During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lost in Space
Eddie told me that the visible part of the pages is supposed to be for the readers, not the editors. I challenged him on that but he hasn't responded.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I removed a bunch of boldface notes in the Complete Monster subpages. They won't stop anybody, they look unfriendly, and they are addressing the editors, not the readers.
Readers don't know there is a "controversy" and don't need to be dragged into it, or worse, have it suggested to them as something about which they should pick a side.
Once a person clicks the edit button, though, it is fair to start treating them like an editor. A big note in a source comment, one that takes up the whole initial visible area in the edit box, even, could work.
edited 11th Dec '11 10:51:16 AM by FastEddie
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
...That actually makes sense. So it would be all right if we put the warnings as commented out instead?
.......that's brilliant!
Okay, so keep all stuff like those notes out of what the readers can see, and keep them exclusively where editors will have to read them.
EDIT: Okay, I did it in Tabletop games so that one of the warnings appear on the page, but when someone tries to edit it there is a large section commented out, with our warnings visible for them to see.
edited 11th Dec '11 2:53:13 PM by Shaoken
Cut a very long, very nattery, argumentative discussion about Chesire from the DC Comics section. I have no feelings about the character either way, but this needed to go. I have replicated it here in full. If we could get some discussion on a) if she belongs, and b) if so, how to condense it, that would be great.
"** Another from Gail Simone, who seems to understand this trope quite well, is Cheshire, who despite her now deceased Morality Pet daughter Lian, crossed it a long time ago...
—->Cheshire is just pure evil. I never write [her] with any hope of redemption or redemptive qualities. It seems to me that once you’ve nuked a country, there is no hope of showing a positive side of the character, it’d be like doing a sympathetic portrayal of Pol Pot.
- And just in case you had any doubts, this is the entire reasoning for why Cheshire did it:
- Cheshire has already made it a point that Lian's safety means little to her. The whole reason she was with the Secret Six was because it was believed that Mockingbird, the man controlling the team, had implanted a bomb in the back of Lian's head, which would either kill her or leave her brain dead. So Cheshire had managed to talk Catman into sleeping with her in order to conceive a replacement child, thereby severing Mockingbird's hold on her, quitting the team and no longer needing to worry, or care, if Lian gets killed. Her exact words to Deadshot were:
- To make matters worse, Cheshire wasn't even sure if she actually conceived at the time. This whole scenario just demonstrates that both her children were little more than leverage pieces to hold over their fathers. If not for Lian, Cheshire would never be able to rely on Roy's uneasiness in bringing her to justice, and if not for her son by Catman, Thomas Jr., Chesh would never have been able to convince Catman to hunt down and kill the mercenaries who kidnapped him and gave her a No-Holds-Barred Beatdown. In Lian's case, this is especially true, as Chesh was able to guilt trip Roy into joining Deathstroke's Titans team by saying that Roy "owed her" for Lian's death.
- Should be noted that this portrayal is rather at odds in other depictions of Chesh where she does genuinely love Lian. In Titans, for instance, she surrendered back to prison so Lian didn't see her kill someone.
- One should also note that Roy was the one she was fighting, along with the prison guards. Lian had walked in, along with the guards, on Cheshire fighting Roy and gaining the upper hand. It was stated above that Chesh has been able to rely on Roy going easy on her because she was Lian's mother. Would she still be able to rely on that if she acted like a bad mother towards their daughter? And how would Lian feel towards her mother if she saw her kill Roy?
- Given that she was willing to kill Roy to gain her freedom at that point and only backed down when Lian entered the picture, that probably wouldn't be an issue with Roy deceased.
- It should be noted, however, that Cheshire is nothing compared to Vandal Savage and Dr. Psycho, if her reaction and Psycho's when they discover what Savage has served them for dinner is anything to go by."
- One should also note that Roy was the one she was fighting, along with the prison guards. Lian had walked in, along with the guards, on Cheshire fighting Roy and gaining the upper hand. It was stated above that Chesh has been able to rely on Roy going easy on her because she was Lian's mother. Would she still be able to rely on that if she acted like a bad mother towards their daughter? And how would Lian feel towards her mother if she saw her kill Roy?
See what I mean? Yeesh.
I wear no mask.
Finished catching up to this thread... My God, I've created a monster.
That said, I agree with the overall gist and will try to contribute more towards the effort.
First, concerning ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
... Yeah, that is an eyesore. Natter aside, could we get DC-philes to weigh in on her inclusion/exclusion? What's the official stance on Cheshire? Was her love for her daughter fake or was it genuine at some point? Is she constantly in a state of Depending on the Author or is she mostly consistently portrayed bar a few writers and/or stories once in a while? And that last line about the time she puked when offered long pork
really has gotta go- just 'cause you're a Complete Monster doesn't mean you're automatically partial to cannibalism, so it's meaningless one way or the other.
I wear no mask.
Also, some image links I think should be cut for not being indicative enough:
- Anti-Monitor: He just looks like your garden-variety Omnicidal Maniac in this. A pic where we actually see him annihilating/crushing something or someone (he may be destroying whole univeres in the pic, but it's not immediately obvious) would be better.
- Darkseid: He's beat up Superman, true, but that speaks more of his power than his evilness. Again, something where he does a more obviously despicable act would be better.
- Francisco Scaramanga: Menacing a Bond Girl with a gun is standard Bond villain fare; again, a more evil pic would be good.
- Judge Doom: A pic where he's using the dip would probably be better; strangling Roger Rabbit isn't particularly evil since he's a toon.
Also, the anime and manga subpage looks half-finished, and even then a lot of the subpages are so small that they should be folded back into the main heading IMO.
edited 16th Dec '11 3:51:49 AM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Think of the mooks!
I can at least confirm Darkseid belongs - torture, oppression, tyranny, casual domestic abuse... I've been shown enough panels by DC fans that I have no doubt that he qualifies. That said, if the main point is currently "he fights Superman," his blurb needs rewriting.
Oddly, he's also one where I'd say Pragmatic Villainy also fits in - he generally only does a particular action if it fulfills his aims in some way (though the domestic abuse bit is typically an exception). Not that he wouldn't devote his energies to doing any evil thing that came to his attention... he just would want to know how it'd help first.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I wear no mask.
I'm not claiming Darkseid isn't a Complete Monster (he definitely is), nor do I claim it for any other character I mentionned in my previous post (). I was just saying the pics for these characters on the Image Links page aren't demonstrative enough, and that we should try finding better ones if possible.
edited 15th Dec '11 4:10:50 PM by Paireon
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Oh, bother.
Does Alduin from Skyrim count as a Complete Monster? I'd like to add him to the Elder Scrolls page on the grounds that he's a world destroying demigod who is killing everyone and eating their souls to fulfill his own twisted desire to dominate everything. He's even a Dirty Coward who flees at the first sign of danger.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Haven't played the game yet, but that sounds like 90% of fantasy Big Bads. (Apart from the cowardice, but that's hardly relevant to his Complete Monsterdom.)
edited 19th Dec '11 4:42:13 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash
Hhm, here's a thought for it. What about complete monsters with more then one writer that portrays them in different manners? How does one sort that out?
Lost in Space
I would say that different continuities would allow a character to be listed as a CM in specific incarnations. The trouble with Depending on the Writer is when someone applies it within the same continuity — just because the Joker is written differently from issue to issue doesn't mean you should do something absurd like: He's a CM between #34 and 55, then again from #102-104. That's just stupid.
edited 19th Dec '11 12:05:49 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Oh, bother.
Alduin would be pretty generic...except you actually see him eating souls as they try to get to their well-earned afterlife. There's just something especially evil about consuming souls while they are trying to reach their just reward.
Disgusted, but not surprised
That One Guy
I wouldn't call him one, he's too pathetic, more of an evil prick. The example you gave seems to just be an act of desperation from him due to the Dragonborn kicking his ass.
edited 19th Dec '11 8:35:50 PM by Firebert
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Oh, bother.
Odahviing does imply that Alduin was doing the whole soul eating thing before getting his ass kicked. But yeah, I gotta agree that Alduin is kind of pathetic in hindsight.
Disgusted, but not surprised
I wear no mask.
I don't really know about the guy's personality, but while eating souls is definitely Moral Event Horizon-worthy, it's a bit too common for fantasy badguys to actually make him a CM IMO, especially in a series like Elder Scrolls that doesn't shy away from the dark stuff (although murderizing him with terminal prejudice is most definitely his just deserts, considering his actions could destroy the world).
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.
Ideal and the Real
Not sure if my post got seen by any moderator, but I would like to propose Demon Lord Ghirahim, again, my post is a little bit back:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=16#396
As well as a little bit more information at the top of this page, if needed.
edited 20th Dec '11 10:37:18 PM by xVanitas
There was one major objection raised before the thread was briefly derailed:
Otherwise, he sounds like he fits (I haven't played the game), but it's a pretty big objection.
Edit: And actually, on second thought, it sounds like he doesn't actually commit much evil-doing onscreen anyway. I definitely wouldn't say that the fact that he Would Hit a Girl is "heinous", for instance. Most of the other stuff seems to consist of threats.
edited 20th Dec '11 10:43:42 PM by nrjxll
Ideal and the Real
For the first part, that is why I had my interpretation here:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=17#401
And, according to the main page, it doesn't say anything about onstage villainy anymore. The threat and intention of wanting to do the horrific things to the protagonists, I am guessing should count.
Although again, I guess I'll just leave this here until a moderator (preferably one who has played the game, and would understand the character) sees my points.
...This is a bit of a dumb question, but are you a moderator? This is actually my first time posting here, so I can't tell. I am guessing it would say the word moderator next to your name, though.
No. I'm pretty sure that there is some kind of "mod marking", though I have forum gingerbread disabled and so have never seen it. But I'm not a mod.
Lost in Space
"Doing horrific things" is not, in and of itself, a valid CM criterion, otherwise we'd be back to listing every villain ever.
<— Is a mod but is expressing an opinion, not a Word Of The Mods Ruling.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Okay, so I have a question for you guys; are we still going to lock articles once we're happy with them or not?
Lost in Space
I would like to keep the CM pages locked just because they're such obvious drama magnets. Time has shown that we simply cannot trust the general troper body to be responsible with them.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
One could interpret it as... him being a Demon Lord first, being of his own accord, free will and choice. After all, he COULD have murdered Link and had the choice to do so, if only he did not underestimate Link's prowess and toyed with him. He is also capable of emoting, with his over the top and flamboyant tendencies. He is definitely and undyingly loyal to his master, even if that means BEING his weapon. Yet Ghirahim still has the ability of free choice. It was his choice to go on a quest to revive him.
It's... debatable, though. Hopefully a moderator will see all the points I have made, and I prefer that they are familiar with the game too so that they would understand.
edited 11th Dec '11 3:18:10 AM by xVanitas