• 29 Dec 5th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 11th Dec, 2017 04:36:55 AM
    Music.Also Sprach Zarathustra is a work page, but it looks like a trope page (listing appearances in media rather than tropes it uses, for example) and is on several indexes for tropes. What to do? Reply

      Pull from the trope indexes, add to the work indexes, to start with. Then sort out what tropes would go on the page.

      It's not that simple. I'm not sure if it should be a trope, a work or both.

      If it's a trope, it shouldn't be in the Music namespace.

      PaulA is correct. It's patently a work, and if it's being used as a trope (i.e., Work X includes "Also Sprach Zarathustra" in its soundtrack), then it's incorrect. The correct trope would be Public Domain Soundtrack.

      Note that Fighteer is referring to other works using Also Sprach Zarathustra as a trope.

      I get the impression that the OP meant the other way round: that the workpage lists references by other works. As far as I understand, it is OK for ASZ's work page to contain a list of "These other works refer to Also Sprach Zarathustra or make use of the music in their soundtrack".

      You know, it seems more like ASZ should be a Useful Notes page, if it's collecting nothing but references and has no tropes in and of itself.

      Wouldn't it be rather odd to have a Useful Notes page for a work which should be tropable? Is there a precedent for that?

      Also, if the ASZ page has no tropes, it looks like it just needs some wiki magic. Surely there must be tropes that apply to a piece of programmatic music?

      If that page was meant to be a trope (perhaps by someone who misunderstood a trope with a Trope Codifier, or something like that) it should be proposed at the TLP first. Works are a free launch, but new tropes are not.

      It would be similar to Dracula and Frankenstein's Monster in the sense of being public-domain content that people use in works.

      Yes, it is a work, and yes, it does use tropes like any work, but there's a reason we don't often have work articles for individual songs — it's very hard to make them interesting.

      So what should be done with the page? Music.Ride Of The Valkyries has the same problem.

      If we can find enough tropes applying to it, I think it should be made into a proper work page.

      Note that this is not just a song or a theme; it's a long symphonic poem which actually tells a story. There's a lot more potential to find tropes here than in, say, Ride of the Valkyries.

      What to do with that page?

      What I suggested should work. Particularly since Gnome Titan indicates there's a story there, so multiple tropes can be placed on the page.

      Appearances in other works may be put into a Referenced by... page, IIRC.

      Unfortunately, it's been years since I listened to ASZ, and I'm not really current with the story it's telling (except that it's based on Nietzsche's philosophical book with the same title), so I can't volunteer to update the page.


      I'd do no better than you. But yeah, Music.Also Sprach Zarathustra should be a work page with works that use it on a Referenced by... subpage.

      What should we do with Music.Ride Of The Valkyries?

      Probably should redirect to The Ring of the Nibelung since it's part of that opera.

      Ride of the Valkyries should be a trope. It is used as a trope in order to evoke a certain mood, in storytelling. When they play it as the helicopters are flying out in Apocalypse Now, that is a storytelling device.

      Ditto Also Sprach Zarathrustra. There are distinctions between these musical passages being used as storytelling devices and the larger works they reference. If we don't think a trope should be in the Music namespace then there should be two pages, one for the well-known musical bit in Main and a second one for the work as a whole in Music.

      It looks like Music.Also Sprach Zarathustra and Music.Ride Of The Valkyries may be structured the way they are because they were originally intended as subpages to Standard Snippet.

      ^^Maybe you should ask in Trope Finder if a trope for something like Ride of the Valkyries' use in mood setting already exists.

      Even if there isn't such a trope, it would need a different title. More mood setting, classical and other, pieces exist, and Rot V might bend or break some of the rules on trope titles.

      ^That's how it's being used right now, as a trope. And it doesn't need a new title. The question is namespace.

      Just because it's being used as a trope does not mean it is correctly used. It's not the first time a work was improperly used as a trope example.

      And the name is not appropriate for a trope. A trope's name about music used to set the scene or add effect should not be named after one specific piece. It's too narrow a focus, and will lend itself to problems l.

      Again, check in Trope Finder to see if there is already a trope with that meaning. If not, TLP time.

      But Ride is currently both in the Music namespace and is a piece of music, and the page should be treated as such.

      "And the name is not appropriate for a trope."

      Who says? It is a trope, it is used as a trope, it has a name that is well used and easily understood.

      "A trope's name about music used to set the scene or add effect should not be named after one specific piece."

      Why? These are well-known musical tropes?

      "and will lend itself to problems"

      No problems have been demonstrated other than the namespace itself.

      "Again, check in Trope Finder to see if there is already a trope with that meaning."

      Waste of time. The only trope with the meaning of Ride of the Valkyries is "Ride of the Valkyries".

      "If not, TLP time."

      Waste of time. Move "Also Sprach Zarathustra" and "Ride of the Valkyries" to main. Create a work page with tropes for "Also Sprach Zarathrustra" the work, which would be a list of tropes in the entire work—if we can generate such a list, that is. This second step would not be necessary for "Ride of the Valkyries" because there is already a work page, The Ring of the Nibelung. Move "Ride of the Valkyries" to Main as well, then we can all go about our day.

      How is all this not covered under Standard Snippet?

      ^^ "A trope's name about music used to set the scene or add effect should not be named after one specific piece."

      "Why? These are well-known musical tropes?"

      Because Trope Namer Syndrome.

      Thank you, Gideon.

      It has been discussed before on this site, more than once just since I've been here, that it is a bad idea to name tropes after specific works, slang, stock phrases, etc., for the reasons I cited and more.

      The decision not to do that has long been made. It's not happening. There are too many bad reasons to go back to when tropes were named whatever seemed immediately applicable to the creator, now that we know the broader effect., and too many good ones to stay with current naming conventions.

      And two possible tropes that apply have been named, and my guess is that there's probably a couple more that will fit in some capacity.

      I know what it's like to be focused on This Idea to the exclusion of all other suggestions. I was awful at it, especially before I started my levothyroxin. I had friends figuratively hit me over the head on various aspects of my tunnel vision. (With permission.)

      Some things are not worth digging in on. Especially when they're objectively ant hills.

      "... my guess is that there's probably a couple more that will fit in some capacity"

      Orchestral Bombing, for example.

      ^ And Fanfare.

      Also Public Domain Soundtrack, if that applies.
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