During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Wild Child
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
We did discuss The Legend of Tarzan. No one counts.
Regarding whether Aizen's monologue equates to Even Evil Has Standards.
I don't think it's that trope. This is obviously an interpretation, but Aizen monologues about the connection between fear of death and the need for hope and faith in an environment that has none of these things. He is in a pitch black prison that contains immortal beings for a sentence that will last 20,000 years. Aizen's prison is the very world Yhwach was trying to create, and Aizen's prison (Muken) is named after a literal hell dimension (the Buddhist hell Avici). Aizen appears to be explaining that Yhwach was trying to create hell, not paradise, based on the experience of his own punishment.
@ACW: I had a look at the sandbox, and only made a couple of minor structural tweaks. I don't have any objections to the content.
edited 21st Aug '16 6:53:08 PM by Wyldchyld
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Arianna sounds like a product of her father. Going to go with the safe vote of "no".
...what?
Anyways, new candidate. Thanks to Lighty for the pointer, here's Mr. Smith (a Christopher Walken character, actually) from Nick of Time.
Who is Mr. Smith? What does he do?
Mr. Smith is an enigmatic assassin with a Hair-Trigger Temper involved with a tight conspiracy to assassinate the Governor of California, Eleanor Grant. Now, Smith isn't the ringleader of this conspiracy but he is a high-ranking operative, and he's by far the worst of the various people involved. Smith and his cohort Ms. Jones introduce themselves pretending to be police officers and searching out a place, with the intent to pull out some unwilling innocent to assassinate the Governor for them to keep their own hands clean. They eventually find a target - accountant Gene Winston and his young daughter Lynn. Still under the guise of being police, Smith and Jones lead Gene and Lynn to a car, where they explain their goal. Gene, completely against his will, is given materials to assassinate the Governor and just short of an hour and a half to do it. To motivate him, the two threaten the life of his child and promise to kill her if he doesn't kill the Governor, and sends him on his way.
As Gene gets into the building where Eleanor is making her speech, Smith follows him everywhere he goes. He follows him up stairs, threatens and beats him whenever he tries to talk to someone to help him. After his first slip-up, on an elevator where Eleanor boards, Smith viciously beats and threatens to murder Gene (and might I add his survival once he completes the mission is literally not a priority of his) if he ever slips-up again. It's also revealed after this scene Smith had a friend (some Italian "jolly son of a bitch") whom he used to have a pretty good relationship with. Once he got "the call" because said person was "a fuck-up," Smith murdered him with no questions asked. Once it's revealed the chief-of-security is also in on the plot, Gene finally manages to dodge Smith, explains the situation to Eleanor's assistant, Krista. Krista promises to help and takes Gene to Eleanor's husband.
Plot-twist; Eleanor's husband is a part of the conspiracy. Smith pops up out of nowhere and coldly shoots Krista dead. While Eleanor's husband (Brendan, I think was his name) moans over Smith's unnecessary brutality, Smith violently chokes Gene into unconsciousness. Enter a weird dream scene where Gene shoots Smith, Smith survives, does a Walken face, and then tosses him out a window. Weird and unnecessary. Gene wakes up whilst Smith continues to threaten to murder his daughter, before sending a shocked Gene onwards - this time threatening to literally tear his daughter's head off in front of him if he screws up again and even trying to give his cohort the order to kill Lynn early (which fails due to Jones apparently only telling Lynn to "scream as loud as she could," which infuriates Smith). Gene talks to a shoe-shiner he met earlier named Huey and, with his help, once again manages to dodge under Smith as he follows him and goes directly to Eleanor and tells her everything, urging her to cancel the speech. After talking with her husband and learning Krista's been murdered, Eleanor truly does begin to suspect something's up, but goes to the next speech anyways, where Smith is waiting.
In a room above where Eleanor's speech is being held, Smith watches Gene like a hawk, expecting him to shoot. Unexpectedly, Gene instead turns the gun on Smith; Smith survives as the crowd falls into chaos. With lost patience, Smith starts indiscriminately firing into the crowd in an attempt to kill Eleanor himself, hitting an innocent civilian and Eleanor's bodyguard in the process (the bodyguard only survives due to a bullet-proof vest). Eleanor seems to be killed in the process, but wakes up just as her husband starts to quietly gloat over her, pulling the plug on the whole scheme. Jones is prevented from killing Lynn after the time mark passes by Huey, but Smith isn't having of it, stumbling out to the car and simply attempting to shoot the child dead there and then. Gene manages to stop him and shoot him in the back before he can kill Lynn; all Smith can say about the matter is proudly acknowledge "I told them I could make a killer out of you" before Gene finishes him off.
Any mitigating factors?
...ha.
None. Smith's easily the worst of those involved in the conspiracy, so pass on the relative heinous standard. Absolute... he doesn't necessarily have a ton of blood on his hands, but Smith is just so pointlessly and randomly violent I think he more than passes the baseline anyways. Half of his screentime is just him threatening, yelling at, and hurting others around him; the entire plan revolves around him basically ruining the life of whatever random civilian he happens to pick up (and his superiors explicitly disapprove of this, so he's not Just Following Orders either) and he is way, way too insistent on threatening to brutally murder Gene's seven-year-old or so daughter for the slightest slip-up. Coupled with his willingness to kill someone at the drop of the hat and I believe Smith's bad enough.
Conclusion?
I reckon we've got a keeper. Walken actually managed to pull out a surprisingly terrifying performance for this role as well - easily the best part of the movie.
Thoughts?
edited 22nd Aug '16 5:24:49 AM by Scraggle
Yes to Smith. It's also pretty clear that Smith fully plans on killing Gene and likely his daughter should Gene even do what he's told. He's so ridiculously nasty I think he's a clear, obvious keeper.
Wild Child
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Smith.
I have one hell of a manga villain I want to effortpost, but the story is still young....ind of wondering if I should propose him now like I did with Rades, or wait.
Effortpost or not, mind telling us who they are?
to Mr. Smith.
Smith
Messenger from another dimension.
Smith obviously. Scraggle is one of those users whose villains will always qualify.
@ Scraggle: His name is Cain from To the Abandoned Sacred Beasts
Lizzid people!
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Should we maybe add a link to this thread on the page description? So that people know if they want to add an entry or submit one for discussion they can just click the link and come here?
Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
The Unknown Unknown
Probably. At the very least, a "% %" disclaimer in the edit page (like for image picking disclaimers or ZCE warnings) should get the point across.
edited 22nd Aug '16 6:28:18 AM by erazor0707
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Edit page is locked. But there don't seem to be any indicators that this is the place to come to make additions.
Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
It's very impartial. We treat Judeo-Christian myth the same way we treat all other myth. What are you on about?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Wyldchyld: Cool. I'll add it to the batch to work on this weekend.
- Smith (interestingly, I think that'd only be Walken's second CM).
- Lighty: This Cain? He certainly looks bad, but you forgot the best part: his full name is Cain Madhouse.
- Incidentally, I love how we just had a proposal about "Mr. Smith", while Lighty wants to propose a "Cain Madhouse".
edited 22nd Aug '16 7:51:43 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes, that's the one.
So... it,s been quite a while since the Tarzan film has been out. Does anyone want to talk about wether or not anyone in it counts?
jjj