Bleach

So, is the consensus that we should keep the Berserk Button example or remove it?

I say remove it.

I agree, remove it.

I suppose misgendering would fall under "something that would reasonably enrage someone"; it sounds like Giselle is officially transgender, but I wasn't sure if the accusations were just a gag.

edited 23rd Apr '18 7:08:25 PM by KOman

Charlotte, Yumichika, and Mayuri all make comments about Gigi being a dude/just like them in the case of Charlotte.

Actually only Yumichika and Charlotte. Well Charlotte is wrong anyway, since he accuses her of being a drag queen. Mayuri had observed the conversation between Giselle and Yumichika and spied on Giselle 24/7 since the war ended. He and everyone else continues to call her a girl. No confirmation so far on Giselle's biological sex.

Apparently this poll on eventhubs has the attention of ArcSys for a future anime fighting title.

I'm not gonna log in to vote, but if I did my votes would go to Bleach, Fullmetal Alchemist (preferably anime version), and Sailor Moon. Though I worry that there's characters I like in Bleach that would get lost due to the character bloat. Also worried that there'd be like a dozen versions of Goku Ichigo.

Does Askin really fall under Uncertain Doom? I’m not sure how far away Yushiro was, and that Gift Ball Deluxe was pretty big. Also, Askin himself was clearly talking about what’s going to happen after he dies, and Mayuri’s statement that Reiatsu continues as long as the heart beats would imply that someone whose heart was torn out, crushed and thrown to the ground wouldn’t still be exerting any.

That makes no sense. How do Hollows work then

Yusshiro was very far away. He was in front of the Wahrwelt castle, while Askin's Gift ball was in the middle of an Ast. Askin clearly had enough Reiatsu to talk. And then talk again. The Uncertain Doom applied to last time we cut to the battle scene, where Askin was alive and potentially had a chance to survive, since this is a series where even getting sliced in half or decapitated won't always kill you.

But that doesn't matter now. The novels confirmed his death, though it's unclear whether his injuries or the Auswahlen killed him. And that's disregarding the potential comeback as a zombie.

Can of worms.

It's been much debated. Uncertain Doom was the compromise that seemed to settle the debate.

Although if the novels confirm it, perhaps it should be revisited. That can probably be said for many characters, however, as Uncertain Doom got used a lot.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:55:24 PM by Wyldchyld

This example has been added to the YMMV page, regarding the Live-action film.

It's using 'some fans have claimed' language, the film hasn't even been released yet, so it's going solely off trailers. Does it apply?

• Special Effects Failure: Some fans have claimed this of the Hollows as the CGI really doesn't clash well with the live action.

Surely it should be "mesh well" or "clashes with"?

Either way, the consensus I've heard is that the CGI is pretty decent.

Do people think this qualifies as the Berserk Button trope? It's regarding Mayuri's reaction to Szayel's claim that he's achieved the perfect form.

• Berserk Button: Perfection. In his eyes, the very concept of perfection is nothing but a dead end to a scientist for there's no reason for improvement, ability and intelligence if one is perfect. Szayelapporo presses this Berserk Button when he declares himself the perfect being, setting off a Tranquil Fury inside Mayuri.

I can understand why the idea of perfection might be nonsensical enough to qualify for the trope, but it's played so seriously and even borderline horror given what Mayuri does to Szayel, that I don't feel it counts. What do others think?

I don't think berserk buttons are always supposed to be played for humor. But I'm not sure it qualifies because that's more Mayuri's Blue-and-Orange Morality.

It's not always played for humour, but it at least needs to be an overreaction to a minor thing.

Mayuri and Szayel are arguing about the soul of science as they see it, however, which doesn't seem like a minor thing to me. It wasn't played as minor in the scenes either.

I agree with you Wyld, it seems like another dodgy Berserk Button example.

This is a serious point of philosophical contention and Mayuri obviously sees it as an attack on his entire reason for living. This isn't "stop licking my doorknobs" or "stop borrowing my stapler".

A Berserk Button example not played for humour would be more like a psychopath killing someone because they had an annoying voice or they were wearing a funny colour of clothes - because the Disproportionate Retribution is what makes it scary. But whatever the response the reason has to be minor from the perspective of a reasonable person (taking into account circumstances - maybe killing someone over a stolen sheep might seem extreme to us but to a middle ages viking it might be proportionate).

edited 4th May '18 6:46:04 PM by Sigilbreaker26

I believe the rules for the Berserk Button are that it can't be something that would obviously piss off the average person, like seeing their loved ones get hurt. It doesn't matter whether it's Played for Laughs or Played for Drama. I think that loathing the concept of perfection is unique enough to get a mention.

edited 5th May '18 12:28:49 AM by KOman

That glosses over the context in which he's talking about perfection.

He's talking about the concept of perfection as it pertains to a scientist reaching the end of the road and having nothing left that needs to be discovered or advanced. It's a very 'Hollywood Science' manner of touching on the real life philosophical debates about the purpose of science, the point of becoming a scientist, what happens when the purpose of science has been fulfilled, etc. Philosophical debates of this nature have been waged for centuries in real life and have got people ostracised, imprisoned and even killed depending on the context.

So, while it's goofy ^note To be polite about it — Kubo's coverage of science in the manga is shaky, after all to define the philosophy of science in terms of 'perfection', the debate is rooted in a real life subject that has been taken seriously for much of recorded human history.

edited 5th May '18 6:39:31 PM by Wyldchyld

So, would it go under Deliberate Values Dissonance?

What was the jury regarding Pesche and Dondochakka? I’m rewatching Hueco Mundo, and every moment that these two are onscreen comes off as an annoying waste of time.

edited 8th May '18 3:15:13 PM by KOman

I wouldn't even say that there is much dissonance. Mayuri made a few good points regarding the nature of perfection and one can easily agree with it. The unique thing is that Mayuri applies the philosophy to science and adjusts his morally compass according to it. Its definitely not deliberate since the entire Shinigami-Quincy conflict boiled down to that exact same argument regarding perfection vs imperfection.

Peche is a probably a base breaker. Either you find him funny and appreciate some of his deeper moments and that he is much stronger and intelligent than he lets on or you find him just annoying. Dondochakka is seen as redundant I think, since he is a worse version of Peche.

In other news, Narita has fully recovered and there is no cancer. Book 2 will be released on the premier of the movie, the 20th July. It seems that the parts released so far make up about half of the novel. In that case at least a third book seems likely. Since book 2 focuses on Ginjou, I would say the next one will bring either Shunsui, Grimmjow/Harribel or Giselle/Bambietta into the spot light, since those and H Isagi were the advertised all stars of the series.

Good that he doesn't have cancer. That's probably a weight off his mind.

In my experience, while some people hate them, most people just don't care about Pesche and Dondochakka. They're just viewed as pointless. So, I don't think base breaker is the way to go because that requires a love-hate situation with no middle ground. I never encountered many people who liked them, to be honest. Yes, some people found them comedic and therefore didn't mind them, but they still didn't like them enough to defend their existence in the story beyond 'eh, they're harmless'.

I've never seen the kind of fandom wars over their presence in the storyline that the Base Breaker trope requires. It's not exactly a Hitsugaya or Hinomori debate (both of which are Americans Hate Tingle rather than Base-Breaking Character).

edited 7th May '18 3:15:34 PM by Wyldchyld

They'd probably be viewed as less pointless if their subplot wasn't so pointless

Theirs and Neliel's arc just peter out right when they're possibly thwarting the people responsible for their loss of status and actual regression to childhood so that the popular captains can come in and finish it instead

And then they disappear for hundreds of chapters and when Neliel shows up again her subplot once again peters out

So maybe it's the writing. Maybe they'd be better regarded if they got to accomplish a thing

They saved Ichigang's lives a few times, and introduced us to the idea that Arrancar-level hollows do seem to have a very high degree of free will and seemingly very human morality. A far cry from the hollow monsters from the first Volume.