Could use renaming: Underground Monkey

This is true. A Palette Swap is one way of creating this trope.

edited 9th May '11 7:36:39 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

If we count Palette Swap example, I think that I have found around 500 more example of Underground Monkey, which clearly show that this trope is underused.

If we consider the definition (especially the laconic), Palette Swap is a subtrope of Underground Monkey : this normally means that Palette Swap examples shouldn't be on this page. And if those definition are supposed to be there, there is a problem in the fact that the more restrictive definition has far more inbound than the broader one. The fact that Palette Swap is a clear name and Underground Monkey isn't is probably the cause of this.

That statement shows both a misunderstanding of Palette Swap and Underground Monkey. They are not super and sub tropes. Palette Swap is a appearance trope. Underground Monkey is about how different mooks are related to each other in game.

You can use a Palette Swap to create an Underground Monkey, but it's not the only way and not all Palette Swaps are Underground Monkies.

edited 9th May '11 8:10:28 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Can you give me an example of a "Reuse a monster, change its color and toughness, and pretend it's an all new monster" which isn't "Another version of a previous enemy" ?

At the very least the laconic need to be rewritten. Even in the larger sense, most Palette Swap example are Underground Monkey (the only exception are Player Character Palette Swap and non fighting NPC).

Another way to show you the underuse : every Elite Mook in a videogame is an Underground Monkey. Compare the popularity of these two trope.

edited 9th May '11 8:40:45 AM by VioletOrange

Ah, that's the issue. Someone added a laconic that isn't this trope. That's where your issue is coming from.

The trope is actually "Monsters that you encounter are related in some sort of family tree." You really need more than just two related to have an Underground Monkey though. If it's just the one instance it's an Elite Mook.

edited 9th May '11 8:45:31 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Palette Swap's laconic is off, then.

BTW, to link a trope from another namespace, use Namespace/TropeName (or Namespace.TropeName if you want the namespace to be displayed).

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Palette Swap's laconic is good. It's Underground Monkey that's off.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Rereading it, I think that Palette Swap is also wrong : the picture chosen for the trope doesn't fit the laconic description, and the description isn't monster-only.

And for Underground Monkey, where is the three member minimum requirement mentioned in the description ? Plus, if that's the case, several example are wrong.

It's not a requirement, but just having two doesn't make you a family. There are a lot of upgrades that aren't really families.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

...Before or after I whacked into it?

edited 9th May '11 9:25:39 PM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

After. I didn't realise you had changed it. I do think changing just the colours on 3D models counts as well. If it's just a repaint it's still just the palette being swapped. Super Smash Brothers is a good example. They just change the colours of characters for every player.

edited 9th May '11 9:43:34 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Well, texture swaps are the 3D analogue to 2D palette swaps....

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

They are. They might as well be the same trope. It's close enough that we can understand that they're the same think. We could make Texture Swap a redirect if you would feel better about it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I wasn't complaining or suggesting anything.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Just to be sure, what is Under Ground Monkey for you ?
Compare to monster A

1) Monster B has the same stats and ability but a very different model
2) Monster B has different stats but the same model
3) Monster B is more resistant to fire and is redder
4) Monster B is tougher and has a bigger sprite
5) Monster B is tougher and has a slightly different sprite
6) Monster B has more ability and a very similar sprite
7) Monster B has different ability but they have a similar sprite
8) Monster B has the same ability and a slightly different sprite

After that, which videogames could you suggest that doesn't have this trope ?

My answers

3/4/5/6/7/8 are all Underground Monkey.
Only non example is Shadow Of The Colossus.

edited 10th May '11 12:03:06 PM by VioletOrange

Examples need a little cleanup though: for one, Legend Of Mana isn't an example — every enemy has a distinct model (and page in your Monster Encyclopedia), and they simply appear at higher experience levels in tougher areas. It does have a few cases of mooks upgraded to boss caliber, but that's not the trope.

edited 10th May '11 12:07:55 PM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Without having played the games, I disagree : there is clearly for me family in the enemy sprites (goblins for instance)

1-8 can all be examples depending on how they're related in game, but nothing on 1-8 is required to be an Underground Monkey. They just need to have a theme running through them. Your problem is, you're trying to define the trope based on things that don't matter to the trope. Stats and such don't matter. Appearance matters, but not as much as you think it does. It's more incidental that they all tend to have a motif to their designs.

Does the game treat the monsters as a family of monsters or not. Yes, or no. That's all that matters. Having them look visually similar is an easy way to establish this, but it's not the only way.

edited 10th May '11 1:43:35 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I think we are stuck : how can I know, objectively that two monster forms a family or not ? Word of God ?

Can you give me examples of 3-8 which are not this trope and other which are ? Can you give me game (with enemy) which doesn't have any Underground Monkey, which isn't Shadow Of The Colossus ?

You don't need Word of God. Just check the Monster Compendium. It's generally in there if it's not obvious.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

@Violet: I said "Legend of Mana", not Secret Of Mana. I'm aware that Secret of Mana (and its sequel) had plenty of Underground Monkeys, but Legend Of Mana was an exception.

Compare Final Fantasy IX — FF games have their share of Underground Monkeys, but FF 9 was an exception too.

edited 11th May '11 12:47:53 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

I didn't find an enemy list with name for Legend Of Mana, so maybe you are right for this game. However, I disagree with FF 9 : Type A, B and C seems to form a family, as the goblins do.

But generally speaking, FF 9 has only one enemy of each type. Only has one kind of Malboro in the entire game, for example, while most Final Fantasies would have at least two or three (and FF 12 has at least five).

The Type A, B, and C black mages were a special case because they were mass-produced for the Alexandrian army as part of a plot point.

edited 11th May '11 8:57:26 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

Maybe, but ff9 has an example of Underground Monkey. With maybe Legend Of Mana (never played the game, never see a Monster Compendium of it) and Shadow Of The Collossus that makes two games which doesn't contain this trope. with that in mind, the fact that it has a great number of inbounds isn't surprising, the real surprise is that it doesn't contain more : like I said, almost every games which has enemy contains example of Underground Monkey. Comparatively, the number of inbound and wicks is ridiculous (that should be a trope of legend), especially when you compare to a better named trope like Pallete Swap.

Edit : Found another games which doesn't contains this tropes, Portal, because there is only one kind of enemy. That make three examples out of several thousand games.

Any game that fights only human enemies is going to lack Underground Monkies. As do games like Mass Effect in which NP Cs are more randomized. The Elder Scrolls games, at least the latter ones also lack them.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick