During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Unknown Unknown
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Dread. Old school as hell.
They don't really share the same crimes since Present Zamasu is killed before he could anything and Future Zamasu's crimes are all off-screen. We never even seen him kill anyone. Merged Zamasu also still counts as his own entry since he's a fused being. You can probably combine him Goku Black's entry, but Present and Future Zamasu really can't be considered for the reasons I named.
List of Complete monsters that act as if they were Well-intentioned extremists.
- Frollo
- Koba
- Light Yagami (Manga and movie)
- Lucemon
- Zamasu
- Atrocitus (Animated series)
- Gul'dan (Movie)
- Norman Osborn
- Sabah Nur (Movie)
- Napoleon (Animal Farm)
- Sebastian Shaw (Movie)
- Nighthawk and Hyperion (Avengers Assemble)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yes. Quite true, actually. Now, have anything relevant to contribute to discussion?
Lord of Hell
to Dread
Considering how they still refer to him as Zamasu, the merged Zamasu acts exactly the same as Present and Future Zamasu (until growing insane) and isn't even treated as a separate entity from Zamasu like Vegito or Gotenks were, I'd say it's fair to just put Merged Zamasu's actions in the same entry as Zamasu's.
edited 19th Jan '17 7:46:32 AM by Awesomekid42
@Ramona: Now that I think about it, making Goku Black's write-up (with his involvment as Merged Zamasu) is not much different from a general write-up. But considering that his identity as Zamasu is a big spoiler, it should be handled more carefully.
@Loekman: considering that Zamasu overlaps with Knight Templar, it's quite difficult (but probably not impossible) to find a quote in which he doesn't sound like a WIE without proper context. Even when he revealed that he killed Goku his family, the moment relies a lot on the flashbacks.
edited 4th Dec '16 8:34:41 PM by MiraiYuji
"Yes" to Dread. I have fond memories of that show. I'm honestly more than willing to give a preliminary upvote to Smileynote as well.
@dantecito
And...?
edited 4th Dec '16 8:44:27 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Wild Child
On Monster.Star Wars, there's an entry for Jedi Starfighter, but the entry was deleted on the YMMV page because it "didn't go through the thread".
Why so serious?
Late well deserved for Zamasu. Seriously, the guy is pretty much the Dragon Ball version of Satan.
Though a few things I'd like to mention here:
For starters, may we let it sink in that Zamasu and the Lich from Adventure Time BOTH got the 'I want to destroy all life and have a wish from an omnipotent being to accomplish it' situation...and the LICH was the one who went the quick and painless route. It doesn't really apply here, but it says a lot that Zamasu managed to outclass the LICH in terms of unrepentant evil.
And second, one OTHER thing about his murder of the Barbarian that wasn't mentioned: not only could they have just left entirely, Gowasu is presumably as strong if not STRONGER than the Supreme Kai we already know (since that Supreme Kai is Incompletely Trained). Meaning he's at the VERY LEAST powerful enough to kill Freeza with one punch and Zamasu is only slightly weaker than post Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Meaning those two were so massively more powerful than the Barbarian that it was physically incapable of harming them.
Just pointing it out because it makes Zamasu's killing it even more petty and vindictive as the Barbarian was no threat AT ALL for them, even barring the fact they could escape.
Also, one BIGGER thing: Zamasu's grudge on Goku is even MORE petty in the manga:
In the manga, he never even MEETS Goku. He just sees him fighting Hit on God Tube and becomes furious with and wanting to kill him just for having the POWER of a god, rather than being humiliated by him.
Boy, am I glad that I'm not handling Zamasu's writeup. Between the crimes split between four different incarnations, all the timey-wimey shenanigans... gee whiz, talk about a headache.
Anyway, yes to the wonderfully unsubtly-named Dread.
Tell me about it, I am still trying to figure out how I am going to try to do a Zamasu in general write-up containing Goku Black's crimes without ruining the big spoiler of Black being Zamasu while condecensing said write-up to avoid it becoming too long.
The Unknown Unknown
Found this on Fairy Without Wings.
- Complete Monster: Dark Lord Sabine aka Margaret Fernandes. She raped a man, which got her pregnant, sold said child Jellal into slavery at the Tower of Heaven cares about nothing except becoming queen, which she believes to be her birthright and has been called a sexual predator by at least one reviewer. As if to hammer the point home, Zancrow, considers being adopted by her to be an honor.
- As of chapter 100 it's then revealed that she considers what she did to Jellal trivial, which only further cements this trope.
- And then in chapter 101 we get insight to her backstory, completely defying any chance Margaret had at having a Freudian Excuse, thus making her this trope to pretty much almost everyone.
- As of chapter 100 it's then revealed that she considers what she did to Jellal trivial, which only further cements this trope.
Pretty obvious cut, right?
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
I can't help but think someone brought that one up in the thread once...
Dread
Sabine could count, but needs to go through the thread, particularly since that write-up is atrocious.
To Dread and Zamasu.
I have an obscure Marvel villain to bring up, the main villain of Deapool Pulp, a series that I am pretty sure is set the Noir universe, but is set later, in the 1950s rather then the 30s or 40s. This is a more realistic version of an usually over the top super villain:
Who is General Stryfe? What has he done?
General Stryfe is a corrupt US general who is the superior officer of Wade Wilson, AKA Deadpool.
Deadpool went insane after being tortured by the Japanese during WWII and became a psychotic agent that CIA sends on suicide missions. Stryfe sends Deadpool to recover a stolen nuclear weapon before it can do any damage.
However Wade was never tortured by the Japanese, Stryfe himself captured Wade and tortured him, making him think it was the Japanese. Stryfe did this to break Wade down and transform him into the perfect solider. Stryfe wants to create an army of obedient soldiers with no will of their own, to serve his unquestioning minions.
Stryfe also masterminded the theft of the nuclear device, wanting to blow up NYC, start WWIII, believing that America will be victorious and he will rule over a American military dictatorship that will control the world.
Wade eventually discovers Stryfe's true nature, but Stryfe sicks Cable, another mind controlled solider on him. Deadpool manages to free Cable from his mind control and they both kill Stryfe.
Is he heinous by the standards of the story?
Well this is set in the Marvel Noir universe, so guys like Dr. Octopus and Crime Master set the heinous bar in this universe, that being said, Stryfe has a far bigger attempted body count then either of those two. I have not seen any other Noir villain match up in terms of heinousness to the villains I have mentioned and I have read most of the Noir stories.
The only villain in this story who can count besides Stryfe is Outlaw, one the one Stryfe tasked with stealing the bomb, Wade's love interest, who plans on setting off the bomb after Stryfe has died, for kicks and no she is not mind controlled, but this plot twist does come pretty late in the story and Wade seems to love her despite her true nature, the only shot of her may or may not be sympathetic, depending on how much we can relate to Wade's feelings towards her. I can do an effort pot on her, but she is quite 100% clear cut like Stryfe is.
Deadpool does some questionable things in this series, I think he blows up a military base in Asia, likely North Korean. But really Deadpool's psychotic state is Strye's fault in the first place, so I think he should get some of the blame there.
Also this story is more serious then many Deadpool stories and Styrfe is played straight.
Any Freudian Excuse or other sympathetic qualities?
Yeah right, the guy is power mad fascist, nothing in his ideology or personality makes him even remotely sympathetic.
Final Verdict?
I think he counts.
edited 4th Dec '16 10:34:08 PM by Overlord
Stryfe. A few points:
- I am curious about Outlaw.
- Does 616!Stryfe count?
Outlaw may count, I may do an effort post on her later.
As for 616 Stryfe, I really don't feel like doing an effort post on him, he is really convoluted and a lot of his stories are just bad. I think someone a year ago mentioned he might count, but nothing came of it. Anyone else is welcome to try their hand at him, but he is in the X-Men universe, which has a high standard, but he release the Legacy Virus that killed a lot of mutants over a long period of time. He may count, but I am not going to touch this one.
edited 4th Dec '16 10:42:27 PM by Overlord
John Dread. I'm curious whether there's some specific origin for that name, because I think we have at least one other CM by that name and possibly more. (I mean, "Dread" is obvious, but John?)
Edit: Also an up-vote for General Stryfe, I guess.
edited 4th Dec '16 11:25:16 PM by nrjxll
@ Zamasu and Lich: Actually with the latter the Lich has never stated why he wants to kill everyone. It's mainly implied, and its a bit GDV. Zamasu is an unholy take on Mike Nelson, Destroyer of Worlds however; he thinks he's saving the multiverse by getting rid of "undesirables" in his mind, however doesn't seem to realize what he's doing isn't all that different than Majin Buu. The only difference of the results of if they win is that there would actually be planets left but they'd at best have semi-congnizant life forms and at worst nothing more sophisticated than bacteria
Kind of like the Anti-Spiral really, though even more missing the point and there's no Spiral Nemesis to worry about
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Cell gets defeated by a freaking KID??
- John Dredd. Why was he renamed Miles in the remake? Fun fact: I looked up his voice actor: Martin Jarvis is British, and voiced Alfred in the Arkham Series (except for Asylum, where he didn't appear).
- As for his name, John's just a common name probably. I don't know if Anti-Spiral is the best comparison, as looking at his page, he (it?) DOES seem to be a WIE.
- Stryfe.
- I took care of that Starfighter thing; I mentioned it's at Star Wars.
edited 5th Dec '16 12:43:50 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Lightysnake: I think you're talking about John Dread from Otherland.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Hey. This was not "some kid," mkay? This was friggin' Gohan we're talking about, while he was in Super Saiyan form. 
And it's not like it was done instantly; it took several episodes before Gohan killed him, and Gohan himself nearly died in the process.
General Stryfe seems like a .
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
Dread.
Why so serious?