During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Cut that for now.
As for Gregor? Keep him. The fact that Qyburn was found with a cut throat, and the prisoners, show that it wasn't just a battle. Gregor had the non-combatants attacked and killed, too
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Qyburn's dead? Huh, that show really is going off in a different direction from the books. Anyway, I'd say that's enough to disqualify the murders from Offscreen Villainy. Whether it's heinous enough is a good question though.
Cleric of Banjo
No, he survived (OT, but I kind of wonder if they will reveal he was a plant).
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
@12513: Yeah, I'm just gonna remove that Iron Man 3 example because he wasn't discussed here and there's already a consensus to wait for a while before discussing him.
Re Game Of Thrones:
- Joffrey: He's the one I'm most positive about keeping seeing as, not only is he sufficiently heinous, but his "affection" for Maegery mainly comes down to her stroking his ego and her faking an interest in killing things/watching him kill things.
- Gregor: Since the wiki defines those 200 killed as prisoners... I think the sheer number of people killed, alongside what he did to his brother, and all the torture he's committed is enough to make him a keeper.
- Dagmer: No. He's a pretty big bastard for the show, but, as others have noted, there are worse.
- Ramsay Snow: No for now, but leave him open for discussion since I definitely think he'll count before the series ends.
- Littlefinger: Well his bastardry is definitely more out in the open than in the books but I don't think he counts yet. Especially when compared with his competition.
edited 6th May '13 11:08:20 AM by OccasionalExister
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wait, cut for now or just leave for now? What's standard protocol?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I say definitely keep Joffrey, and unless there's something I'm missing here, I feel comfortable with keeping Gregor as well.
Cleric of Banjo
Yeah, keep him too (I wasn't really thinking of the massacre when I was saying to nix him).
As for Littlefinger, I don't mind waiting on him, but I think he does seem like a good fit in that while he doesn't do the killing himself, he's presented as a very nasty and cruel individual motivated by personal gain and amusement- kind of like Roose Bolton in both book and and series (but without Roose's charm and slight redeeming qualities).
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
He may well qualify by the end then. We're just not sure he does now.
In my eyes if you give someone to a man knowing he's gonna torture her to death then you're just as guilty as if you slit her throat yourself
Agreed. After all, in Real Life anyone involved in a murder, whether or not they personally did it, can be charged for it.
Littlefinger is definitely as much to blame for Ros's death as Joffrey is, but one murder of someone who betrayed him isn't enough to qualify him in this setting. I mean, Joffrey started a war by executing Ned Stark, forces whores to torture one another for his arousal, had children and babies killed to destroy evidence of him being a bastard, orders everyone in a crowd killed because one of them through a cowpie at him, and speculates on whether or not he should make homosexuality a crime punishable by death. Unless Littlefinger does a lot more, I don't see how he can qualify in this setting.
edited 6th May '13 12:54:34 PM by OccasionalExister
In all reality, Littlefinger's near responsible for the war and its continuing for his personal gain at this juncture.
Well Littlefinger did lie to Catelyn and tell her that Tyrion tried to kill Bran, which I guess kicked things off with the feud between the Starks and the Lannisters. However, the point of no return for the Northerners being committed to the war came when Joffrey ordered Ned's execution, and that was all Joffrey's idea... technically I'm sure some theorize that Littlefinger may have influenced that decision but we have no proof of that in the show or in the books so far. I don't believe there's any proof either that Littlefinger influenced Renly into declaring war for the crown, and Stannis was always planning on getting his crown once Robert died. So Littlefinger would only be responsible for the North fighting against Joffrey, not for the other participants joining the war. Anything else Littlefinger may have done to influence the war that is in the books hasn't been shown in the series yet.
edited 6th May '13 1:16:40 PM by OccasionalExister
That may be true, but how clear have they made it?
Thank you. I think we need to hold off on Littlefinger. He may well end up qualifying by the end of the show (hell, he may well end up qualifying by the end of the books) but he isn't there yet.
Will do a write up for Yuri tonight.
edited 6th May '13 1:20:48 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
We do, however, know there's proof he induced the Tyrells into joining and prolonging the war after Renly's death, but I agree we ought hold off for now.
I think that motly does it for Literature. Time to sweep through Live Action TV
Cleric of Banjo
If it's ok, I'm going to go ahead and cut Unosuke.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
There's still plenty of bad literature examples actually, but by all means, do go through the live action tv examples.
Go for it.
edited 6th May '13 1:38:06 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Please do.
However, there is one other example from Japanese cinema I want to bring up. The Villain Protagonist from Sword Of Doom. I'll let everyone know what his deal is shortly.
As for Lit...let's finish up with that now, actually. Any in particular, Ambar?
Okay...Tabletop games time
It begins with War Hammer 40000
Fabius Bile: Keep Abaddon: I think we said keep from what I remember. 'Other Chaos Champions': Too nebulous. Cut. But if someone wants to do individual writeups, sure. Tzeentch: a cut Azariah Kyras: I think the vote was to keep, but he needs to be moved to video games
Dead Lands Stone: He can count, but he needs a better writeup Ezekiah Grimme and Raven are ZCE. They probably count, but need writeups
Exalted has The Ebon Dragon: Sounds like a reptilian Ahriman. The Dragon is a keep. the Bodhisattva as well.
- Evil P Cs! CUT that mention
- The Dread Emperor: Keep but rewrite
- Baron Ludwig Von Hendriks the Black Eagle: Keep
- Evil Sorcerers: group, cut.
- Darklords: group, cut. Vlad Drakov sounds nasty. Needs new writeup.
- Ashardalon: Keep
- The Elder Evil examples, save Leviathan, all sound like qualifiers, but need better writeups
- Iuz the Evil from Greyhawk is a keeper. Better rewrite needed
- the Forgotten Realms examples: Myrkul is fine. cyric is a keeper, but needs a rewrite. Lolth is our keep
Dark Sun has Borys of Ebe...sounds a keeper
Battle Tech: You know what? These look fine.
Magic The Gathering has Yawgmoth. Sounds bad. Rewrite him.
Now the World Of Darkness
- Vampire The Masquerade has Sascha Vykos listed and s/he is a qualifier. This needs a rewrite though. Of all the Tzimisce, Vykos is the nastiest, most sadistic and cruel around. some of the Antediluvians and other members of the Sabbat and even the Camarilla can qualify here.
- Hunter The Vigil we already did. We're good.
- Carman Skiric of Battle Machines looks fine
- Path Finder was already done by Ambar. Keep the both of them
edited 6th May '13 2:09:53 PM by Lightysnake
So...Does anyone have any thoughts on Alex timmons from Dexter Early Cuts? He shot and killed 3 children for fun.
Also, I found this example on a video game called Anna:
Complete Monster: Anna and the protagonist.
No context. Also, I heard it's pretty hard for a playable character to qualify. Can anyone who has played it weigh in?
edited 6th May '13 3:21:17 PM by bobg
jjj
No context? Cut, have them come here and tell us why.
Timmons I think can qualify, but...killing kids? Is that too uncommon in Dexter really? His first onscreen victim did it...the Trinity killer did it...
True, but they showed remorse for it, and Trinity had a Freudian Excuse. Timmons does not. He does it all for fun, in fact, after he kills one kid, he gives a Slasher Smile while a fellow sniper looks shocked. While he does tell Dex he's sorry as he's killing him, we all know he does not mean that and is just trying to escape death.
Personally, I think Trinity's Freudian Excuse is bullshit, but I see the point.
Yes, and since Early cuts is an online animated prequel, we actually get to see what all the killers did in this series (via flashback) unlike the tv series itself, so we actualy SEE him shooting a kid in the head, unlike with Father Mike Donovan where we merely saw the corpses, and Trinity where we saw him try to kill one kid, saw the corpse of another, and were informed that he had done this a number of times in the past. The sick grin Timmons has on his face sure doesn,t help.
On Anna, I did find a lets play, but have not watched any of it. Maybe one day I can tell you if those examples are good enough, for now, ill cut em.
edited 6th May '13 3:45:12 PM by bobg
jjj
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wait, are we done with comics yet? Lighty?
Also, what about Green Lantern?
Rest of DC and Marvel look fine.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
If those were casualties of battle, while leaving them around as a display is nasty, the act itself isn't that heinous, since every side of the war leaves a lot of casualties in their wake.
Edit- On another topic, I see there is an example for Complete Monster on Iron Man 3.
edited 6th May '13 10:17:29 AM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki