Jupiterian Local
Putting this at the top for visibility, then I'll talk about the video. Remember a while ago when I was asking if there was anywhere else where people talked about Nanoha online? I found a Nanoha Discord that's pretty chill. Invitation link
if anyone's interested. Pop in and say hi if you want to nerd out about Nanoha.
Anyway, the video.
First off, I originally found Digibro through his Nanoha retrospective (and I think I found that through this thread, actually). I thought those videoes were generally good, and ended up watching a bunch of other stuff of his, but it seems like the more recent they are the worse they get. At some point he seems to have let internet youtube stardom get to his head and he stopped so much making arguments for his points as stating his opinion as fact and expecting people to agree with him because he's the youtube anime commentator guy. So if I let my dislike of Digibro color my commentary, apologies in advance.
Here's a tldr for anyone not interested in watching the entire half-hour video (he tends to ramble, so I'm just going to summarize):
To tldr the tldr (since even that's pretty long) and attempt to bludgeon it into some form of coherence, here's Digibro's basic points:
- The Nanoha franchise is cute girls + violence + strongly emotional character conflicts, but has problems with pacing. Vivid Strike is the best show in the franchise so far since it capitalizes on the series' strengths while minimizing its weaknesses (particularly in comparison to Vivid, which had more problems with pacing and less of the emotional goodness since Vivid's story had no real stakes to it).
- A major problem with Vivid Strike was its disconnect from the rest of the franchise — a lot of things in place at the beginning of Vivid Strike are different from what was last saw in Vivid without any explanation, plus there are several stylistic differences and (seeming) retcons.
- Despite this and other flaws, Vivid Strike absolutely delivers on the franchise's core experience (see point one), and ends up being a satisfying and entertaining show.
As far as his first point, I tend to disagree that Nanoha has pacing issues on the whole. Actually, I tend to take the opposite view of him — I think Vivid Strike suffers from being paced a bit too fast. There's not enough time spent on really developing the characters; Fuka is fairly flat, and Rinne (who gets the most development of anyone in Vivid Strike by far) goes from "nice kid" to "ice queen" to "kind friend" a too quickly for me to really buy it. With a bit more time spent on it, they could have done something to show that she didn't want to be an ice queen, but was afraid to open up to anyone for fear of being hurt again. The implication is there, sure, but I would have preferred to see it. While it's true that the other shows can be a bit repetitive, that's deliberate — it's to show that the characters are trying (and failing) to resolve their differences without resorting to violence. The fact that they keep butting heads looking for an alternative until they realize a showdown is inevitable is what really sells the befriending theme — they don't want to fight, but if they have to, then they're going to go all out. The fact that Vivid Strike jumped straight to "I'll beat the problems out of her!" (or rather, relegated the failed attempts at reconciliation to flashbacks) was a weakness in my mind, not a strength.
Most of the second point is because he either misunderstood things or didn't see things in Strikers and Vivid, but I find it hard to blame him for that, given that the stuff he's confused over wasn't made especially clear or hasn't come up in the Vivid anime yet. Yeah, some of it is covered in the manga, but I don't think that it's unfair criticism to say a sequel series is confusing because the original story isn't finished yet. As far as Vivio's power level, he appears to have missed the fact that her ridiculous badassery at the end of Strikers wasn't due to her personal power, it was due to the relic that Jail jammed into her (which Nanoha destroyed to end their fight). This point was never made especially clear, though, so I feel that's more the show's failure than it is Digibro's.
On his third point, I generally agree. Vivid Strike was definitely flawed (and in some ways quite deeply), but ultimately that didn't keep it from being good. Despite its problems, it was a fun watch and a worthy addition to the franchise.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
So, now that volume 2 of the Vivid Strike blurays has been released, we finally got to see Episode 5.5.
This content really, really should have been in the series itself. Its 14 minutes long, shows the point in time in which Fuuka is at "you've improved a ton, but you still have a long way to go", and actually shows us magical combat!
Here's hoping that episode 5.75 and episode 13 from the remaining blurays are just as good!
Did you see Goliath in that episode. He was huge! So huge that he dwarfs every single character on screen. He might be as tall as Voltaire now.
MLGN: Pacific Rim is coming to Mid-Childan theaters soon.
Jupiterian Local
Someone else's comment was that Corona and Caro need to hang out so they can recreate Pacific Rim between them.
Unless that was you and I'm forgetting. 
Yep, that was me. Hakutenou (Lu chan's summon) could work too. They could have a three way brawl.
Makes you wonder if Rio can still judo throw Goliath now.
Also, it would make more sense for Goliath to just step on people now instead of punching them. I figured not many characters can punch through steel, and Goliath's feet is armored, Notice how Fuuka could destroy Goliath's stone fist, but not the steel armor of the disembodied golem hands that Corona used beforehand.
edited 8th Feb '17 12:44:20 PM by Hoki
I don't think Goliath is quite as tall as Voltaire yet. I think that was more a result of the camera showing things from Fuuka's eyes.
The technique for summoning only the fists and levitating them is really neat too, and is something I don't remember ever seeing Corona do before.
Also gives a good justification (besides hang out with friends) for Corona to want to learn some more standard martial arts. Lets her control those giant fists more naturally.
The third Vivid Strike bluray just got released, and with it, the "Episode 5.75" OVA has been subbed.
This one's kinda odd. The lolis are barely even in the OVA, and its instead focused primarily on Nove and Victoria, particularly how they each play the roll of Team Mom in their own way.
New Nanoha Reflection trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrDlvMyAWQ4
Also site updated: http://nanoha.com/
edited 27th Mar '17 12:42:09 PM by APN
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm really liking the look of that trailer.
I'm certainly more hyped for this than I was for either Vivid or Vivid Strike.
This is set in a AU between A's and Strikers if I'm remembering correctly?
"But if that happened, Melia might actually be happy. We can't have that." - Handsome Rob
Yes, it's an AU between A's and Strikers.
Although that AU is explained away as being In Universe docudrama/propaganda films.
Jupiterian Local
I'm not sure that's true in this case. That was the case for the first two movies, but they were remakes of the first series and A's, so they had to explain the discrepancy between the two versions somehow. This is an original story, so no such need there. My understanding that it involves characters originally from the PSP games (which are AU timelines), but it's not simply a movie version of those stories, it's an original plot that involves those characters.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Well, I'm kinda assuming that since the first two are In Universe films, this one is too. Since it's a trilogy (now 4 films), it would be really strange for this one to change that kind of thing.
edited 29th Mar '17 1:31:13 PM by justinkal
Jupiterian Local
My point is that it's also the first Nanoha movie that's an original story instead of an adaptation of a season, so the "it's an in-universe movie" doesn't necessarily hold true.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
And a counterpoint to that. If it isn't an In Universe film, then they can't sell drama CDs that have StrikerS/Vivid/Force/Vivid Strike characters commenting on the film.
edited 29th Mar '17 5:03:50 PM by justinkal
Well, we finally got to see episode 13 of ViViD Strike. Its very much a Where Are They Now? episode, followed by a Beach Episode involving pretty much every single character in ViViD (including all the non-loli characters).
Goddamnnit show! Don't just give us a small snippet of an epic Sieglinde vs Victoria battle, show us the entire thing! Victoria did win though, surprisingly enough.
In the mixed magical under 15 tournament, it seems that Rio and Corona got a draw in the final match. That's a massive accomplishment for Ms. "I'm the only person here who isn't a Special Snowflake' Corona.
Seems that Einhart vacated her throne undefeated (which indirectly means that she defeated Fuuka in their finals match, to nobody's surprise) to move on to the next age bracket (under 19), which made Rinne become under 16 Champion by beating a nobody.
Also, apparently at some point Einhart curbstomped Rinne in a sparing match.
Seems that neither Fuuka nor Rinne know how to swim.
At one point someone is getting attacked by a kraken as a Funny Background Event.
edited 8th Apr '17 8:05:24 AM by justinkal
Jupiterian Local
Ep 13 was fun! They didn't indulge in nearly as much fanservice as they could have for the Beach Episode, which was nice.
Seig vs Victor was nice; interesting to see that Victor won, even if it was only on points. I actually really like Victor as a character, I wish we saw more of her in combat rather than being everybody's mom. I get the impression that she and Seig are even enough that they'd go back and forth with who wins in any given match.
Rio and Corona tying their finals match seems like a cop-out; personally, I'd bet on Corona over Rio. She's the smartest fighter of the Nakajima Gym members, and was able to come up with a strategy that gave Einhard a run for her money.
Einhard remaining champion doesn't actually mean that she beat Fuka. The finals match was for the Winter Cup, it wasn't a title match for the champion title. I do think that Einhard won, but still.
The kraken was being summoned by Fabia, which seems appropriate for a witch-y trick.
edited 8th Apr '17 4:55:21 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
edited 8th Apr '17 5:01:13 PM by justinkal
Jupiterian Local
So, I finally got around to reading Force. tldr review: it was... alright. It wasn't horrifically miserable like I've seen some people treat it, but it definitely had some problems. Overall, there were the bones of a solid story there, even if there were a few problems with the execution.
Spoilers ahead!
Other than that, the R-rated stuff (the mowing down faceless masses, gore-ified injuries, and gratuitous nudity) seemed pointless. I strongly suspect it was an attempt to differentiate it from the more "kiddie" Vivid, but I don't think it was actually necessary in that regard. Force is plenty distinct from Vivid just by the nature of its characters and plot, you don't need to add blood and tits on top of that.
Regarding the Eclipse virus, I sort of feel like they oversold it early in the manga. The whole "you have to murder a bunch of dudes every once in a while or you'll literally die" thing is dumb — and the kicker is that the manga seems to agree, since we never actually see anyone murdering a bunch of people to avoid dying. Treating Eclipse as a Rein Ein style corrupted defense system works well enough by itself — it's sort of like the Zero System from Gundam Wing, where it's essentially a tactical analysis program that messes with people's heads by treating everyone and everything as a threat (and therefore a target), whether you want it to or not. Make it so that it gives people homicidal urges rather than literally "commit mass murder or die" not only makes more sense and is less dumb, but honestly fits with the actual content of the manga better.
The Huckebein are a mixed bag. They have something of the same problem as the Numbers in Strikers, in that there are a lot of them and they aren't particularly well developed. Vey, Cy, and DeVille are all surly and serious. Arn, Curren, and Sonica are all cheerful/playful/un-serious even in serious situations. Fortis and Stella are basically cardboard cutouts without much development at all.
The Grendels are, oddly enough, much better developed despite being introduced much later — which is almost a pity, because I have no idea why they were introduced. Their main service to the plot is to finger Hades as a bad guy, but there are other ways to do that which don't add to the Nanoha franchise's Loads And Loads Of Characters problem. Kurt's special ability is also annoyingly convenient, but more on that later.
Last is Hades. Hades annoys me, and his introduction is the one time I think Force screws up conceptually, not just in execution. He seems to be the intended Big Bad, but the way he's introduced is basically to one-up Curren, whose introduction served was to one-up the rest of the Huckebein, who were themselves introduced to one-up the Riot Force 6 characters. I get that after Strikers they pobably didn't want another largely Non-Action Big Bad, but having Hades turn up the power level yet another notch is just lazy and dumb. Plus his "I'm just an innocent bystander, don't mind me" schtick while he's kicking everyone's ass is basically the same thing as Curren's "I'm going to be a friendly Genki Girl while murdering things" (and it was annoying there, too). I'm honestly not sure how to "fix" Hades, mostly because the manga ends on before his intended role in the story becomes clear.
How does Eclipse infection work, exactly? It's unclear. The TSAB didn't express any concern about getting infected during combat, but we see Eclipse infectees deliberately infecting other people by... randomly blowing stuff up? Touma was infected by direct contact with Lily, and Lily was shown in flashback to be infecting test subjects against her will during flashbacks, but Lily is never treated as an infection vector at any other point. Whether someone is infected or not seems to be basically a matter of plot convenience.
How Eclipse works after infection is also unclear. There's the Driver (the Eclipse infectee), the Divider (the gunblade weapons, which basically act like devices do for mages), that much is pretty clear. Then there's the Reactor, which enables the Driver to transform into full-combat mode (somewhat like a mage using a barrier jacket) but the exact nature of a Reactor is unclear. Is it a separate thing that a Driver has to acquire before they can use, like a Divider? Is it an inherent part of the Driver (like a mage being able to use a barrier jacket even if they don't have a device)? Some Reactors are explicitly separate implements (like Cy's knife), but there's also reference to "internal Reactors". Does that just mean they're Reacting (ie, using a combat transformation) without a Reactor as a separate implement, or does that mean their Reactor is a separate implement, it just fuses with them like a unison device or an auxiliary control type device (eg, like Sacred Heart)?
Then there are Reactor Plugs, which seem to be basically analogous to unison devices in that 1) they're independent sapient beings in and of themselves, 2) they fuse with their Driver to provide a power boost, and 3) they're entirely optional. The only odd thing about them is that Lily, acting as Touma's Reactor Plug, was able to un-fuck Touma's advanced state of infection and return him to a much earlier stage. This seems to imply that Reactor Plugs are the key to curing (or at least controlling) Eclipse infection, especially since Touma hasn't had any problems with murderous rampages since Lily fixed him up. But Reactor Plugs are also apparently a source of Eclipse infection (except when they aren't), and appear to be absurdly rare (we've seen around 20 or so Eclipse infectees, and only two Plugs, which were numbers four and five). Presumably this would be explored later on in the manga, but for now it's a mystery.
And there are also the tomes. We've only seen two of them, Touma's and Curren's, but they seem to be basically the same "Tome of the Silver Cross" (or copies thereof?). They seem to be very much akin to the Book of Darkness, complete with spells it can cast and uncontrollable self-defense programming. Damaging Touma's is part of what helped him regain control after going Zero mode. I think that the tomes are a type of Reactor (given that it takes Lily, a Reactor Plug, to control Touma's) but I'm not 100% clear on that.
And finally, there's "Storage". I have no idea what the hell that means. During the scene where Cy is explaining how Eclipse works to Touma, she says that there are three parts to the system: the Driver, Divider, and Storage. We know that the Driver is the person and Divider is the weapon, but Storage is never explained or mentioned again. I'm not sure if it's a wonky translation, or it refers to the Reactor (then why not call it that?) or the Reactor/Reactor Plug combo (the Tome of the Silver Cross certainly seems to have Book of Darkness style "stored" spells...), or what.
Besides that, some Eclipse infectees have a special power akin to mage Rare Skills or combat cyborg Inherent Skills. Cy can weaken enemy weapons, DeVille can teleport himself around, Sonica has her "fortune telling", Kurt can teleport things to him. I'm not sure all Eclipse infectees have a skill and we just haven't seen most of them, or if only some infectees get them at all, or it requires infection to advance to a certain point, or what. Just one more thing added into the whole Eclipse deal, and this one means that every single Eclipse infectee gets (potentially, at least) their own special snowflake power. Yay.
So yeah, lot of moving parts there, and it's pretty confused as a result. I'm not convinced all of it is necessary, or serves the story well. And that's not even getting into the thing with Hades being "Dominant" and therefore being able to mess with Vey's infection. (He also refers to Vey as a "first generation" infected, which makes me wonder if anyone that Vey infected would be a weaker "second generation" infectee, a la Vampire: The Masquerade style vampires.) Presumably this would be covered later in the manga, but since it's cancelled on indefinite hiatus, chances of us ever seeing what they had planned for that are slim.
Whew. I could keep going, but that's already a massive wall of text, so I'll stop here for now.
edited 21st Apr '17 7:02:51 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Main Character
If Fate and Nanoha are seriously supposed to be ten or eleven in the movie, then I'm a whale.
They don't even look all that much like teenagers to me, just shortish adults with weird faces.
edited 21st Apr '17 6:24:32 PM by Grounder
Jupiterian Local
They're actually supposed to be nine in the movies. Which is indeed very silly, character design aside. Nanoha, like a lot of anime, makes a lot more sense if you add about five years to everyone's "official" age.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Recently, I've been seeing a lot of comparisons between Lyrical Nanoha and Cross Ange, which should be perfect for a fic (already talked about this in another thread). For a list, we have:
- The main characters have the same seiyuus (Fate/Ange and Nanoha/Hilda)
- Yuri subtext
- A magic-wielding society that holds all authority and made to hate war
- Ancient conspiracies within
- Dimension hopping
- Anti-magic wielders labeled as savage, arrogant, anti-social freaks (only that the Eclipse infectees are a more legit case rather than the BS propaganda instituted by Embryo)
- Dragons, nuff said
- Mecha-Mooks (Gadget Drones, the Pyrethroid disc drones, and automated Paramails)
- Mostly female cast
- The villains' side lead by a bishonen mad scientist
New movie CM out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdFL5JZCWG0
Click show more for the updated the staff list, they now list the Materials and Yuri Eberwein in the cast list with their VA's.
Oh boy. The recolours. I'm excited.
Jupiterian Local
Sleepytime Rein remains cutest Rein.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
I'll have to watch that when I get off work.
Edit: Someone who actually has an account on You Tube really should go and clarify his confusion about:
edited 27th Jan '17 3:26:18 PM by justinkal