Becoming oddly positive lately.: Osama Bin Laden

I've noticed that a lot of the recent edits to the page are basically tropers defending the guy (or to be fair, arguably disputing more extreme negative characterizations of him). It's sort of like something that bugs me, but I don't want to wade into.

Hodor

I trimmed it a bit.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

Thanks.

Hodor

Well as one of the recent editors I have to say that horrible as his acts were, they weren't the unreasoning puppy-raping acts of a cartoon villain just out to do evil for evil's sake which was kinda how the page has looked. I'm utterly opposed absolutely everything he stands for, but there is more method than madness to his actions (which are classic asymmetric warfare tactics). Plus, he was doing much the same sort of thing to the old USSR when it existed and we in the west all cheered (check the Bond film example) and said he was justified in them. We can't really turn around decry him because he has changed the target to us. Well we can, but we really should mention the Gray-and-Grey Morality inherent in that. We should try and keep it as neutral as possible.

edited 1st Dec '10 3:32:17 PM by CrypticMirror

"Disproportionate Retribution: Inverted; bombing only two buildings is nothing compared to the shit American foreign policy caused in the Arab, and the Islamic world, in general."

... what

Yeah, stuff like that.

Hodor

What.

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

I agree with what you're saying here, but

just because the US was ok with it then doesn't make it morally right now. It's also not as simple as you make it sound, the mujahideen fighting against the Soviets were not one big bloc led by bin Laden, they were a diverse group, some of them with very different ideologies and goals. As soon as the USSR and its puppet government in Afghanistan disappeared, the mujahideen did in fact start fighting amongst each other. The Taliban faction weren't even one of the biggest groups, they were just lucky and opportunistic.

I don't know if the U.S. actually did give money to bin Laden, but anti-Soviet mujahideen =/= Taliban.

I do know that there is a group of people/scholars/political scientists who basically blame the U.S. for indirectly causing the rise of radical Islam, and all the bad things associated with it. Has to do with Israel existing. I assume that is what the quote is referring to.

edited 1st Dec '10 7:58:27 PM by melloncollie

Should I go ahead and move this to On Topic Conversations?

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

Who the fuck wrote that trash?

I remember someone else on this wiki saying that even other terrorists are starting to give up on Bin Laden, because his plans explicitly rely on divine intervention, which supposedly will come as soon as he's proved his faith enough with token attacks in the U.S. and elsewhere. They followed up by saying that he's no better at constructing a plan than the underpants gnomes. I have no idea whether this is true, but I'm just putting it out there.

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Honestly, that's how I feel about terrorism in general: Okay, we're going to bomb this dance club and accomplish... what exactly?

edited 1st Dec '10 10:32:55 PM by Roman

| DA Page | Sketchbook |

^^ That's very interesting.

I read a WMG somewhere that bin Laden's real goal is probably to incite civil wars and general chaos in the Middle East, and then his buddies would take advantage of the situation to take over.

^ To spread fear among civilians. That's kinda why they're called "terrorists". The more violence there is, the more people lose faith in the government, and if they feel that their lives are immediately at stake it's hard to tell which side they will support, some might end up supporting (or at least not opposing) the terrorists for fear of retribution.

It's also a recruitment tactic to make their organization look more effective, proactive, and stronger, to appeal to the more violent, extremist .1% of the population. It's like a very loud, flashy advertisement. They have to get new members from somewhere.

edited 1st Dec '10 10:56:57 PM by melloncollie

Also, I'm pretty sure we weren't expecting the Taliban to start mucking around after we funded them.

Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.

I agree with what Cryptic Mirror posted. That this is not a simple black and white situation. I hope that tvtropes can stay unbiased and neutral on the manner, unlike biased mainstream media.

I also agree with everything melloncollie posted, including: "I do know that there is a group of people/scholars/political scientists who basically blame the U.S. for indirectly causing the rise of radical Islam, and all the bad things associated with it. Has to do with Israel existing. I assume that is what the quote is referring to."

(I italicized this portion because it is the most important reason for why he did what he did and it should be enlisted on the main page with his quote)

Just because a person is a villain does not mean there is not any redeeming factors/motives, or his side of the story should not be reported, or he does not bring up any valid points/arguments; and tvtropes should try to encompass all these aspects, despite it being about a villain. We should try to stay neutral whether its fiction or nonfiction. Don't worry that in doing so, that the terrorist have won on us!

I do NOT want to be viewed as some kind of terrorist apologetic (I find any kind of murder of innocents to be utterly IMMORAL!), I just want tvtropes to stay neutral on this controversial topic, rather than being a replica of biased mainstream media.

edited 2nd Dec '10 2:10:54 AM by SuperPop

I haven't really checked out the page but I would like to say that it is very important to understand the motives, methods and other factors that affect the situation rather than just sit around in a group of 5-6 guys joking about how evil he is and that he isn't even human. It's an attitude that will never solve the situation and will likely lead to a new person replacing bin laden after he dies (if he's even still alive) and continue the anti-american terrorism.

At this point I'm pretty sure he's dead. His most recent videos showed that he possibly had Parkinsons, and that after we sent him to ground, living in a cave wasn't doing much good.

The most recent circulated video was even their attempt at using a body double of Osama.

I sure hope not. I don't think he should be able to die quietly as a free man

I can't find any humanity left in him. He's a monster who kills innocents, nothing more.

It's very important that the explanations of Osamas motives don't come over as justifications of his actions since that would imply that his actions are justified (or even just). An implication that I think people are rightfully offended about.

Edit: I went over the page and removed several "Osama has a point"-like potholes, which I think imply just what I said above.

edited 2nd Dec '10 6:44:57 AM by DasAuto

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick. — SF Debris

I think you explained what I had an issue with.

This is what struck me, because a lot of those entries didn't sound like they were saying "Bin Laden has a somewhat understandable motive/grievance", but more like "Bin Laden is the good guy in this conflict".

Hodor

The rather thorny problem is that to a lot of people in the Middle East and surrounding area, he is. They have a lot of negative experiences of Western Actions and view him in a different context because of it. This isn't a simple case of right and wrong, or even wrong and more wrong. Its all sorts of right, wrong and indifferent all mixed up in one huge moral quagmire.

In short we here in the west hate him because he hurt us, and people in the middle east and surrounding area like him because he is punishing those that hurt them (and propped up regimes that hurt them).

That doesn't enter into what I said.

Now if you excuse me, Starfleet is about to award the Christopher Pike Medal to my dick. — SF Debris

You could always check the page history, Barkey, if you want to know who wrote it. o.o