Could use renaming: Underground Monkey get usage counts

Total posts: [153]
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1 joerc4521st Dec 2010 07:51:18 PM from Fortress of Solitude , Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Underground Monkey is a essentially a trope concerning monster palette swaps as a recurring mechanism to add new enemies without using up the games' designing budget, disk space, etc by creating entirely new enemy designs. The current name is quite vague and does little to allude to such a trope. I suggest Palette Swapped Mooks, but I'd like to hear yours. smile

edited 21st Dec '10 8:07:36 PM by joerc45

2 Deboss21st Dec 2010 08:08:53 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
It's getting great usage:
Underground Monkey found in: 138 articles, excluding discussions.

This title has brought 1,226 people to the wiki from non-search engine links since 20th FEB '09.

And it's not just a Palette Swap, which is something different.
3 joerc4521st Dec 2010 08:15:41 PM from Fortress of Solitude , Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
Well, there are mechanical differences as well {ie stats/abilities/etc}, but it hardly matters in comparison to the ambiguity of the current trope name. Since it seems the one I suggested was a bit weak in hindsight, another renaming suggestion is imperative. Recycled Mooks, perhaps?

edited 21st Dec '10 8:22:24 PM by joerc45

4 Deboss21st Dec 2010 08:35:38 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I'm okay with Underground Monkey since I honestly can't think of a name that could get the intent across.
5 shimaspawn22nd Dec 2010 05:43:29 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Actually, if you look at the page image it doesn't even require a palette swap. It can be a whole different model as long as it's the same family of enemies. It's more about recycling 'types' than models or pallet swaps.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Brother of Favio
I think it could use a rename. The title doesn't really refer to how it's about a mook/character which has had its premise recycled.
7 DRCEQ23rd Dec 2010 10:41:04 AM , Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Hiiiiiii!~
Yeah, nothing to indicate it's even a video game trope either.
3DS FC: 2981-6375-5798
8 NerdAtComputer23rd Dec 2010 10:42:15 AM from Present day,present time
Nac
@Joe: Underground Monkey is a Super Trope of Palette Swap, so it's not the same. As long as you recycle something of a previous model (in a mook), it's an Underground Monkey.

Palette Swap is A WAY of reciclying models, but you can do other things. (like giving them wings or an extra eye).

Try playing Monster Rancher games and you'll see what it means. For each monster, you've 50 sub-breeds. They all look the same (even use the same model), but with slight differences. Beside colors, the sub-breeds might have antennas or wings or an extra eye.


I think that Underground Monkey is the name used by a very specific group. As the trope page says: Named for a Running Gag in RPG World, wherein the Underground Monkey is suspected of being attracted by Genre Savvy characters.

I believe we could use something more general.

edited 23rd Dec '10 11:03:36 AM by NerdAtComputer

Just call me Nac.
El Cid
Ehh... I'm not really convinced it needs a rename. It's not that this is the best name EVAR, but in context it's pretty indicative (it's a monkey but UNDERGROUND!) and I doubt you'll find much misuse of it. It's definitely snappier than "Palette Swapped Mook" and that name wouldn't give you much of a difference from Palette Swap.
10 NerdAtComputer23rd Dec 2010 11:06:58 AM from Present day,present time
Nac
@Cidolfas:

In which way an "underground monkey" is indicative?

If you can make some CLEAR relationship beetwen "a monkey but underground" and "the fact that a mooks model it's being recycled", let me know.

And the name Palette Swap Minnion should be out of the picture. This trope is more general than that.

edited 23rd Dec '10 11:17:53 AM by NerdAtComputer

Just call me Nac.
They're a Recycled Mook.
12 NerdAtComputer23rd Dec 2010 11:21:43 AM from Present day,present time
Nac
@Aquillion: I would go to something a little different. Recycled Mook Model sounds better.

edited 23rd Dec '10 11:22:16 AM by NerdAtComputer

Just call me Nac.
13 Deboss23rd Dec 2010 11:41:07 AM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
It's not about the model.
14 NerdAtComputer23rd Dec 2010 03:31:44 PM from Present day,present time
Nac
The trope is kind of confusing, I agree, and that should be fixed.

It seems to talk about "similar" mooks. But it talks about re-using models/sprites with slight differences.

Just look at the begging:

Sprites are expensive. Rendered 3D objects even moreso. As a result, there is a tendency to keep the number of distinct enemy types small.
The solution many games go for is to have a small set of monster types, but have them appear with slightly different graphics.

The image on the right doesn't help either. I believe we should create an "image change" topic as well.

We should use something like this: [1]

edited 23rd Dec '10 3:39:25 PM by NerdAtComputer

Just call me Nac.
15 DRCEQ23rd Dec 2010 05:20:41 PM , Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Hiiiiiii!~
Mook Family Tree, Mook Relatives, Mook Evolutionary Line, Mook Evolutionary Branche, Mook Descendant, Mook Darwinist Studies, Physically Altered Mook... I'm just tossing out whatever comes to mind.

edited 23rd Dec '10 5:22:12 PM by DRCEQ

3DS FC: 2981-6375-5798
16 NerdAtComputer23rd Dec 2010 05:31:25 PM from Present day,present time
Nac
(I like Physically Altered Mooks :P )

Same Mold Different Mooks, Mooks Look Alike ?

edited 23rd Dec '10 5:34:10 PM by NerdAtComputer

Just call me Nac.
I find it hard to imagine that the current title is attracting misuse. I mean, how many literal examples of monkeys that are underground could there be? And I'm not sure what else someone would Think It Means.

It's not a title I like, but it's got some very healthy stats and I doubt it's being used incorrectly, so as underwhelming as the current name is, I don't think we can justify a rename.

Redirects, on the other hand, are free. And we could sure use some of those.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
18 Deboss23rd Dec 2010 05:59:06 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Is Mook Clade too ... um, opaque? Clade is the right word. Or cladistics.

edited 24th Dec '10 1:05:40 AM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
20 shimaspawn23rd Dec 2010 07:18:55 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
It also applies to recycled concepts for mooks too. The Dragon Quest games have umpteen different types of slimes but they all have different models. They're just all called slimes and they move and behave kind of the same. So in that case it's more the name being recycled.

That said, I don't see a reason to rename something with this trope's stats. 138 wiks and 1,226 brought to the wiki is proof that this is a very healthy trope.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Was suggesting a redirect.
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel.
Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
22 NerdAtComputer24th Dec 2010 12:34:00 AM from Present day,present time
Nac
@Shimaspawn:

This answer will be very negative. Sorry. tongue

It also applies to recycled concepts for mooks too. The Dragon Quest games have umpteen different types of slimes but they all have different models. They're just all called slimes and they move and behave kind of the same. So in that case it's more the name being recycled.

The trope doesn't apply to creature recycling. If you take a closer look to the quotes posted 8x[up], you'll see the trope is in fact talking about Models or Sprites, not criature types.

Sprites are expensive. Rendered 3D objects even moreso. As a result, there is a tendency to keep the number of distinct enemy types small.

The solution many games go for is to have a small set of monster types, but have them appear with slightly different graphics.

Those phrases wouldn't make ANY sense unless the trope was talking about re-using sprites or models with small modifications, and nothing else.

But from time to time, the trope itself is very un-clear about this aspect. A lot of examples talk about "re-using mooks", instend of "re-using sprites/models".

And besides, the image on the right gives you the idea that it's the mook "idea" that is re-used. We should change that image from something more like this: [1]

That said, I don't see a reason to rename something with this trope's stats. 138 wiks and 1, 226 brought to the wiki is proof that this is a very healthy trope.

The stats are most often than not good indicator of "title health", but not always.

If a trope is used a lot, it'll be linked a lot even if the title is "bad".

Just to give a crazy example, if the trope My Kung-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours were called In Asia The Only Thing That Provides A Winner Is A Stronger Kung Fu, it would still be very linked to; don't you think?

And the last title is all but healthy.
Just call me Nac.
23 Deboss24th Dec 2010 12:51:35 AM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
small set of monster types

Is the important part. Adding a hat instead of just a recolor is the same thing. As programing became less restrictive, the ways to invoke Underground Monkey expanded.

The stats are a good way to show the title is used, but not necessarily healthy use, as misuse of the title to mean something else makes a very good case for a trope transplant. A number of common tropes had obscure names and were renamed do to low usage.
24 NerdAtComputer24th Dec 2010 01:03:34 AM from Present day,present time
Nac
@ Deboss:

I completely agree with what you said.

But even if it's a hat instead of a recolor, the important part is they use the same model/sprite with some minor change.

If the monster type is the same, but their grafics are completely different and unrelated, they are NOT this trope.

If you have one slime that looks like this, and other one that looks like this, they do NOT play this trope. No matter if they are both slimes.
Just call me Nac.
25 Deboss24th Dec 2010 01:10:41 AM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
I disagree, the original cause for this was what resulted when somebody wanted a Palette Swap that wasn't quite the same and had different abilities. The minor changes were just a way to keep it different.

From the page.
Underground Monkeys are often Palette Swaps, meaning only the colors change, but don't have to be. As long as they're recycled versions of previous enemies, the changes between the different versions could be anything. You might have normal Goombas, winged Goombas, spiked Goombas... Even King Goomba could be considered a type of Underground Monkey.

edited 24th Dec '10 1:11:47 AM by Deboss

Page Action: Underground Monkey
11th May '11 12:08:12 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
There is a controversy about the name of the trope Underground Monkey. Rename it?

See the discussion thread here for information to make an educated vote with.

Total posts: 153
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