The Military Thread

The use of regular NCO's in AIT was to free up the drill sergeants for Basic Combat Training.

The problem was the lack of discipline. Really they had to be smoked just like in basic. The worst were the 68W (medic) dropouts. They spent 6 months in that AIT-failed the final exam and got force reclassed to 14E (my MOS). They were brats in need of a good smoke session.

I'm glad that future recruits will get to know the front leaning rest from the 1st day of basic until they graduate Advanced Individual Training.

BBC news reports on statement regarding what happened in the ICC:

I'm not sure if it really counts, but my ROKA basic had ROKA drill instructors (mostly PFC corporals), but my KATUSA Training Academy - if that counts as AIT - had US Army drill sergeants shouting at us.

Ah, man. The "instructors" at ROKA basic were a bunch of scrawny PFC and corporals most of whom I probably could have snapped in two. But US Army instructors? Goddamn they actually scared me at times. Well, the fear soon turned to hatred but that's another story.

Oh yeah, speaking of which, I just got promoted to a corporal. Awwwwyeeeeaaahhhh.

I get the feeling that if you end up hating the drill instructor, something has gone wrong.

It's not like being a Sith where the hate for your overseer makes you stronger.

Update from The Hague:

Slobodan Praljak's conviction was still upheld despite the suicide. He died at the hospital and the Politie are investigating who helped him get the poison and if someone should be held accountable for the lapses in security.

Mostar is having masses in honor of his death.

edited 30th Nov '17 2:06:37 AM by Ominae

Just reminds me of the dreamy comment from Sergeant Colon in Discworld, reminiscing about his old drill sergeant. And how, after all that, how they all came together.... and he and the lads, the met him in the pub...

And kicked seven shades of hell out of him.

Proper team building.

The concept of drill sergeants doesn't exist here, but certain instructors can be similar. Depends where you serve.

There are some devious fuckers who do this. But in general they know when not to push it.

edited 30th Nov '17 2:24:32 AM by TerminusEst

My own Staff Sergeant at Sandhurst (You get two over the three terms. One only for one term, for a GOOD reason) was an ARSEHOLE.

But he was supposed to be. The first instructors you have are there to give you the WORST of the worst. 3 Am reveille. Pints of water, 50 push ups, then a nice jog round New College in November.

Five uniform changes in 30 minutes, then critique on the fact your bulled boots are scuffed.

Constant applied pressure.

We hated him. He legitimately hated ME specifically. I was the one he singled out. But, when I looked back, it was to ensure the rest of the platoon rallied around, supported each other.

At the end of the term, my god... we went for a beer, he shook my hand and said "I hated you at first, but you just never stopped. And best of luck." And he was a strong willed, Scottish Infantryman with a skin head. But ultimately, it's an act to reinforce a point. Mostly.

If you can get THOSE types, you're fine. The sadistic bastards, on the other hand... saw a few of those in the Regular army outside of training. And a couple inside Sandhurst too. But the good ones are a fantastic binding force.

There was one year the new recruits in the company I was in (very briefly), got the worst possible treatment out of sheer spite. The amount of injuries and sick leave the NCO's managed to cause through "discipline" was pretty impressive. Completely destroyed unit morale for that year. It got the place under scrutiny and it was cleaned up very quickly from what I understand. This was before I was there.

On a general note, the nickname for the company was (roughly translated) "Bandit Company", the bane of the military police and the closest thing you get for a foreign legion in these parts. During the tenure of one Captain "Nemo", the place was notorious for its tight discipline and the high requirements set on the company NCO's and reserve officer candidates. Unit culture was probably the reason for a lot of things.

One thing I learned is that I genuinely hate being around people longer than a few days.

edited 30th Nov '17 4:19:41 AM by TerminusEst

I can sympathise. The Army really reinforced my misanthropy and introvert tendencies for a few years. The officer corp reduced my patience as well... but that's the problem with an Army that has a rose tinted view of itself.

I will say that you need to balance the hardcore tradition and drive in training against the human element of understanding that they're still PEOPLE.

IMHO, training that causes you to hate the very people you may end up depending on to survive in combat situations probably needs to be revised.

Things have changed quite a bit. It's mostly individuals that cause the problems now rather than any systemic issue. Captain "Nemo" was an example. He built a very effective urban warfare unit, but it came with a certain level of notoriety.

edited 30th Nov '17 5:19:44 AM by TerminusEst

In that case, the only revision needed is to make sure people like that don't get to become instructors in the first place. Or at least, remove them asap.

My own drill sergeant was a decent guy, firm but fair. He pushed us hard, but he wasn't an asshole about it. If he was clearly and demonstrably in the wrong, he'd admit it and apologize.

But there were a couple of drill sergeants in our company who were pure shitbags. One was so bad, somebody put rat poison in his coffee. He had to go to the hospital and have his stomach pumped.

It's official the Nordic Combat Uniform System is becoming a reality. The first official procurement declarations came out today from Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway.

Air Force has Military Training Instructors (the gentlemen with the big hats) at Basic, but not at Technical School. How much good or bad this affects our discipline, dunno, never saw it any other way. We had folks who would do stupid shit like get high on prescription medicine in tech school, but then that happened at Basic from time to time too. Might as well get those guys out before they hit the Operational Air Force either way.

Funny thing with the MT Is when I was in, they couldn't lay hands on you or swear at you. So they'd find very creative ways to express themselves without doing those things, like holding their hand a fraction of an inch from your face while glaring, or making emphatic karate chop motions at your face (also not allowed to point at you; too confrontational), and using rather interesting expressions like "What the piss, trainee?! Get over here, Smart One!"

Mind you, even then, it turned out there was a huge problem with sexual assault and rape regarding those guys at the time. Go fucking figure.

My only experiences with the Drill Instructors at an AIT base was when I was assigned to tech school at a base that also had Army students (before I got reclassed to Civil Engineering). I recall running into one at a coffee shop, and instinctively snapping out "Good morning, ma'am!", to which she cheerfully replied with a "Good morning, Airman!" The other occassion was when I was walking towards a gaggle of soldiers, including one Drill, who started maneuvering so I could see the Captain walking behind her, meaning I didn't get too distracted by the hat to see the brass and salute.

So I mean, drill sergeants aren't stressful at all, as long as you're not their cats to herd.

Keeping an eye on the Praljak case:

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-42186725/jeremy-bowen-why-i-testified-against-praljak

BBC's Jeremy Bowen testified against him back when he reported his action in Mostar.

A good Drill shouldn't make you despise them or life because of their wanton cruelty. They should push you hard and cross boundaries. They should help breakdown your previously held civilian habits and ideas about working as a team. They should punish utter stupidity. But all of it should be for a purpose to actually work towards transforming the individual into a member of the US military. At some point you should have a naturally occurring epiphany of what is going on and at that point you would normally hate them less, fear them less, but respect them more and pay much more attention. There should be some notable lessening on the BS as you get your feet under you and you all focus on training.

What these wack jobs we keep letting do this shit are doing is just using their position to justify tormenting people at their mercy. There is simply nothing acceptable about it.

I think the only reason I really hated (some of) the instructors is because of the repeated collective punishments.

I mean, look, I can understand a squad being punished for one person's mistake, or even a whole platoon.

But for fuck's sake, I just couldn't comprehend why we had to be punished for something an entirely different platoon did.

What were we even supposed to do, go to the other platoon, find the offending member, and lynch him or something?

Though it's illegal nowadays, there was a time when people would give the offenders a "blanket party".

Our drill sergeants in Basic Combat Training were artists with their "cruelty":

• A Genghis gambit when there was a dispute over who would lead the platoon. When one recruit tried to undermine the "platoon guide" (recruit who leads the platoon in exercises and helps the drills), our "kill hat" smoked the dog piss out of us and openly told us that he wanted us to hate him instead. He told us that the recruit trying to screw with the recruit leadership can tell us in person, but to keep order the entire platoon would be punished.
  • It worked, the asshole backed off and we didn't fuck with him.

• The one idiot who had a real beef with another recruit when he was caught trying to grope a female? He was kept away from the platoon until his last days (he spent some time in the stockade) and then he was sent home. We never had to deal with him.

• The one drill who I hated only messed with me a few times and honestly I barely remember him. (He used to sing and whistle both gospels and opera just for fun).

• The rest of basic was a blur of qualification, drill and ceremonies and graduation.

• AIT wasn't all that bad. Really it was a male recruit who had issues with females in the Army and another female who just hated my guts. One got kicked out of the Army in AIT, the other got kicked out for drugs/domestic violence his first 6 months at the line unit.
  • The drills were mostly professional. One was a bit chummy with some of the older recruits and another drill clearly spent too much time on the trail but never took it out on us.

The drill sergeants is not your friend. Nor is he/she supposed to be a sadist.

The pushups, the 2 am fire guard, the getting yelled at - it's all about the change from civilian to soldier.

The brutal hazing belongs in the past.

It's true - when I was at my line units and trying to remember some soldierly task - there was the voice of my drill sergeant in the back of my head as I then remembered what the hell I was supposed to be doing.

And that was it. It wasn't cruelty it was instilling discipline. He only overstepped once but was brought back in line SHARPLY by the Commandant, which was good.

That was why there's a policy to cycle Platoon Captain and Sergeant at Sandhurst - to ensure that the frustrations that naturally develop during the hard phase aren't carried over into the more technical and strategic terms. The instructors are hard, but don't do cartoonish stereotype like in the first term.

Granted, it's not always 100% effective and you get the bad apples, but overall the institution is good at rooting them out.

What's funny is, the last time I recall someone else's voice telling me to use the force perform a task in a particular way during a stressful situation, it was some random guy in my Civil Air Patrol squadron who had said "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast", evidently something he picked up five lifetimes ago when he was in the Marines.

It's really kind of a brilliant concept when you're trying to do some mildly fiddly task like clearing a misfire on the firing range.

edited 1st Dec '17 4:08:25 PM by AFP

I like it. It's like a Koan.

EDIT: So my youtube came up with this while I was napping.

I like how he sounds. He's very soothing. Makes it all sound so professional and competent. Very big on symbols. Very big on the USMC's perceived and reputed awesomeness. If I hadn't read Terminal Lance, I would even believe him. It's especially funny when he talks about Iraq and what a big success it was.

Is he the guy Bard Pitt modeled himself after in War Machine, or do all four-star Corspmen look and act like this?

edited 2nd Dec '17 1:26:42 PM by TheHandle