentalist incantations in favor of his current move set and half of his body being replaced with black smoke as a disadvantage to Radagon himself. The game makes it as clear as it possibly could that it's the opposite, that these changes made him significantly more powerful. The points about the efficacy of his unusable boss move set vs any Fundamentalist incantations used by any other character (including his own Rings of Light) have already been brought up, but what seems to be ignored is that he literally blocks and parries with his black smoke arm and will take massively reduced damage to that part of his profile, clear proof that it's much tougher than the rest of him.

We also have no idea how strong Marika was either (Godfrey never tried to fight the Fell God) other than that she still needed armies, and as already noted Marika herself flat-out says that Radagon didn't have access to her godly power before the Shattering, so you can't scale them to each other. It's even possible, going by what the game establishes, that Radagon with the shards of the Elden Ring inside his body is more powerful than Marika being indirectly empowered by the whole Ring still inside the tree. There's never a basis for comparison between the two types of empowerment.

Do you think you can write up a better version of the current description, Snaplock?

I've realised getting into a lore debate was a bad idea, the main thing I want to change is that I feel the current description is a bit too wordy and could use a tune-up. I was thinking about bringing it to "Get Help With English", is anyone opposed?

My solution is simple: torch the entry and put a commented-out warning as to why it was so problematic. Expy is one of the most misused tropes on the site.

Ranni's exact involvement in the black knife plot is very ambiguous and subject to quite a bit of debate. We know for a fact that she stole the rune fragment and used it to kill her empyrean flesh, she outright admits as much in some of her dialogue. The black knifeprint also notes that whoever stole the rune made the daggers, which would be her. However, we don't know for sure where Godwyn's death fits in, she never says she intended for him to die, and there's evidence that the assassins are not her allies - not anymore, at least - since they attack Blaidd and Iji.

Godwyn getting murdered after befriending the dragons and averting the golden order's penchant for genocide does sound kinda suspicious, I agree. But there's not really anything definitively pointing to that as the reason either, it's more or less pure speculation. An interesting theory, but not solid enough to put on the page, I think.

Strictly speaking, it's not stated explicitly, but the chronicles speak for itself; Radahn brought his army to march from Caelid across Limgrave to reach Altus and invade Leyndell (easier said than done, even if it's less so than the Cleanrots), and even after being defeated in Leyndell and thus forced to go back home, meaning his army had to march a second time, Radahn and the Redmanes still retained enough morale and numbers to remain functional (contrast Godrick, who basically got his forces slaughtered) to later on fight the Cleanrots, who most likely didn't suffer meaningful casualties passing Altus, Liurnia, and Limgrave, as their wings are said to be "unclipped".

It's true the Redmanes got pushed back by the Cleanrots and slaughtered en masse by Malenia's Scarlet Rot bloom, but it's evident after Malenia and Finlay left the battlefield, the Redmanes still retained enough morale and forces to keep the Rot relatively contained in Caelid (Redmane Knight Armor: "When they were driven to defeat by Malenia's scarlet rot, the Redmane Knights burned the crest on the left breast of their armor to indicate their resolve."). While not stated, this is most likely a result of Radahn's leadership, because as the trailers show, Radahn didn't immediately become feral after being infected by the Rot, he succumbed over time, possibly months or years later.

The above, combined with how Radahn Soldier Ashes describe them ("General Radahn's soldiers were all reputed to be masterful warriors, and it was popularly said that the Redmanes knew no weakness."), are sufficient to paint Radahn as a brilliant military commander. Being able to keep your military forces perfectly functional despite suffering defeat after defeat (and against increasingly worse odds at that: first the Royal Army, which is by all accounts the largest and richest army of all demigods; then the Cleanrots, the most fierce of all Lordsworn knights and led by the continent's candidate for greatest warrior; and finally the in-universe equivalent of an unholy weapon of mass destruction known as the Scarlet Rot) is not anything an ordinary or even decent military commander can achieve.

Literally every description related to the Redmanes state they are the elite soldiers of the Demigods and one of the greatest armies in the Lands Between. You don't get that without a brilliant field commander, and it's shown how effective his leadership of the Redmanes are through their brilliant performance.

"Wishing to raise Miquella to full godhood, Mohg wished to become his consort, taking the role of monarch. But no matter how much of his bloody bedchamber he tried to share, he received no response from the young Empyrean." ~ Remembrance of the Blood Lord.

I don't know about you, but that bit sounds pretty rapey to me. Also, when we enter their boss room, Mohg comes out of Miquella's blood — he tried to "become one" with Miquella. Even if it was not a sexual process, fusing your body with someone when they are unconscious and unresponsive is pretty much a violation of personal dignity tantamount to rape.

Also, Mohg seems very down bad for Miquella, I think. "MIQUELLA IS MINE AND MINE ALONE!" when the Tarnished hasn't even uttered a single word about the slumbering god.

Why are you offended when it's pretty much all but stated directly?

There's def a creep factor to Mohg's behavior, but I do agree that some might have been a little too quick to jump to conclusions about the extent of Mohg's actions. That description could mean anything from sexual harassment to monologuing at a sleeping god about his Grand Plans. We're also not sure how Miquella's ability to compel affection plays into this. I still think it'd be wiser to keep that interpretation to a YMMV entry at the moment, until more information is given in potential DLC.

At the very least, Mohg came out of Miquella’s blood when we enter his boss chamber. As I said earlier, that meant he was at minimum infusing himself into Miquella’s blood; even if Mohg did not rape him, fusing his essence into someone who is sleeping and unresponsive is still a violation comparable to rape. Not necessarily sexual, but it is similar in nature.

If you insist on moving the part about him being a sexual rapist to YMMV due to lack of explicit evidence, then by all means, please do so. But please keep the parts which are explicitly shown and told to us... Or maybe I will just edit it myself.

Not sure if he was actually infusing himself, or simply using the blood as a means of magical travel, but I don't have a strong opinion on that. From what I've seen tho (and speaking just for myself obvi), I'm generally content with the direction of the new edits. Thanks for making them.

Don't know if this is allowed or frowned upon but just wanted to thank for the changes to the Mohg entry. It was nearly unreadable before with all the weird extrapolation and straight up misinformation presented as fact, and while his entry still kinda reeks of someone having a personal problem with the character, it's at least better than it was before.

I'm also pretty sure that a single asteroid hitting an empty forest is literally the only impact of his gravity well disappearing. Every other crater is already there beforehand, including all the ones with Fallingstar Beasts in them. The other "stars" just streak harmlessly in the sky.

Yeah, that's what I meant with the bit in parenthesis, those craters aren't relevant to anything Radahn did or didn't cause whatsoever.

Which would mean the whole Didn't Think This Through entry is.... a very odd case where Draco in Leather Pants loops all the way around to Ron the Death Eater. The entry follows the typical "gravity well protects the world from stars" headcanon, but then uses that to blame him for supposedly inadvertently "causing more damage to the world", when the damage in question doesn't actually exist whatsoever.

I suppose it is possible the falling meteors hit other parts of the world (i.e. outside Lands Between), but there is no real evidence on that.

In real life, meteor showers rarely result in even one of those meteors landing to the planet's surface; but when one passes, it usually means a dozen more in trajectories close to the falling one will follow. But applying that logic on the Lands Between's cosmos might be a mistake on my part.

Should it be deleted?

I think it should be.

Really, the reason I brought it up here rather than just deleting it right away was because I wondered if I'd just missed some piece of lore somewhere. With how much confusion there's been in the fanbase over what actually happened or didn't, I wasn't 100% sure.

But if nobody else has anything like that either....

It’s true Godfrey was very likely complicit with the War against the Giants and against the Storm Lord.

The War against the Giants was definitely genocide, and the only ones who said the Giants were evil and deserved the genocide are a) people of Marika’s empire, who were taught to believe the Giants were “nightmares, long gone”, and b) the One-Eyed Shield, which claim the One-Eyed God is BELIEVED to be an evil deity slain by Marika.

All of these are canon, and it’s more than sufficient to make Godfrey fall under Anti-Villain exactly like how in Dark Souls page Gwyn is classified as Anti-Villain for his similar genocide against the Everlasting Dragons (among other things).

Fudget, on what basis are you calling these fanfiction? Unless you have evidence, I think I will report you. Calling details with in-game factual support “fanfic” is very rude.

On that note, we CAN and SHOULD trope Godfrey under Grey in the Black and Grey Morality spectrum. It doesn’t matter if he is a mythological living legend IN-universe, players and us tropers are classifying his morality from out-of-universe standards (the same way how we apply Blue and Orange Morality to the Outer Gods in the Secondary page despite in-universe most outer gods are generally seen as automatically evil by many people). So yes, we CAN apply morality to Godfrey.

However, I cannot completely agree with Snaplock saying Godfrey is DEFINITELY complicit with all of Golden Order’s tyranny either; he is an Elden Lord, consort to Marika, and champion to Greater Will. There is a possibility he, like Radagon, might not be able to defy the Greater Will’s decree as long as he was Lord, which is implied to be why Marika divested his and his warriors’s Grace in the first place. We need to discuss thoroughly and gather more evidence for all possibilities before cementing our conclusion.

For now, I will delete Hero Antagonist. No matter what, Godfrey doesn’t qualify as that (he has no actual heroic actions AT PRESENT — showing kindness for his own son is familial benevolence, not heroism; to be a Hero Antagonist then he has to actually do things like try and prevent the Shattering Civil War from getting worse, or at least do something beyond merely showing up after the Erdtree is burnt down — and his actions in the past as Marika’s War Lord have questionable justifications, as mentioned earlier).

We WON’T be adding tropes on this matter unless we are done discussing. Consider yourselves warned. Though, my replies will be late — I need to get some rest, feel free to present your evidences and your interpretations of said details here.

12 hours have passed. Since neither of you adds anything to the matter, I will compile the facts we already have and list it into shorter, more concrete points so nothing more can be debated.

Definite facts:

- Godfrey led the War against the Giants, and felled the Storm Lord in Stormveil. His Grace was taken from him by Queen Marika just after he slew his last worthy opponent, marked by the hue in his eyes fading (Elden Lord Set).

- Godfrey’s War against the Giants were genocidal, leaving behind only one known survivor (Remembrance of Fire Giant).

- Godfrey killed a hero who sought vengeance against him during the Siege of Castle Morne (Sword Memorial in Castle Morne).

- Even during his rule as Lord (as in when suppressing his bloodlust), Godfrey ruled with a Might Makes Right rule, or in his exact quote, “a crown was warranted with strength” (Axe of Godfrey). That being said he was also said to be honorable and just by his subjects, unlike Godrick who justifies whatever actions he committed against the people of Limgrave.

Reasonable Conclusions:

- It is very unlikely Godfrey was responsible for the discrimination against the Omens or Misbegottens, given 2 of his very own sons were Omens and he showed nothing but tenderness for Morgott. In fact, both Godfrey and his Crucible Knights eventually were ALSO ostracized by the faith of Golden Order.

- Seeing as Radagon, Marika’s other half and 2nd Elden Lord could disagree with Marika and attempt to fix Elden Ring against her wishes, this suggests the Greater Will and Elden Beast were not forcefully enforcing their orders to Marika or the Elden Lord prior to the Shattering. This means Godfrey was in full control of his actions and thus complicit with the massacre of the Giants, invasion of Stormveil, and the like.

- It’s very likely Godfrey accepted the exile to leave Lands Between on his own volition, because some of his Crucible Knights are proven still wandering in Lands Between, which in turn implies Godfrey could have stayed if he really wanted to. He accepted it because he planned to grow stronger in the face of death, as stated by Marika’s spoken echoes, which further proves he was on board with at least parts of Marika’s plans.

Given all of these details, Snaplock’s Anti-Villain description is mostly accurate; just remove his involvement in the enslavement and discrimination of Omens, Misbegottens and Trolls since it’s fairly unlikely someone who enforced that would allow that same prosecution to be turned on HIM and his kinfolk.

Now with the points all summarized; Would you do the honors of editing it in? Or shall I?

A bit late to the discussion but I'll just give my thoughts.

I'm not sure about 'Draco in Leather Pants' since that trope is closely related to specific fandom habits and I'm not aware enough to judge.

Anti-Villain is definitely fitting though and all the points brought up in it are verifiably in the game.

~Cryocene Alas, I am returned.

So on the treatment of nonhumans in Godfrey and Marika's empire, I think it makes sense to mention it for two reasons.

One, I really see no evidence at all that the king of the land had absolutely no say in how the land was run. Really, it's self-contradictory even in the context of this page, because it then immediately credits anything good that happened in his term to him specifically ("Good King" entry). And as already stated, he loved Marika and she loved him, and he still loves her; so the absolutely most charitable reading is that he just didn't care.

Two, even if we are to think that he had no say in how the kingdom was run, he still bears great responsibility for that situation coming to pass in the first place. He led brutal wars of conquest and, in the aftermath of those wars, an oppressive regime was installed and entire races were enslaved. Including his own allies. In any other fictional work, would the loyal general of the "evil empire" faction tyrannically ruling over people and bringing ever more into said rule not be viewed as a villain just because he, specifically, has a military rather than political rank? I really doubt it.

As an aside, I think it should also be noted that Godfrey was particularly brutal and vicious even by the setting's standards. There are two direct contrasting examples in the same context that are related to him. Namely Godwyn convincing Marika to spare the dragons after himself sparing Fortisax, and Radagon bringing Liurnia into the kingdom by marriage (and letting them keep their policies - Albinaurics still get shat on but trolls seem more equal) rather than going full genocide and slavery, even though both of these peoples also worshipped foreign gods like the Giants and Stormlanders did.

Given that the Albinaurics had their own village in Liurnia and one of them working at the manor, I'd say even the Albinaurics were better off in Liuarnia.

I am not really saying Godfrey had no say in how the kingdom was run; as you say, as the First Elden Lord he definitely has the say in most things because Marika is usually acting to enforce the Elden Beast/Greater Will's decrees.

I am, however, convinced he is not the one responsible for the frankly disgusting prosecutions against Omens, Misbegottens and to a lesser extent the Crucible warriors. Because it's Golden Order faith who states all life not born of the Erdtree are unblessed and thus, inferior; then there is not a single thing Godfrey or even Marika can do about it, as it's part of the faith taught by Two Fingers and part of Greater Will's intentions over the Lands Between.

Going against the Greater Will's decree openly is not an option without thorough planning; Marika had to construct an elaborate plot over decades if not centuries to even begin a rebellion which had a chance of succeeding (Shattering the Elden Ring), and the instant she committed an act of open disobedience she and her other half got crucified in that forsaken throne for their troubles.

If it is that unimpeachable, then Liurnia still wouldn't get away with treating Trolls as people rather than slaves after being integrated into the kingdom.

Doubtful: Liurnia might be brought in as part of Marika's empire but its ruling estate is still the Carians. It's noted the disciples of Dark Moon are strangely tolerated by the Greater Will (to the point when the Dark Moon adherents in Eternal Cities committed "high treason" against the Greater Will, it specifically punished them and only them for the act; the Carians were still considered allies at the time and hostilities only started came the Shattering). This goes to show what the disciples of Dark Moon might get away with doing might not necessarily apply to Marika and Godfrey, who answer directly to the Greater Will. Thus, how Liurnia treats the Troll Knights aren't valid comparison to determine what Marika and Godfrey can and cannot do.

As far as I can search, from Radahn's Remembrance, weapons forged from his Remembrance, his Great Rune, the Gravity Sorcery spells, the Redmane Knights' armor set, and almost anywhere else mentioning Radahn I have searched, none has mentioned Radahn being afraid of the Stars or considers them a threat, actually.

The only times his motives are even discussed are by Sorceress Sellen, who mentions Radahn challenged the stars and arrested their constellations because of their connection to the Carian Royal Family's destiny, and the Collapsing Star Sorcery, which describes Radahn thanking his master for teaching him, because that would allow him to challenge the Stars.

All of these, combined with Balrog's points, seem to paint Radahn had no other reason other than to weaken Ranni.

Is there any source for Radahn challenging the Stars to protect the realm from its influece?

The only other mention of his motive I could find is by Morgott and he just talks about how Radahn participated in the shattering out of ambition, nothing about the stars or trying to stop something.

I searched everything, both in my game and on the wiki that would indicate that Radhan was afraid but everything I found describe the opposite so I'm honestly starting to think it's just an early misinterpretation made before anyone could really explore the game that no one really thought to go back and question, like that whole 'The mending rune of death remove immortality from the Lands Between' thing that was going around for a while.

It’s late in my timezone, so I will wait until I wake later this morning to see if anyone can bring a source for that notion. If by the time I wake there is no new evidence, then I will thoroughly scour both this page, the main page, and the YMMV to erase any mention of that headcanon.

Balrog, if you don’t want to wait for that, you may wait for 15 minutes or so. If there is nothing new, you can just edit them yourself. Be careful not to sound biased.

I'll wait and let you do it since I was part of the argument to begin with. That way it's more impartial.

This discussion your citing in your edits on the pages is two people;

"Radahn earned considerable renown as the Starscourge in this YOUTH, and it is said that it was during this time he engraved the gravity crest up these blades." -https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Starscourge+Greatsword, Description of the Starscourge Greatsword.

Radahn war against the Stars was long before the Shattering, and has nothing to do with Ranni. I will be removing your edits.

It, however, also doesn’t specify Radahn is trying to protect the lands from the Stars. It also only explains how he obtains the title, Starscourge, by Conquering the Stars and going against the Star spawn beasts. He did not erect the gravity well to block the Stars completely until the Shattering. Don’t accuse of bias while you are also interpreting ambiguous statements to your favor.

Don’t make careless edits, as it will only waste your and my time. Finish discussing first when presenting new details.

Have you discovered any dialogue, item or spell description supporting Radahn blocked the Stars to protect the lands?

All that can be easily inferred through this; https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImpliedTrope

Let's take the stance for one second that Radahn is not holding up the stars to hold them back, there's still zero suggestions or implications that Radahn is Secretly Selfish. Radahn has already been established in text as ordering his troops to act as a Bulwark to protect the rest of the realms from the Rot.

Not to mention Balrog is simplifying the Grey-and-Gray Morality of the Shattering; Ranni herself is a completely sketchy character whose done numerous evil actions and Radahn trying to remove a morally ambiguous rival during WARTIME does not implicate them

So no, even if we take the above stance as being it, that entry is not true, and is a misuse of Secretly Selfish

The discussion was open for almost a day without you providing any input or even saying you wanted to participate, sorry but it's not like we could guess or just wait for your point to prove itself forever.

How can it be inferred? It's nice to say 'it's implied' and condescendingly drop a trope definition but WHAT implies it exactly?

The Shattering lasted for centuries and around the start of it could have been considered Radahn's youth for all we know so the part you mentioned is literally meaningless for this discussion nor does it indicate any motivation behind his actions, let alone a selfless one or a fear of the stars.

Ordering his troops to act as a bullwark against the world turning into a hellscape has no influence on him being selfish or not, especially since we are talking about two things that happened before the scarlet rot was unleashed and that's without mentioning that Caelid wouldn't be a hellhole if it wasn't for Radahn's involvement in the shattering so it's less of a selfless act and more just taking responsibility for what he helped cause.

Participating in the Shattering at all was an inherently selfish act and so was trying to take over the country through clearly illegitimate means, Morgott outright says so. It's way more than an implication, it's directly stated.

Having a rivalry during wartime doesn't change that participating in a pointless and destructive civil war out of ambition and blocking the stars to weaken Ranni (the same stars that seemingly power his vulnerable mother, her whole academy, the Caria Knights AND his own gravity magic teacher) are both selfish actions.

Ranni has no confirmed evil actions, the closest being her involvement with the rune of death but it's unclear at best and she is completely irrelevant to this discussion. She could be the evilest character in the game and it wouldn't affect wether there is any indication of Radahn fearing the stars or not. You have yet to provide any too.

Unilaterally declaring 'You're just wrong' isn't an argument and just going ahead to brute force your own edit while the discussion is still ongoing is highly disrespectful and childish.

Let’s not waste our time with points which are ALREADY established or are irrelevant. I have no intention of supporting any notion not stated nor implied by the game. What we are trying to establish here, as Balrog has mentioned from the beginning and Fudget has now brought up; Radahn’s motivations for “challenging the Stars” and then arresting its constellations.

It should be noted that while edits made by previous tropers indicated Radahn attained the Starscourge title for arresting the constellations, Fudget has brought it to attention that Radahn might have attained that title in his youth, before repulsing the stars away.

This is because his “crushing victory” to arrest the constellations is heavily implied to be during the Shattering wars (prior to the Shattering it’s made explicit Marika and the Elden Ring was dictating the positions of stars, so Radahn erecting that gravity well to repulse the stars is literally pointless if done at any point prior to the Shattering).

Let’s focus on his possible motivations. Since Radahn learned gravity magic in Sellia under an Alabaster Lord for his horse Leonard, it’s extremely unlikely he held Fantastic Racism for the star spawns (not to mention nothing ever indicates him as such). My opinion would be he was seeking to be a Glory Seeker; he was said to idolize Godfrey for his War against the Giants even after the First Elden Lord had been banished, so it was possible he wanted to challenge the stars, another primeval force, in his desire to emulate his idol during his youth. This is supported by the Collapsing Star Sorcery, which describes - despite his earlier motivation being for his horse - him saying “I thank you for your tutelage, for now I can challenge the stars.” What are your thoughts?

In addition, Fudget brought up a very good point. Secretly Selfish would fit him only if Radahn was intending to paint his actions as something selfless or benevolent while in reality he had personal motivations for his own ambitions. If him challenging the stars was for his own personal glory from the beginning, then subsequently arresting the constellations would not fit the trope; he makes no pretense he does so for any other reason other than for his goals.

Also, we should address another point; given Radahn originally wanted to learn gravity magic for his horse but then by the time he finished his tutelage he proclaimed his intent to challenge the stars, it is also possible his motivations have grown again from the time period between his youth and the Shattering. Given, as I stated earlier, Radahn had absolutely no reason to erect the gravity well to block the stars completely until after the Shattering, what could be his motivations? Is it simply for flexing? Unlikely, but possible (given he challenged the stars for seemingly no reason other than glory), or did he do so out of concern for the realm now that Elden Ring has Shattered and now vulnerable to falling stars? Unlikely, but possible (we would need evidence to support it though). However, going purely based on what is stated and not stated in the game, I honestly can’t see him doing it for any other reason other than to weaken Ranni, which IS stated by Sorceress Sellen, who is a sorcerer branded heretic by Raya Lucaria Academy and thus has no bias or reason to paint either Radahn in a bad light or Ranni in a good light.

I personally don't really care about speculating as to why he did his initial fight that got him his name, I'm just generally against having the pages say he stopped the stars out of fear or a desire to protect when nothing say so, the lore make it extremely unlikely and the only sources that mention his motivations for it basically say 'it was to weaken Ranni' and 'He was ambitious'.

The only speculation I have is that what got him his title might have been an attempt at recreating Godwyn's whole 'fight and befriend / dominate the dragons' but with the stars since at that point Radagon had probably already left to marry Marika, thus breaking the alliance between the Dark Moon and the Greater Will, probably making the stars 'fair game' for conflicts. It would also fit with Radahn idolizing Hoarah, which could mean it was Radahn's way of choosing the golden order over his Carian heritage but it's all basically headcanon.

Generally, I have no interest for speculating either. However Fudget did bring up Implied Trope and thus I am exploring all the possibilities for his motivations both during his youth and during the Shattering, going from item and spell descriptions on top of character dialogues. So far the only ones at the very least inferred is Glory Seeker (at least in his youth, from Collapsing Stars Sorcery description), Ambition (at least during the Shattering, according to Morgott), and Removing the Rival in Ranni (during the Shattering, according to Sorceress Sellen).

The motivation to protect the realm is indeed inferred from how he and his Redmane Knights gave pretty much everything they had to keep Scarlet Rot from spreading, but whether or not that was from heroism, sense of responsibility, or even pragmatism (he could not allow the Land he plans to rule to be ravaged by the Scarlet Rot), is another matter entirely. Nothing I can find of can clarify.

Sure, protecting the realm might be a general motivation of his and his motivation behind fighting the Scarlet Rot but nothing indicate that it was his motivation behind the specifics acts this discussion is about and we got another motivation outright stated.

As for implied trope, I can't think of anything implied anywhere that isn't already on the page

I will wait for about an hour or so to see if there is any new spin or interpretation of this matter which has in-game support.

If not, I will make it clear the points I intend to insert:

- Radahn earned his title Starscourge during his youth, likely after finishing his tutelage under an Alabaster Lord, by challenging the stars and their spawns (this point is unarguable). Glory Seeker will be added as an Implied Trope, but nothing confirmed. It will be subject to change if we get new details.

- Radahn is heavily implied to have arrested the constellations during the Shattering (nothing explicitly confirms it, but it simply would not make sense if he did it before the Shattering since Elden Ring dictates the stars). Secretly Selfish won't be added, given he doesn't make it a secret what he does is for his own goals by participating in the Shattering in tbe first place, and it is true that even if his motivation was solely to weaken Ranni, then weakening your potential opponent in a war is only natural, nothing secretly selfish about it. His motives would be troped based on two sources mentioned in the game; Sorceress Sellen (who is hardly biased against Radahn nor is she biased for Ranni) and Morgott (who makes harsh but fair judgments on all his siblings).

Any non-minor edits made about this matter after that point which does not have a specific source and without a prior discussion will be zapped, and I will request the mods for a strike or a ban to the offender.

I just wanted to ask if Godwyn's folder should given an unmarked spoilers tag.

Most of the examples are whited-out, and even then it seems like a lot of them give away what he became after the Shattering.

It's a similar case to how Sulyvahn in Dark Souls III has an extreme difference in narrative role between the original Japanese and the translated English. We keep both, since "Blind Idiot" Translation doesn't make the official English translation any less valid.

Besides, in Ranni's case it still doesn't make her ending less open to interpretation anyways. It just makes her ending less sinister sounding with the choice of words; Ranni has never made it a secret that Age of the Stars is to utterly erase "all that came before" - all legacy ever since Marika became Elden Ring's bearer and began Age of the Erdtree.