A Song Of Ice And Fire

X25: A lesser story like, say, the TV adaptation? The one that also has the Mannis as a religious fanatic that has people set on fire just 'cause?

X8: Yeah, once you leave the Free Cities Essosi worldbuilding is pretty bad. Not like the worldbuilding for the Iron Islands is significantly less implausible.

edited 19th Sep '14 10:28:55 PM by Bonerfart

On the topic of moral ambiguity, do people hate the Starks? I was reading a topic elsewhere about which "House" people would support and there were a lot of people saying the Starks wee idiots.

Granted, 90% of the first book so far has been Stark-centric but it seems to me that Ned and Jon and Rob and Bran are all way nobler than everyone else combined x 100. Everyone else may be interesting to a point but likable or noble? Ehhhh.

Then again Jaime "Attempted Child Murderer" Lannister seems to b e alot of people's favorite character so what do I know.

EDIT:

I've seen people who think Tywin Lannister is respectable. Yeah, fuck them. I just got Tyrion's backstory about his "wife." I hope Tywin dies a slow, painful death. There is nothing respectable about a monster like that.

edited 21st Sep '14 7:15:15 AM by Nikkolas

In Grrm's Crapsack World, idealism and pragmatism both lead to awful consequences.

Starks: Ned, Catelyn, and Snasa do cause a lot of trouble, but they get a lot of viewpoint chapters, so I'm not sure how many readers hate them - probably some. It's hard to imagine hating any other Starks, but probably somebody does.

Tywin: Unfortunately, people laughing at Lannisters, especially when prostitutes are involved are Tywins Berserk Button, which still leaves Tywin's actions inexcusable but does explain them. I wonder what Gregor's motives were ...

edited 21st Sep '14 8:06:48 AM by Cheshire

Honestly, the hatred some people have for the Starks creeps me out just a tiny bit, because a lot of it seems to be based on them not being pragmatically ruthless enough. People tend to dislike them for not abandoning their moral standards even when everyone else around them acts like an asshole, basically. Characters like Tywin, Randyll Tarly and even Roose Bolton tend to resonate more with them because they're viewed as behaving in a way that's more sensible and overall more beneficial for someone living in a war-torn Crapsack World — which I view as a logical fallacy based on the assumption that guys like them are just responding to all the shit happening, as opposed to guys like them being in charge of things, and their ideologies, being the reason for why Westeros is a Crapsack World in the first place.

edited 21st Sep '14 8:36:24 AM by DrDougsh

I agree with you.

Also...Viserys.... Shouldn't that count as Alas, Poor Villain maybe? I feel sorry for him....

A lot more has happened too but...wow, that just kinda blew it all away in terms of impact, even if I knew it was coming.

edited 21st Sep '14 10:35:28 AM by Nikkolas

Viserys is a bit more pathetic than pitiful, for me, but he has more reason to be crazy and entitled and hateful than most of our crazy, entitled, and hateful characters.

One you get later into the series and meet some more psychopaths, you kind of miss him.

Viserys... wasn't really a psycho. A combination of Targaryen mad genes, a childhood filled with hardship and being Promoted to Parent made him go off the deep end.

Still, he was a total ass and basically brought his deah on himself.

@ Dr Dougsh- This, a thousand times this.

RE Viserys, I do feel somewhat sympathetic guy, but there is a later revelation that makes me come across as a Jerk with a Heart of Jerk- spoilers just in case, because it is later in the series Illyrio makes a comment in ADWD that Viserys was planning on raping Dany on her wedding night, and was only stopped by the presence of guards. I think there is reason to question the reliability of anything Illyrio says, but this makes Viserys come across especially badly- not only because of being unconcerned with Dany's consent but also because it's like his egomania was such that he would totally undermine his own plans because of a whim.

Saying that people like Tywin are the reason Westeros is a Crapsack World is true.

But only a half-truth, seeing how it was Tywin who kept the Kingdom peaceful for more than two decades. Or that the Riverlands under Hoster Tully, a man who obliderated an entire village just to quell a rebellion, were at their strongest. Or that Randyll's house is among the more powerful in Reach. Right next to the Tyrells, the Hightowers and the Redwynes.

Hell, even Roose, Complete Monster par excellence, kept his House the second strongest in the North, made "a quiet land, a peaceful people" his motto and never gave Ned Stark a reason to complain.

Good people like Tytos, Edmure, Robb and Baelor I did, ultimately, more harm than good to their respective domains.

edited 21st Sep '14 11:12:15 AM by LogoP

Blaming Edmure and Robb for the chaos in their reign to me feels like a sort of nonsexual victim blaming. Sure, condemn them for not handling the situation well enough, and not people like Joffrey, Tywin and Littlefinger for intentionally throwing the realm into chaos for their own selfish gain.

As for Tytos, his problem wasn't that he was too good a person or not corrupt enough, it's that by all accounts he was just a weak, indecisive and dimwitted pushover of a man. There's a difference between being fair, and being ineffectual. For comparison's sake, I think part of the appeal of Stannis to his fans is that he's capable of being ruthless without being unfair about it (though he comes very close to Jumping Off the Slippery Slope when he nearly burns Edric Storm).

I forget, what did Baelor I do?

edited 21st Sep '14 11:53:22 AM by DrDougsh

Out of curiosity, are the "Old Gods" and "New Gods" important? I am at the part where Jon is initiated into the Night's Watch and he proclaimed he and his House swore allegiance to the Old and then Sam said his family believed in the New.

What god does each House worship? Do the Targaryens worship any? Apparently they aren't even native to Westeros or whatever but are conquerors from another land or continent? I dunno, just something I hear.

edited 21st Sep '14 12:10:31 PM by Nikkolas

He was a delusional zealot in general. Specifically, he revived (though not re-armed) the Faith Militant and got involved with the inner working of the Fait, with predictable results. ^note : a.k.a appointing a man who couldn't read or write as High Septon and then replacing him with a 8-year-old.

As for Edmure... he was an inept ruler. Even his relatives more or less admitted it. He left the Riverlands undefended, almost starved Riverrun to death by giving shelter to all the nearby smallfolk & dragged his domain into a war it couldn't win.

Robb, while a brilliant military mind, was even more icompetent than Edmure, politically. With his selfish Honor Before Reason attitude and his desire to prove himself worthy of his father.

edited 21st Sep '14 12:10:02 PM by LogoP

Well, there you have it: He was a bad ruler because he was a delusional zealot, not because he was too good a person.

Well, due to ancient cultural & ethnic reasons (the Andal invasion and the displacement of the First Men), there are two dominant religions in Westeros.

The South (populated mainly by Andal descendants) worships the Faith of the Seven. Headquartered at the Great Sept of Baelor in KL and headed by the High Septon. It's analogous to the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages.

The North ^note : everything north of the Neck , on the other hand, worships the Old Gods. Based on the old pre-Christian nature-worshipping pagans of Northwestern Europe. Druids and all. The North is populated mostly by people whose blood dates back to the First Men.

He was deluded, yes but he was also kind, peaceful and pious. So, a nice guy by Targaryen standards.

Yes, forgot about that. The Drowned God and his priests. Worshipped in the Iron Islands and dating back before the Andal invasion.

edited 21st Sep '14 12:33:15 PM by LogoP

There's also The Drowned God, who is like a cross between Cthulhu, Jesus and Odin. He's only worshipped on a bunch of remote islands, though.

He was deluded, and a (comparatively) nice guy, but he wasn't deluded because he was a nice guy. Appointing people to posts they are unfit for says nothing about the folly of being too kind because it has nothing to do with kindness, it's just an example of generic incompetence.

edited 21st Sep '14 12:21:48 PM by DrDougsh

@Westeros religion: The one big enclave of Seven worshippers in the North is at White Harbor, which is populated by the descendants of Southrons who went north for reasons I can't recall.

The Iron Islands have their own religion, as well, which is kind of Lovecraft-esque.

@ Edmure dragging the Riverlands into war Um, Tywin brought the war to the Riverlands after Cat arrested Tyrion. Don't know how you figured this was Edmure's fault. He was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not saying he didn't do a lot of dumb things, though

Spoiler's are courtesy for the new reader.

edited 21st Sep '14 12:23:38 PM by RandomaNama

I thought White Harbor worshipped The Seven because they're the North's biggest trading hub with the south, and thus converted to improve relations with the southerners.

That may be a factor too, but White Harbor worships the Seven mostly because the Manderlys came from the Reach and stuck to their old traditions. Chivalry included.

After Tyrion was given back, he could always sue for peace. Especially since his long-reigning father was dying and his lands were in chaos. He instead decided to ally with Robb in open rebellion and try to form a new kingdom. Bad move.

edited 21st Sep '14 12:30:24 PM by LogoP

If he'd done that, he'd probably have to join the Lannisters in fighting the Northmen, and he'd probably still have had to do it on his own lands. He was screwed either way, and if he'd gone that route, he'd have been forced to fight his own relatives and be looked on as a traitor and kinslayer.

Not really. Dorne technically declared for the throne but never lifted a finger to help it. The worst Edmure could have been forced to do was allow Lannister/Royal troops pass through his lands.

Other than that, he could always start reconstructing and claim neutrality. Just like his sister (no less) did in the Vale.

edited 21st Sep '14 12:36:59 PM by LogoP

Robb and Tywin weren't going to kindly move the fighting to the Westerlands or the North. All the bloodshed and pillaging would still have occurred in the Riverlands, and even if Edmure had declared neutrality (which wasn't even an option because the Lannister troops were already attacking him before Robb declared war), the Lannisters would still have had him under heavy military supervision just to be sure.

edited 21st Sep '14 12:43:01 PM by RandomaNama

Had Edmure & his vassals declared neutrality, Robb would have been isolated north of the Neck. Peace was always an option. Tywin has proved that he can be "merciful" to his former enemies. Seeing how he pardoned the Tyrells and many of the Storm & Crownlords who sided with Renly and Stannis.

Moreover, once Tyrion had been returned to him, Tywin didn't really have a reason to continue his feud against the House Tully.

That's actually an interesting idea—Robb forgoing helping the Riverlands and just chilling in the North. I'm assuming, of course, he still tries for independence. That would have made the battles much harder Tywin, at least. But it's ignoring that Robb and his bannermen wanted vengeance for Ned, and it would prevent Robb freeing Riverrun from Jaime's attacks and taking Jaime hostage, losing his only leverage keeping Sansa alive. Ok, not as interesting an idea s I first thought. Either way, when is this proposed peace supposed to go down? After Twyin pillages the land and sieges Riverrun?