Team 8

If you're willing to elaborate, for the sake of my own curiosity, what is it about the prose that bothers you? The Gratuitous Japanese? Is the prose dry? I have a hard time grasping "bad prose/dry writing" unless there's a number of glaring mechanical issues or an overuse of adverbs.

See that's what I thought. I came to the conclusion that it's just done subtly, with little jabs and oddly-phrased paragraphs. It's just enough ribbing not to be automatically labeled bashing. I think someone pulled the fire alarm and said the author was bashing Sasuke, so then we started getting a little less of the "Anti-Sasuke" perspective. I've charted it out:

It all starts when Kurenai calls Sasuke a spoiled brat after presumably watching the kid for less than twenty four hours and not sharing a single conversation with him. She asserts this very matter-of-factly in the first chapter.

Then came the matter of Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto still has some hidden level of respect for the guy, knowing that they had similar family situations. In this fic, Naruto only expresses contempt for the guy from the get-go. Right from the first chapter, he's calling him "Sasuke-teme", which as I understand is a title commonly misued by fan fiction and doesn't actually mean what it's commonly used for. I find it hard to believe no one explained this to the author. This fic came out in 2008, somebody must have known that "teme" doesn't mean what people like to think it means. The author stringently places that label on Sasuke.

Naruto's view of Sasuke is virtually unchallenged for most of the fic, given that in the academy, at worst, Sasuke thinks little of him because of how insignificant Naruto's skills were back then. Sasuke is a 'teme', because Naruto thinks he is a 'teme', and nothing disputes this for some while.

12-year olds calling each other 'bastard' is just odd to me.

Naruto's introduction speech to Team 8?

Yeah, and this is Naruto when he's not sitting right next to the guy. So we get the point reinforced that Sasuke is a stuck-up bastard who isn't very good at avoiding ambushes and would be too arrogant to admit that Naruto actually got the jump on him.

From Kurenai's perspective:

So, Sasuke has something to prove. And Naruto doesn't have anything to prove to anyone? Lee and Hinata don't have anything to prove. Kurenai's analysis at this part equates to her saying: Sasuke is at the top of the class because he's an overachiever. The academy favors him over Naruto.

...so naturally Sasuke's entrance disturbs Naruto's introspective moment. Somehow, this genin launches a killing intent at Naruto, who he hates so intensely. Gee, did any genin show this during Part I, like, at all? Even assuming Sasuke learned of it, we do realize that Killing Intent is enough to make someone actually want to kill themselves?

On the other hand, the way Sasuke behaved himself in this scene I can buy. Fine, Naruto doesn't like him, at least Sasuke doesn't shout "FIGHT ME" before getting his butt handed to him by Observative Calm Patient!Naruto.

In fact, Sasuke getting defended by Sakura like that - works. I can buy it, because they weren't scolded in the same way as canon, so they still have little respect for Naruto.

At one point, Guy goes on a spiel about how Sasuke and Neji are 'lesser' geniuses than Lee. This isn't out-of-character, but the author has picked another person to reinforce the idea that Sasuke really isn't so special, the guy we know is very stuck-up, willing to launch suicidal-thought-inducing auras at people he doesn't like, is a spoiled brat - according to Kurenai - and lacks an imagination - according to Naruto.

Might I digress here - Naruto makes an effort to tolerate and understand Shino and Hinata. This is understandable, since he acknowledges that they don't make fun of him or get angry at him.

I know fan fic writers tend to do this, but to my knowledge, addressing someone by their last name is rather rude. Notice Kurenai never anywhere else in the fic addresses anyone else as "Hyuga, Uzumaki, Aburame, Umino, or Sarutobi". Here, she addresses Sasuke in a curt manner.

So... when did Naruto figure out this part of Sasuke's personality? After all, they weren't on any missions together. Alright, so Naruto can piece together that Sasuke "acts cool" and wouldn't care about his team mates, so that makes him an idiot then, on top of being a spoiled brat, unimaginative, arrogant, too cool for school, a Killing Intent-using bastard who isn't really a genius.

Another joke at the tumorous mass that is the Uchiha's expense. Granted, clever, but I guess Kurenai filled Naruto in on the Uchiha clan at some point. Yes, Naruto can make fun of the Uchiha for being... slaughtered... and then be so understanding of Hinata's family situation later on.

To be fair though, Naruto views the Hyuga as a bunch of a-holes (since they apparently are in this world). Narrativewise, hey, we made fun of the Uchiha!

Does Naruto seriously refer to Sasuke as a "bastard" with his every waking thought? Narrativewise, Sasuke, you bastard, for the umpteenth time!

Right at the start of the chapter, oh look, we made fun of Sasuke and that silly team he was on in canon.

We finally get a reprieve and an actual serious look at what Sasuke and his ninja pals have been doing in Chapter 10. Naruto hears about the failed mission in Wave and, to his credit, decides that bragging about Team 8's previous mission would be harsh. Team 7 had to witness someone get killed.

Then we go to Chapter 13.

I've read criticism over how Sasuke copied Rock Lee's speed with his Sharingan. Alright, at least Sasuke did that with his own copy power. Evidently, Naruto can just as quickly reach Rock Lee's level of speed within the time period (enough to knock Sasuke out in one punch). So, assuming this makes sense, most of Sasuke's actions in this battle that, in canon, was "his Character Development battle", are superceded by Naruto and Shino being awesome.

Of course, Team 8 just so happened to run across Team 7, allowing them to enter and "improve" the stakes against Orochimaru, despite the fact that Team 8 wasn't shown being anywhere near them in canon. The fight with Orochimaru serves to show how Team 8 functions in combat, and to overshadow Team 7. Stations of the Canon also.

To be fair, Team 8 doesn't fare much better than Team 7 did, at least, so it's not like the author was going "Oh ho, look how much better I/Kurenai taught her students, because they can actually handle themselves against Orochimaru!"

In fact, it fits Shino's character to join Sakura in preparing traps around the campsite. Let's fast-forward here. Sasuke wakes up after Orochimaru bit him, Naruto does too.

Naruto uses the DEMONIC power stored up inside of him to DESTROY the Cursed Seal, one-upping Sasuke again. Sasuke, however, has a reaction similar to what happens in canon and triggers the Seal. The author later complains about other people complaining that he isn't adhering to canon - he doesn't mind sticking in the parts of canon that make Sasuke look bad.

Naruto powers up and HIS flame is bigger than Sasuke. Does This Remind You of Anything?

Okay, yeah, Sasuke does look monstrous in Cursed Seal Mode. It's his Start of Darkness. So like... do we get any detail about the fangs, the red eyes, or the claws that appear on Naruto when he uses the Nine-Tails chakra? Seriously, read the manga, Naruto looks pretty damn SCARY when he uses that chakra (and badass). Or it is because we're reading from Hinata's perspective when this happens, and she can't see Naruto in a negative fashion? She has the BYAKUGAN, she can actually SEE Naruto's chakra coils and the demonic energy flowing through them.

Naru Hina. Naruto is such a cuddly teddybear compared to Sasuke. Sasuke speaks in an eerie voice. Naruto, while accessing demonic chakra, "oh so gently" touches Hinata and speaks in a "far too calm" voice. Have we EVER heard Naruto speak in a calm voice in the middle of battle?

This doesn't even happen in canon. Naruto is okay with KO'ing people, but hey, Sasuke is in CS mode, so why not have him kill someone. So now he's an unimaginative, death-upon-thee-wishing, spoiled brat, who has been infected with something that makes him even darker and more merciless than before. And let's not ignore the garbled dialogue here - "Now I can truly be an avenger."

Let's remember, Naruto is more observant in this fic. He's skilled at reading people. So, it makes sense for the narrative to mention that Sasuke looks "off", and no one bats an eye at Naruto using visible red chakra. But remember, Sasuke looks off.

Once again, Naruto just happens to know Sasuke so well that he knows Sasuke would need to be fooled into accepting help. Sasuke isn't quite at the "shut up, I'm more special than you!" point in his character yet.

And finally...

See, at one point during the Orochimaru fight, Sasuke asks if they should bury Naruto or Hinata. So we went from him understanding the severity of the battle to "oh, I hope your stronger than your pathetic friend who almost died not five minutes ago."

The TV Tropes page even says "What an Idiot"? But WHY is Sasuke being an idiot here? Certainly, he doesn't act that way in canon, at this point.

But it all serves to be hilarious as Naruto knocks him out in a single punch. Yippee. So any positive mention of Sasuke is now overwritten. He is unimaginative, hostile, a dolt, insensitive, not as talented as everyone thinks, and now we have physical evidence to prove it.

Honorable mention goes to Sasuke's fan club. Now, it's PRETTY clear that the author and most Naruto fans don't approve of the "shallow band of prepubescent girls who flock around Sasuke". So, fangirls/idol worship is bad, right? Shino CAPITULATES on how stupid the fanclub is at one point.

Yet Shino's mother, who is far more involved with Shino here than in canon, is happy when Shino competes in the Chunin Exams and begins to develop his own fanclub. Narrativewise, this is portrayed positively and is never referenced again.

edited 27th Jul '13 12:59:29 PM by FOFD

If it remains as things stand, then it's a bash of Hiashi. Which is a flaw, but one I'm able to ignore. Bashing is a common element of terrible fics, but not necessarily terrible on its own.

Well, I've started my liveblog and much like Scorpio Rat, I find myself exhausted by the long chapters and forced to split them. I sort of cheated and read some of his first, but in the future, I will do my best to keep away from a reading his liveblog on a chapter until I finish mine.

I appreciate how in-depth you went into the treatment of Sasuke's character.

And Gratuitous Japanese aside, I don't really know what it was about the prose that bothered me (been a while since I read it). I just remember noticing, then telling myself to ignore it because it was so popular.

How is bashing not terrible? I'm not saying it will make a work terrible, but I do think the bashing itself is always terrible if it's played seriously.

edited 26th Jul '13 9:26:16 PM by Saiga

Thank god I wasn't the only one bothered by Hinata's wangsting. That was getting ridiculous.

Bashing, in and of itself, isn't a good thing. But playing a character as more antagonistic than they were in canon, for a well-defined reason or as part of the premise of an AU, isn't necessarily bashing. You do need antagonists, and playing around with novel combinations is why we read and/or write fanfic. If Team 8 was left as it currently stands, it would be a bash of Hiashi, as I read it, though not an egregious one; if it does transpire that Hiashi's greater eviltude is due to a realistic past nail, I would excuse it. (That said, I don't hold out significant hope for that; per his other fics, the author does rather like portraying unsympathetic protagonist-faction characters as Even More Unsympathetic, e.g. Snape in Nightmares.)

Fuck, don't get me started on NoFP Snape. I admit the Legilimency plothole is an actual plothole to a greater or lesser extent, but Jesus, why does Snape suddenly have to be incompetent just because the author doesn't like him? No one can hate Snape as much as Rowling, and she didn't make him incompetent.

Semi-off topic but a while ago I think on the WMG page for NoFP I came to the conclusion that the only way to redeem the characterization of Snape in that is to say he was intentionally being incompetent at Dumbledore's request as part of his task as a spy (and to go undercover as part of Durmstrang). Granted the story started before the seventh book was released and those revelations never really got into that story so who knows how or if it'll ever be resolved.

Anyway the stories the author writes in my opinion are good, but have problems with age. I'll accept characterization changes if it's ever revealed what the nail in the story is (or if there is one in NoFP's case).

Alright, finished my chapter 1 review. I'll read chapter 2 tomorrow...or tonight. Am I making good points, or should I go a little deeper?

saltfishfin's is linked here but... ah, there's a link.

edited 27th Jul '13 2:48:02 PM by FOFD

[1]

I read the first/second parts of it yesterday, I'll finish it now and leave my thoughts in the comments.

I peeked through the first two as well, haven't finished them yet.

Alright, finished with my Chapter 1 Liveblog.

You know, now that I think about it, the color orange has another meaning too. It's a warning of danger, so Naruto could be subtly implying that he's a dangerous ninja.

Holy frak, Chapter 22 has been posted.

Despite my dislike of certain plot elements and characterizations, and my distaste for the story's overly generous readership, I have to admit I was getting anxious to see it continue.

If I may be so provokingly critical, it seems that the Nail involving Kurenai is finally going to be explained. Was done in a bit of a hurry, I kind of anticipated that.

...need to stop troping and finish reading.

Well, one point I have to give the author is that we're not having this one-sided Kurenai is always right perspective... it only took her death, but still, it counts.

edited 6th Sep '13 4:54:41 PM by FOFD

Well, tell me if it starts to make sense now.

HOLY SHIT IT ACTUALLY UPDATED?!

Hell has frozen over.

I'll read it soon. Despite not liking it very much, it was still my very first Nardo fanfiction and I want to see how it continues.

edited 6th Sep '13 5:22:38 PM by kay4today

To be fair, I think I felt a bit of a chill too when I saw Chapter 22 posted. Spoilers, hint hint.

So, for real, Kurenai isn't always right according to the narrative anymore. That is a definite plus.

The Nail has been... somewhat explained... rather, we've gotten Kurenai's side of her Broken Bird story. Now, let's not let it slip that Hiashi being a wife-beater still doesn't make any sense so that someone can point this out to the author so that he can retcon it and write off any criticism as part of his intended storyline all along, but Kurenai's side/backdoor plot does add up... for her characterization at least.

Without Kurenai, I'm actually enjoying this fic a lot more. Writing's good, I stumble upon a new word every now and then, Naruto's been developed a (guess) more introspective person, Hinata's developed self-worth, and Shino... has skills that he shouldn't have but for the sake of fanon let's roll with that... Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Iruka are each capable of getting things done and have become instantly more likable to me than Kurenai.

Boo. Hiss. Kurenai.

The plot didn't move much, and until the next chapter says yes or no, the Sasuke Retrieval seems to have disappeared. It wasn't really clarified if Sasuke's seal was removed or not. Also, I kind of feel like there was an info dump on Kurenai's past, like after so much audience complaint, there it is. Then again, it was left in her will, so this works.

edited 6th Sep '13 8:20:42 PM by FOFD

I have to say, I certainly wasn't expecting to see that story update in my e-mail. 2006 was so long ago.

... Who is this "Aldraia" that is now working at Ichiraku's? A pre-existing character from some other work?

A turtle who is called "Friend of All Children" and is apparently the chief/strongest of the turtle summons? Oh ho ho ho ho ho, is this what I think it is?

Well, IIRC Sasuke has not been put in the same set of circumstances that drove him to seek out Orochimaru in canon.

The "Aldraia" reference lost me, so I had to go and check. I think it's somebody on the Team 8 forum.

Oh, so that's what "Friend of All Children" was referencing.

As for Sasuke, I think he still has forces acting upon him that would lead him to Orochimaru: his brother showed up looking for Naruto, he lost to Naruto in a battle of strength (more like a knockout really), and the Sound Four could still infiltrate the village to try and persuade him like they did in canon.

edited 8th Sep '13 3:16:11 PM by FOFD

wrong thread.

yeah...

edited 8th Sep '13 3:26:12 PM by ScorpioRat

Wrong thread, methinks.

I could've sworn the author has explained in the footnote of some chapter how is it that Sasuke isn't so guaranteed to defect from Konoha anymore, despite him still seeking out Itachi for revenge and other stuff. I think one point was how the confrontation with Itachi had gone differently from canon: He worked with Naruto and Shino against him, and recognized that Naruto now has a personal beef with Itachi that is quite similar to his own (namely, revenge for Kurenai's murder).