During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lost in Space
OMG, that article needs grammar scrubbing. If the person committing the crimes is never identified or shown on screen, then they can't be a CM. Seems pretty straightforward. Also, I would challenge whether creepypasta works can have CMs. Didn't we already decide to throw dark fics out of consideration entirely?
edited 6th Mar '15 1:48:08 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
First off, allow me to say, sweet Zombie Jesus, the hell is wrong with whoever made that? Second, agreeing with Fighteer. We don't see the person, we don't know their personality, their background, their motives, their mental state, or anything that would make them an actual character instead of a poorly done means to create cheap shock value. Reasserting my "cut him" vote.
Looking over the tropes page, there's no identified person behind anything. Why was this reopened to discussion?
Lizzid people!
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for the Murderer. Also, I was wondering if we really took an in-depth look on Dr. Wily from the Mega Man cartoon series. I haven't actually watched the show, but I am questioning Wily's status as one. Is he really a legit example? He was brought up once if I remember correctly.
edited 6th Mar '15 2:04:03 PM by AustinDR
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Squidward's Suicide link.
Just out of curiosity, is it possible for a parody like Blazing Saddles (and yes, I do realize you were making a point) to have a CM?
A total has-been.
The big issue with Zant is that not only is he ultimately Ganondorf's pawn, he's presented as being somewhat mentally ill. In the flashback to when he got turned down for the throne, we see him acting just as unhinged and childish as he's currently acting in the present, and this combined with the fact that he thought differently and felt differently about being confined in the Twilight Realm than other Twili suggests there was something seriously wrong with him form the start. Also, if he qualified, we'd have to qualify Higuchi from Death Note too, since he was pretty much the same thing: a mentally disturbed man handed the power to use to kill people for his own selfish reasons, but was ultimately a pawn in Light's plans. Therefore, how much culpability does Zant have for what was ultimately set up by Ganondorf, who was taking advantage of him the whole time?
The unknown child murderer in that Squidward's Suicide thing isn't being voted, I think. It's obvious that's not a qualifier.
edited 6th Mar '15 2:10:56 PM by ANewMan
Isn't Wily affably evil? Or not really that evil to begin with? Granted he's responsible for everything bad that's happened in the Mega Man series including Dr. Weil and Sigma, but I don't think he qualifies in any continuity, let alone the cartoon where he's way too silly. I remember watching the cartoon as a kid and I thought while Wily was a dick, he never really was taken seriously enough to be a Complete Monster.
@A New Man: Unlike Higuchi though, Zant committed those atrocities by himself and doesn't share them with Ganon. (Ganondorf is more or less Orcus on His Throne in Twilight Princess) He was never ordered to do so or offered it by Ganon. We'd probably have to disqualify Yuga too by that logic as up until the end he is but a pawn of Princess Hilda. Just because a villain is a pawn, doesn't mean they don't qualify. (See Dimentio from Super Paper Mario) The only reason Zant didn't betray Ganondorf is because he was killed, and if you think about it, he DID betray him in Ganondorf's final moments where he cracked his head causing Ganondorf to die, which shows he's not above betraying his supposed "God".
edited 6th Mar '15 2:16:19 PM by Klavice
Lost in Space
Parodies are independent works, not fan works, and as such may be treated according to their own merits. The main issue there is whether their comedic nature deprives their villain(s) of the necessary seriousness.
edited 6th Mar '15 2:16:52 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lizzid people!
That's why I'm asking the question. He's already on the Monster.Mega Man page. There are also some writeups that probably need to be looked at.
edited 6th Mar '15 2:15:44 PM by AustinDR
Nah, we didn't say Creepypastas/darkfic couldn't count long as they meet the requisite standards.
Thumbs down to the murderer.
Lost in Space
Frankly, when someone goes out of their way to corrupt a work's characters in some horrifically depressing way just to get them declared a CM, I don't want to give them the legitimacy of a trope entry. Let's not validate this crap.
Dark is not edgy. It's just dark. And frequently pointless.
edited 6th Mar '15 2:19:34 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I don't disagree, but we decided that we couldn't chuck the baby out with the bathwater, as there are examples of 'darker' fics that aren't gratuitous, tasteless and make an effort at being well written.
A total has-been.
@Klavice: Fair point about Zant's own atrocities being his own choice and not shared with Ganondorf. Still, you misunderstand some things.
We'd probably have to disqualify Yuga too by that logic as up until the end he is but a pawn of Princess Hilda. Just because a villain is a pawn, doesn't mean they don't qualify. (See Dimentio from Super Paper Mario).
Yuga and Dimentio were not "pawns." Both of them were planning on betraying Hilda and Count Bleck respectively from the start. In fact, the implication in the latter's game is that the Dark Prognostic prophecy that Bleck bases his plan upon was in fact written by Dimentio, meaning that Bleck was his pawn rather than the other way around. Zant expressed no plan to turn on his "god" once he ascended to power - he wasn't smart or manipulative enough to try that like the villains you mentioned. He sincerely believed he was to become the sole ruler of the world.
The only reason Zant didn't betray Ganondorf is because he was killed, and if you think about it, he DID betray him in Ganondorf's final moments where he cracked his head causing Ganondorf to die, which shows he's not above betraying his supposed "God".
Zant was dead by that neck snap part, so if that was his spirit from beyond the grave, he'd know by then that Ganondorf wasn't a god and had used him to fulfill HIS plan the entire time. It's not exactly a redeeming feature, but it shows that Zant never would have betrayed Ganondorf while he was still living. If Zant had destroyed Link and Midna and succeeded in taking over Hyrule, Ganondorf most likely would have killed him first.
edited 6th Mar '15 2:32:15 PM by ANewMan
On those bad fanfic entries from earlier... confession time. I added that entry, and the page for the story, because in high school I was the fic's beta-reader. It's something of an Old Shame of mine. Let's see what I can remember... Dark Specter can probably go due to Freudian Excuse; though in my correspondence with the author he said he grew to dislike the excuse and planned to write it out in an Updated Re-release of the story that never happened. King Ra doesn't do much but act smug. I think I added him due to how good at Breaking Speech he is, actually convincing half the heroes to give up their quest at one point, but he doesn't do much except try to kill them I don't think.
Captain Logan, though... this is a fic that takes the whole "Time Force is a False Utopia" theory that's common among fans and runs with it. I think he can stay. He's smaller in scale than the other villains, genocidally racist against mutants, and not above killing innocents.
Senator Thorne is a yes. The guy has a refugee camp massacred, which we actually see. Case rested.
Jacob Russell is a no. He's just standard slime, and we don't even see the murder attributed to him IIRC.
edited 6th Mar '15 2:40:45 PM by HamburgerTime
Well I wasn't trying to get either of them added, but I did want a little bit of discussion on them.
Also, Occasional Exister, did you even read the page? Every one of those characters on the Ace Attorney page deserves to be there. Just because Dahlia and Phantom have the highest bodycount, does not mean they automatically disqualify the others. Manfred has an implied higher bodycount by virtue of being a corrupt prosecutor who purposely gets defendants convicted in order to stroke his ego of a perfect case, (At least more than a few would be innocent of their crime) Matt, Kristoph, and Quercus ruined the lives of several people which to me is just as bad as killing them. If we're just going to qualify serial killers as complete monsters, then we've got a LOT of work to do. I don't think any of them fail the heinous standard. So what if Dahlia and Phantom went above and beyond? We'd have to disqualify Dahlia too by that regard (since Phantom attempted to kill hundreds in a court with a bomb, while Dahlia only killed three people and attempted to murder two.) and I doubt you'll get much support on that.
You're going by the literal definition of a Complete Monster. (The most heinous villain in a work) The trope has changed since the beginning, meaning even minor villains can qualify as long as they're evil enough and don't have any mitigating qualities. If we were to go by the literal definition, like I said, we'd have a lot of work to do as many characters who weren't mass serial killers (i.e. only had two murders and several attempted murders, or even dare I say it? Rapists.) would be cut and the trope would be pretty small. One of the smallest in the entire wiki in fact.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Thanks for the info, Hamburger Time. So Captain Logan and Senator Thorne are the keepers.
Their entries might need fixing though.
edited 6th Mar '15 2:57:09 PM by TVRulezAgain
Okay, so we need to cut the killer from Squidwards Suicide ASAP.
jjj
I started a sandbox for other media here. Mostly to deal with the titling of the music section.
Going back to the discussion from last page, I absolutely would not support a ban on creepypasta examples. As a genre it's much closer to horror than darkfic, and horror's actually one of the only places where a Complete Monster villain is usually a good idea.
Lizzid people!
I agree. Though it mostly depends on how it's written.
edited 6th Mar '15 5:15:13 PM by AustinDR
I think a Complete Monster can work in almost any genre, as long as they are written well. Its one of those tropes that can be really great when used well and really terrible when used poorly.
I will give a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Sloan.
Now anyone who is familiar with the Old Man Logan story, do you think anyone from that Wolverine story can count or is the setting too messed up to have one?
edited 6th Mar '15 5:33:58 PM by Overlord
I haven't read it, but I recall a brief discussion about its version of the Hulk, who rivals the Maestro for most depraved take on the character.
Apparently, Orochimaru may well be the villain in the new Naruto film starring Naruto's son Bolt Uzumaki.
If so, we can finally have our answer from said movie.
Lizzid people!
ACW and Occasional Exister suggested we reopen the discussion for the killer from Squidwards Suicide, so here is all the info:
The creepypasta is about an intern watching an episode of Sponge Bob Square Pants. The episode was... unusual. It was supposed to be Fear of a Krabby Patty, but instead it was Squidwards Suicide. At three points in the episode, still images appeared of dead children stripped down to their underwear. Said children had obviously been gruseomly murdered. We never actually see the killer in the images, we see his shadow a, in he last image, one of is hands pulling the child's entrails out of their stomache. The origin of the episode is never revaled, but it is possible the killer was part of the writer's staff, and had created the episode and inserted the images of the children they killed as a sick joke.
jjj