Ask The Tropers

Indeed, only the pages in the self-demonstrating namespace should be self-demonstrating.

I don't see how it being in first-person makes it incomprehensible to people who aren't comic fans, but that Seasonal Rot entry you mentioned sounds like someone's complaining about "liberal politics" at Marvel through Deadpool's mouth. "Those money-grubbing, mouth-breathing, SJW-loving motherfuckers at Marvel, namely that inbred mouth-breather Axel Alonso" sounds over the line, even if it's supposed to be Deadpool talking.

That line sounds out of character for Wade. Not exactly how he usually phrases himself. It's not witty, just angry.

That was added by SpideyROX812; not seeing any other agenda-based edits from a quick glance at their history.

Yeah, a removal of self-demonstrating and a lock would be helpful.

There was a past query for this kind of thing earlier, but that was related to DEATH BATTLE! and Deadpool's appearances on the show.

My questions about this are, what's so special about Deadpool that he gets preferential treatment on the site and that everything about him should be written from his perspective? How come other 4th wall-breaking characters don't get that treatment? Is this thing even allowed on the site? And if not, how come this has gone far too long without anyone objecting to it? Because to me, to make everything about Deadpool just copies of his Self-Demonstrating page is lazy and a blatant excuse to justify Word Cruft.

For what it's worth, we do have a clean-up thread for Self-Demonstrating Character Pages, so we could discuss what to do with the Deadpool pages there.

Although I recall there are other characters who have that same problem with having subpages in the first-person (The Joker, Thanos).

^^ To be fair, Deadpool isn’t just A 4th wall breaking character—he is THE 4th wall breaking character. To anyone even casually familiar with the character, the fact that he KNOWS he’s in a comic/movie/game is the one thing they know about him, and it’s the most consistent character trait across every adaptation. Having Deadpool in any medium and not having him acknowledge being in said medium is what would be out of character for him.

^ That doesn't mean we have to compromise the clarity of the involved articles, though. TV Tropes articles have to be written in a language that is understandable to all readers, both those versed into the involved work and those who aren't. It's the reason why we discourage Zero-Context Examples and Word Cruft.

And plus, the TvTropes articles aren't official "merchandise" of Marvel.

^^^ I mean, not entirely. I'm familiar with the movies more than the comics, and though the movie brings up the 4th wall thing quite a bit, it's not emphasized as much as Wade being generally sarcastic and funny. So when I think "Deadpool", I don't think "that guy who breaks the 4th wall a lot".

^^^ & ^^ That wasn't my point. I was only addressing the OP's question of "what make Deadpool special". How the wiki chooses to narrate its own pages is not an issue for me. I'm simply addressing the point being raised.

^ You just proved my point. The movie does bring up his 4th wall breaking a lot, because if it didn't, he would be out-of-character. I guarantee you 100% that if that movie had come out and Wade had never broken the 4th wall once, people would have rioted. As I said, it's the single most consistent trait he has in every adaptation. The fact that you noticed it, despite not being familiar with him outside of the film, proves exactly the point I'm making.

Other people who break the 4th wall, like She-Hulk, Bugs Bunny, or Harley Quinn you could reasonably make a story/show/film about and never have them break that wall once without any real concern. But Deadpool at the moment? No chance.

^ Yes, but you also said that what people know about him is that he's "the guy who knows he's fictional", to paraphrase. I only know any of this because I saw the movie, and when I think of him, I don't think of his fourth wall breaking. That's not even close to what comes to mind immediately. Casual fans are more likely to think about him as a humorous character from the movies, not the 4th-wall-breaking comic book character.

Do I know about the 4th wall stuff? Sure. Do I think it's the main aspect of his character, and feel like it's a trait that makes him stand out? No. To me it's just kind of a thing he does on occasion and nothing more.

Hell, I actually had to sit down and think of how often he actually broke the 4th wall in the movies. It definitely wasn't a trait that jumped out at me more than me sitting down and going "yeah, I guess he did it once or twice".

Anyway, the point is that it comes off as Fan Myopia, assuming everyone sees the character the same way or knows about specific things.

^^^ & ^^ That wasn't my point. I was only addressing the OP's question of "what make Deadpool special". How the wiki chooses to narrate its own pages is not an issue for me. I'm simply addressing the point being raised.

Then It's irrelevant to the conversation and just creating unnecessary tangent. The issue at point is "Deadpool's article is hard to read" (which is totally the case), and not Deadpool's reputation as a character. One has no impact on the other.

^^ Again, you're proving my point. You, a casual fan, know of his 4th wall breaking because it was prominently featured in the film. You, personally, may not see it as how you define the character, but the point remains that it was featured in the film because it's such an essential part.

Imagine, for example, that someone watched a Superman film with no idea about the character. In any medium, probably the most stand-out feature of Superman is that he can fly. So, in just about ANY medium he's in (unless it's deliberately trying to subvert expectations), he will be shown flying or at the very least hovering. Random Joe may not realize this point and may personally think of Superman as "that bulletproof strong man in a cape". But the fact still remains that flight is considered the such a signature trait of Superman that he doesn't feel like the character without it.

^ I prefer decisions and discussions to be made with accurate information. Whether or not the rest of the participants in the thread feel it's worth consideration is your choice to make.

There was a similar thread about Lobo.

^^ Sure, but we aren't making articles solely based around Superman's ability to fly, are we? We shouldn't go by what fans consider to be the most important trait to emphasize regardless of what casual viewers or non-fans would think of the character; we need to go for clarity and letting everyone understand the page.

Even if it's a prominent part of his character, it's not emphasized enough in the movies for me to care about him doing it. Maybe it's essential, I really don't care, I was only arguing about your statement that it's what fans know about Deadpool, and that's just not true. If I didn't go back and replay the movie in my head, I might've forgotten about the 4th wall stuff entirely. You can say it's in the movie because it's such a prominent part of the character, but now the character is known for more than just the comic books, and we need to not discount fans who don't care about the comics and so only know the 4th wall breaks as an occasional gag rather than an essential part of the character.

You made the claim that it's what "everyone thinks of" when they think of Deadpool, and that's wrong, because it's not what I think of, and I'm willing to bet there's plenty of people who have the same perception that I do. Whether or not it's an essential part of the character doesn't change whether or not fans think of it first or at all, and if it's worth emphasizing to such an absurd degree on his character and work pages.

To me, how prominent of an aspect it is to his character is not as relevant as the need for clarity and conciseness in description writing.

I should also add that the knowledge thing only works for people who, well, know Deadpool, assuming it's true that literally every Deadpool fan knows and cares about the 4th wall stuff and doesn't just think of it is as a minor gag in the movies. We can't write articles that only the fans of the work can understand, regardless of how important the trait is to the character.

^^ & ^ Again, you're saying things that really aren't related to my core argument and continue proving the point I'm making while trying to refute it. But I'll leave it at that, because like I said, my goal isn't to defend the way the article is written. I just wanted to answer the OP's question.

If I was to give my honest opinion, I actually HATE character-based Self Demonstrating Articles with a passion. To me, they're redundant and tend to be a magnet for poor example writing as it inspires tropers to try to be "witty". For example, there's the recently-created Lady Shiva, which makes absolutely NO sense. There's nothing about Lady Shiva as a character that warrants a page written in her voice, and the page is riddled with bad writing on top of it.

I'm just gonna say I fully support a standardized Deadpool Comic Book page being made. The Self-Demonstrating page can still exist on its own, I just don't see why this particular one just absolutely has to be the only way to read the page.

^^ Eh, the only argument I was trying to refute is that the 4th wall is what Deadpool is known for, and everything I said was about that specific issue. I'm unsure how me repeatedly saying "I don't know Deadpool for his 4th wall stuff" proved that's what he's known for, so I'm confused at how I was proving your argument correct. But, it really isn't that relevant to this discussion, so I'll drop it too and we can just agree to disagree on this particular point.

The page really needs to be fixed, or at least we need a more standardized page.

Even if Deadpool's 4th-wall-breaking is an essential part of his character, does that really warrant having all pages and sub-pages about him Self-Demostrating?

^^^ I agree and support it as well. My main concern about it though is that it may trigger the hardcore Deadpool fanbase to defend the Self-Demonstrating style of his pages and examples, and frequently engage in Edit Wars to revert any standardized edits like he's some Sacred Cow of the 4th wall.

Clear, Concise, Witty in that order.

If the Deadpool page is hard to read in its current state then it shouldn't be Self-Demonstrating.

I think the amount of replies is getting too long here. In some cases repeating questions that have already been answered or in some cases not even addressing O Ps point entirely. Might want to take this to the discussion forum mentioned earlier.

Deadpool's pages being self-demonstrating is even listed in the Web Original folder on Grandfather Clause. I don't understand how being in first-person makes it so hard to read.

^ It's not just that they're in "first person". They're prioritizing wit to being well-written and easy for people to understand.

I find those kinds of profiles annoying tbh. Just keep them to self-demonstrating articles.

Witty is last on the list of three, so I'd say concise outranks it. Self Demonstrating reduces conciseness, and often clearness. Worst case scenario for moving this sort of thing to the Self Demonstrating namespace is probably edit wars and some suspensions as a result. Chances are, it will calm down after a few months, and it will return to business as usual. In conclusion, the Main namespace page should be standardized. There's much to gain, and little to lose.

Nothing should lack a standardized trope page. If Deadpool already has a self-demonstrating, there is absolutely no reason for the comic book page to be written in his perspective. That should be an option, not the rule.

I'd say at the very least, ComicBook.Deadpool, which is currently a redirect to Self-Demonstrating, should be made into its own page.

Take it to a thread, this is not resolving itself quickly. Link it here, and this query will be locked.

Here is the appropriate thread.

Can this query be locked now?