The sky-high aircraft and aviation thread

@Holland:

-whistles-

That... is certainly a thing.

@Model:

That's pretty cool, actually.

And as for the flying replica, I believe that did indeed come about (I swear I've read about it in Flypast and similar magazines before), although it had to ditch in the North Sea at one point. I think it's been recovered and restored to flying condition (?). Or am I confusing it with an actual FW-190? Agh, my brain!

EDIT:

Oh hey, 4,000 posts. We've come a long way...

edited 13th Jul '12 3:44:48 PM by Flanker66

That is a pretty slick looking model good job.

<bows> Thank you, gentlemen. I still have a few decals to apply, but they're the tiny fiddly ones that you barely see anyway.

Yer, but you know they are there, so it matters.

Does anyone here know anything about Luftwaffe nose-art? Information seems rather scarce. I just acquired a Bf-109, and I want to do something different with it. Not posting this in the modelling thread, because this is more directly relevant to aviation history.

edited 17th Jul '12 1:45:07 PM by pagad

Well you already know the famous nose art for the Bf-109 was that worn by those that were flown by the so-called "Boys from Abbeville" - the yellow noses. I will have a look on that there net thing and see if anything else shows up.

Luftwaffe ace Erich Hartmann had all his Bf 109 aircraft painted like this one, apparently. That guy's site has quite a few artists' renderings of various interesting bf 109 planes.

edited 17th Jul '12 2:48:35 PM by Morven

Oh, some fascinating Hawker Tempests.

Yeah, I knew about the Black Tulip. I also discovered that the tradition of painting shark mouths on noses was actually started by a Bf-110 squadron, which is interesting.

I believe another German ace - who also flew the Bf-109, funnily enough - had all his aircraft painted with a red "tulip". I'm not sure if this had anything to do with Hartmann's aircraft. Unfortunately, I can't remember the man's name - perhaps if I fire up IL-2 it'll jog my memory.

Personally, I really love the tulip nose art.

@Tempests:

Fascinating...

The Tempest was a great plane that didn't really quite get into its stride in WW 2, and subsequently it gets mistaken for the Typhoon just too much.

It was also the predecessor to the amazing Fury and Sea Fury, which were some of the fastest piston-engined fighters ever — their superior aerodynamics proven by being one of the few types consistently raced in the Unlimited class at the Reno air races. Generally those aircraft are fitted with American airlines instead of the Bristol Centaurus they originally came with.

Guys, I know this is sudden, but I wonder if you could share some advice. I want to write a dogfight, chase. But I don't want to make any really glaringly stupid mistakes. Being aviation fans, you've probably heard of clever or nasty tricks that may really improve the struggle.

FYI, it takes place at night, and involves a (here comes the silly part) a big black flying horse being pursued by an anthropomorphic tiger in an Iron Man style suit.

It's an epic fantasy-sci-fi space opera. *shrugs*

Don't underestimate the Pegasus: in the right condition, those can break the sound barrier and even go up to Mach 5 (how? magic).

Otherwise, ha can do all those awesome things all those specialized birds can do, like the peregrin falcon being able to freefall really fucking fast, that one other raptor being able to fly through forests at breakneck speed, and so on... eh, I don't suppose any of you is a huge fan of falconry, right?

Anyway, in spite of the silliness of the premise, I want to write a big juicy dramatic dogfight pursuit in the dead of the night. The black pegasus is much more stealthy and manoeuverable, but the iron man is, well, an Iron Man and can go really fucking fast, and is also ver tough and compact, and much more offensive.

edited 17th Jul '12 4:28:29 PM by TheHandle

The Tempest was like the Infinity +1 Sword of the late-war RAF. Allegedly, Me-262 pilots feared it more than any other Allied fighter.

Was it worth the investment, though, that late in the game?

Also, no advice on "how to write a memorable dogfight"?

edited 18th Jul '12 2:19:50 AM by TheHandle

Read plenty of real-life accounts of dogfights. That's probably the best way. They tend to be short and brutal or degenerate into a 'who can turn tighter' contest.

Any linkies?

Also, what are these: High-Speed Yoyo, Low-Speed Yoyo, Barrel Roll Turn, Split S, and the Immelmann turn.

And I've been checking out stuff about dogfighting. A problem arises: my charcters fight in meelee. There's no shooting involved...

Black Pegasus (let's call him Mustang) has concluded from what just happened (long story) that the Iron Tigress (Rahal) wants to capture him for torture and interrogation, and will go to great lengths to keep him alive, but will also thoroughly beat the shit out of him if she catches him.

Right now he's letting himself fall at terminal velocity after a feint that has left his opponent disoriented and over the cloud cover. His black coat would normally be an advantage in the night, but he knows, given the way that she ambushed him a while ago, that she can sense him in a way that doesn't rely on sight.

The choices he (well, I, really) thought of:

• Luring her into a dogfight and getting her to crash, to capture her and bring her to his superiors (he lives in a militaristic, spartan-like society). He's a nimble, by-the-book, no-nonsense flier who goes for Boring, but Practical. Problem: he doesn't know how good a flier the tigress is.
• Escape. Since she can sense him, and appears to be a spy, the way to shake her off would be to enter a population center: she would not want to be sighted, and, being a tigress in a metal suit, meshing is not an option for her. Plus, he could raise the alarm, and get help.

The tigress, on the other hand, simply wants to bash his head in to trigger a special power. It's him having that potentiality that she can sense at a distance. From her perspective, this will be a "Shaggy Dog" Story: if and when she gets to hit him... nothing will happen. Yet. She's got an Iron Man suit that can turn into a glider when she wants to be silent and stealthy. She is clever and devious, but she is also impulsive and too spontaneous and impatient.

As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense for this pragmatic, quiet kid to challenge an opponent like this to a dogfight, especially since he doesn't know what she's capable of. But my readers keep insisting that I write a fight.

Maybe I can combine both in one? He runs towards the nearest town, she catches up, they do some interesting stunts (again, it's Mr. Boring, but Practical VS Ms. Crazy Awesome), he almost makes it, but she pulls something that he didn't expect, catching him just in time. Then she does the deed, achieves nothing, and goes away, disappointed and furstrated, and leaving a very confused Mustang.

edited 18th Jul '12 3:38:34 AM by TheHandle

Hello, and welcome to the thread, The Handle! You're welcome to stick around once we've helped you out with your questions.

Right, before I begin to answer your questions, let me just lay out a few things you might wish to know.

• Speed is life in a dogfight: a slow opponent is usually a dead opponent, although skill can figure into it just as much as performance. You may hear a lot of references to energy in more modern dogfighting manuals, which is basically an idea (though this might be inaccurate) of how fast an opponent is. Generally, a quick enemy has a lot of energy while one on the verge of a stall has little.
• There is no "silver bullet" in terms of optimal manoeuvres. Each one can be defeated if you react intelligently, and none of them can cover every situation.
  • As a corollary, dogfighting isn't stationary like chess. You don't do something and then wait for your enemy's reaction. Rather, manoeuvres may be executed seamlessly in response to changing conditions. Dogfights are extremely fluid, and things may change in a millisecond!
• As Sabre's Edge mentioned above, usually pilots jockey for any advantage they can get over an opponent before engaging - be it altitude, airspeed, or good old fashioned surprise. Many aircraft have been shot down without ever seeing their attacker, although I wager this would make for a boring story in this case!
• A very simplified way to think of manoeuvering in aerial combat is that almost every course of action leads to a trade-off between speed and altitude. For example, a steep descent trades off altitude for speed, whereas a climb trades off speed for altitude. You will pretty much never gain speed and altitude, but it's certainly possible to lose both (and quite easily at that).
• If two aircraft engage a single target, they may make use of split plane manoeuvring. That is, one will manoeuvre in the target's plane, while the other manoeuvres in the "unused" plane. This makes things very hard for the target, as they may make themselves vulnerable to one aircraft if they successfully counter the attacks of the other.
• Dogfights are usually quick, aggressive affairs; it is rare for one to drag out. Usually, aerial combat favours more aggressive thinking, although a more patient and analytical opponent can win quite handily.
• One of the all-important aspects of a dogfight is the "merge" i.e. when the opponents make their first pass at each other. A lot can be decided in those short few seconds, and it's undoubtedly one of the more dangerous parts of a dogfight (since both your and their weapons are pointed at each other, and you usually present a nice target and vice-versa).

This manoeuvre is usually just called the "High Yo-yo" (the other is called the Low Yo-yo). Now, these two are something that I have to admit I kind of struggle to grasp, though I'll try my best.

The high yo-yo is a BFM (Basic Fighter Manoeuvre) that aims to slow a fast moving attacker. When executed well, it is very challenging to handle. First, the pilot reduces the steepness of his turn and breaks into a climbing turn, changing the plane in which he is manoeuvring. As he does so, he then steepens the turn, climbing above his foe. In the process he ends up losing speed (preventing an overshoot) and this steepens his turn (the slower you are, the more tightly you can turn... up to a certain point, naturally). Now he can get in behind his opponent (descending in the process to recoup his lost speed) and attack.◊

A High Yo-yo can be used defensively as well, though it's a tad more complex.

Another handy manoeuvre, the Low Yo-yo trades altitude for speed. I... uh... have no idea how to describe this, so you'll need to refer to this handy-dandy diagram instead.◊ Sorry, but as I said I kind of struggle to grasp the high and low yo-yos.

Never heard of a barrel roll turn, but I have heard of a barrel roll.

The basic idea is to force an enemy to overshoot the aircraft, although the attacker can also use a barrel roll to prevent an overshoot. The technique sheds a lot of energy (and speed). It's fairly easy to execute, but it's hard to describe (perhaps one of my comrades can help).

There's also the high G barrel roll, which is used in a last ditch attempt to prevent an attacker from being able to fire on the defender. Basically, the throttle is closed (i.e. reduced to idle), speed brakes (or any other method of spoiling the airflow) are deployed, and the pilot uses very hard control inputs to cause a significant decrease in airspeed (and hopefully force the attacker to overshoot).

The Split S is a very simple manoeuvre to execute, and it trades off altitude for airspeed as well as a reversal of direction. It can be used to disengage from a fight or to make a pass with guns against a lower altitude but quicker opponent flying in the opposite direction. However, it's not particularly viable in combat as it sacrifices some energy.

To execute, you execute a half roll, pull back on the stick to undertake a half-loop, and then you exit the manoeuvre.◊

An Immelman is basically a Split S but ascending rather than descending. It loses speed for altitude, but similarly changes direction. It is a good offensive manoeuvre for reasons outlined in the section about the Split S, but it makes a poor defensive one due to loss of speed.

Just as an aside, one visually exciting (if undesirable) manoeuvre is the Rolling Scissors◊. It usually occurs when two aircraft are trying to hit each other, but neither can gain an advantage (and for whatever reason they cannot climb or descend). The two aircraft execute a series of barrel rolls, each bleeding off energy in hopes that their opponent will overshoot and expose themselves. Usually, the aircraft with the tighter turning circle will win.

The main effect that has is that it forces the opponents to get much, much closer than normal. Depending on how things go, they might also end up losing a lot of altitude as they tangle if they are in contact for significant periods of time.

Dogfighting tactics still apply, it's merely more difficult to get an actual hit on the opponent.

The latter character is at a disadvantage - no matter what, you generally don't want to lose your opponent, no matter what happens. If you do, you might be surprised as they re-emerge to fight you again.

However, a descent favours Rahal. Presumably, her suit makes her heavier than Mustang, so she would be able to descend more quickly than him (Zeroes found this out the hard way when duking it out with Wildcats and Hellcats). Rather, he might wish to climb (heavier = higher stalling speed if all else is equal, so she can't follow him quite as well if he climbs). But this is all predicated on her detecting him.

If they fight at low level, there might be an extra element of danger (and therefore excitement) as they whip past the trees and any other obstacles present. You may wish to emphasise the speeds at which they are going, as well as the visceral, intense nature of aerial combat.

Since Mustang can do things like the aforementioned birds, he's got a definite manoeuverability advantage, although he must be careful in case he makes himself a sitting duck.

If you'd like to learn more, read up on real life dogfights (as Inverurie Jones said) and perhaps consult the Dicta Boelcke (compiled by one of the first aces during WWI) and Wikipedia's page on Basic Fighter Manoeuvres. Flight sims are another wonderful source of information, though I doubt you'll want to buy one for the express purpose of research. Another possibility is looking up the programme Dogfights, which covered various real life dogfights.

I hope all of this helped. Don't be afraid to ask more questions if you're curious! And since I'm a nosy wee bugger, mind providing a link or something?

So. The logical choice would then be to take advantage of his current speed and make a U-Turn and try to pounce on her from under the clouds? But he knows she can detect him, and he can't see through the clouds, so she might not be in the place he left her. Plus, clouds shift..

Maybe keep falling and use the innate manoeverability to dodge her incoming Flying Brick attack, so that the position he stands in compares him superior?

Thank you for being so welcoming.

No problem! I like to be as helpful as possible, and since we don't really get too many visitors I figure that we should be especially nice.

Hm... well, if he was going to ascend back toward the clouds, I imagine that he may not simply go into a vertical climb (no matter how quickly you're going a vertical climb causes a lot of speed to bleed off). Rather, he might enter a climbing turn - it'd make it easier to manoeuvre if he suddenly comes under attack, and it hopefully shouldn't make his speed suffer as much.

The fact that she can sense him kind of makes things difficult - in another situation it'd be perfectly legitimate to hide underneath (or in) cloud cover, but the sensing renders that moot. To go off on a little tangent, a mission known as an Ambush Close Air Patrol might be used. Older, less capable aircraft may hide on one side of a mountain (which obviously blocks radar) at low altitude and wait for enemies to blunder right into them. Once they do so, they go ahead and attack, negating the enemy's technological and speed advantage because of how close they are. Perhaps something similar might be possible here?

As for the other option, that's certainly viable. He just has to be quick on the mark and have his head on a swivel (to be fair, that's true of all dogfights). And, naturally, he needs to make sure that he doesn't get too low, either.

You mentioned the possibility of raising the alarm - are there any friendly forces in the area? If so, what are they?

Of course, you may want the tiger to win (I'm not 100% clear on this, but it seems you want Mustang to win, so naturally I'm trying to provide ideas geared toward that), so that may not be an option.

So, if I'm reading this right. Essentially the tiger has radar while the pegasus doesn't?

I've been doing a bit of research myself — although I'm focusing more on large-scale modern combat operations and how modern comms work — does anyone have an example of link 16/22 text communication?

Incidentially — doesn't the tail of the F-35 have a little of the de Havilland twin-boom in it?

Well, I want Mustang to show off that he's a very good student in Flight School. More than he would be if he were merely trying to be excellent, because he goes out of his way to be precisely average. So, he knows his theory, he's done his excercises, practiced his manoevers. At this point, the reflexes are really hardwired. But he has no passion for the stuff, he just does as he's told. As such, he lacks creativity and out-of-the-box thinking. I want him to show off his competence, and, for a while, come out on top. But then I want Rahal to do something completely out of the blue, like something batshit insane, that would secure a last-minute victory for her before he manages to reach safety.

^^^That's what I'm reading it effectively as. Also, welcome!

^^I don't really know anything about those systems, sorry.

I wouldn't call the F-35's tail a true "twin boom" design; it's much too solid in my opinion.

^Hm... that's kind of a tall order. Problem is, most dogfighting techniques are geared toward practicality. Only thing I can think of is that Mustang is thinking inside of the box so much that he doesn't anticipate an unexpected manoeuvre. Alternatively, his opponent angles herself in such a way that she makes several head-on passes, and eventually Mustang blinks first and gets hit for his trouble.

Of course, there are several techniques (such as the bracket and champagne) that can be used in a head on pass, so it may not be solely "fly directly at your opponent").

I know it isn't a twin-boom design, but you can see the influence there, can't you? I wonder if that was due to the British input into the project...