Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
Insert title here
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
To Otto. Even though the brutal regime he headed leads to Azulin's atrocities, I think the latter still outheinouses him by not just taking command from Otto and killing him, but also heading the final battle that leads to the deaths of all bears and unicorns in the forest.
Lizzid people!
I'm okay with Otto.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Otto. Azulin is nasty don't get me wrong. But I think Otto has his own unique nastiness that helps him qualify.
The Ultimate Lifeform
Well to make up for my last candidate falling through, I have someone who I am even more confident on, and who I KNOW has no mitigating factors!
What is the Work?
World of Warcraft is that one MMORPG we've all heard of, be it for its good aspects, its bad aspects or its plain weird aspects. Its had its ups and downs, but through it all, it has maintained a very rich lore. Today, we'll be looking at its Wrath of the Lich King Expansion, and no, it isn't Arthas who has a dying moment of Sympathy, nor Ner'Zhul who has a tragic backstory.
Eons ago, Azeroth was infected with four mountains of flesh born from the Void known as the Old Gods: Y'Shaarj, C'Thun, N'Zoth, and Yogg-Saron. The four Old Gods enslaved the local elemental populations, and conscripted a civilization of insects known as the Aqir to create the horrifying Black Empire.
Then everything changed when the Titans attacked. Y'Shaarj was destroyed outright by Amun'Thul, and C'Thun, and N'Zoth were imprisoned by the Titanforged. Yogg-Saron however, proved to be more stubborn due to being the second strongest Old God after Y'Shaarj. Yogg-Saron used his intelligent C'Thraxi minions to inflict substantial casualties upon the brave Titanforged who challenged him until the Titan Keeper Loken cast an illusion that disrupted the C'Thraxi, and allowed the Titanforged to lock away Yogg-Saron in the Titan prison city of Ulduar.
Unfortunately, this would not be the end of Yogg-Saron who was subdued, but not defeated. Yogg-Saron would start influencing Loken after he had an affair with fellow keeper Thorim's wife, resulting in her death. Yogg-Saron would then utilize Loken's shame over this to trick him into tricking Thorim that the frost giants had been responsible, leading to Thorim to wage war upon them in revenge. Loken would stop the war with an army of new Titanforged, who unbeknownst to him, Yogg-Saron had afflicted with the curse of flesh to make corrupting them easier, and at an unknown time, also corrupted the world tree Vordrassil after its roots grew too close to his prison. In doing so, Yogg-Saron created the Emerald Nightmare and enabled all the horrors that happened because of it, as well as mind raped the local Furbolg clans into insanity.
Yogg-Saron would then influence Loken into further driving a wedge into his fellow keepers leading to Yogg-Saron brainwashing Keeper Mimiron (who had previously had his body destroyed but was remade), and Keeper Freya, Thorim falling into even deeper despair, and Keeper Tyr being killed by Yogg-Saron's C'Thraxi servants. Worse still, Yogg-Saron got Loken to usurp Keeper Odyn as the Prime Designate, meaning that if Loken was ever slain, all life on Azeroth would end (something Yogg-Saron would be more than happy with) While the Old God's influence wouldn't spread much further than that for the time being, he still drove anyone who spent too long around saronite to madness.
In the modern day, Cho'Gall of the Twilight Hammer Clan managed to damage the bindings that restrained Yogg-Saron and allowed the Old God's influence to spread unchecked, ultimately claiming the mind of Keeper Thorim as well. The heroes of Azeroth then stormed Ulduar, freed the Keepers, and confronted Yogg-Saron. After a fierce battle, the Old God seemed defeated, but only time will tell if this holds true...
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
You're joking right? Yeah no. Yogg-Saron despises his fellow Old Gods, never acknowledges the deaths of his minions, and is a being of the Void who uses it for evil, despite others using it for good. I recall Loremaster saying that going forwards, we can assume all Old Gods to possess agency in their atrocities, as seen with N'Zoth.
Are they bad enough?
Yes. While what Yogg-Saron does isn't as expensive as N'Zoth, despite the latter being weaker, Yogg-Saron was also massively more restricted. Long before his demise in Battle for Azeroth, N'Zoth was basically free of whatever prison he may have once had. By contrast, Yogg-Saron had a whopping six of ten Titan Keepers maintaining his prison when he corrupted Loken, in addition to being tightly under lock, and key, meaning he makes up for being less heinous than N'Zoth by ironically having less resources. And he still managed to do a fair bit for what he did have, on top of N'Zoth's Emerald Nightmare antics only being possible because Yogg-Saron created the Nightmare.
Final Verdict?
I think he's a pretty easy CM. What do you all think?
Also, if and when Yogg-Saron returns, if he gets up voted, we can easily add more to his entry based on what he does following that.
Yes to Ramirez, Otto, and Salty Wounds.
I'll give a yes to Yogg Saron as well. Creating the Emerald Nightmare and the Curse of Flesh puts him well in range compared to N'Zoth.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Apr 26th 2024 at 7:28:59 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Yes to Yogg-Saron, Ramirez, Otto and Salt.
I’m plotting my schemes wherever I go! They’re perfect in every way…
Gentle Laborer
Salt and Ramirez
Lies and Violence!
Aye to Salt, Ramriez, and Yogg-Saron.
Calling the Dead Boy Detectives spinoff of The Sandman. Since I'm limited to three, I'll drop Claw since I doubt anyone else here is reading it.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Apr 26th 2024 at 10:28:08 AM
The Emperor of Evil!
to Ramirez, Salt, Otto (slight), and Yog-Saron.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Yogg-Saron
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
A Child from the Stars
for Yogg-Saron.
Yes to Otto, Leon, Salt-Upon-Wounds, Ramirez and Yogg-Saron.
I am going to propose my last NYPD Blue character, I am not sure about this guy. He is from the episodes ''I Love My Wives, But Oh You Kid" & "Stoli With a Twist":
Who is the AA Killer? What has he done?
Justin aka the AA Killer is a Serial Killer who targets women who go to Alcoholics Anonymous. Justin was raised by an alcoholic mother, who neglected him as a kid and paid more attention to her gentlemen callers over him. This left Justin bitter as an adult. Justin would go to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and would invite women with the most tragic stories out for coffee. He would then go back to the woman's apartment and would get her drunk. He would then strangle the woman and smear lipstick on her face, similar to how his mother's lipstick was smeared when she was drunk. Justin kills 4 women in this manner.
Andy Sipowicz and the other detectives get wise to the AA Killer's M.O and go to AA meetings undercover to find the AA killer. Detective Laura Murphy pretends to be an alcoholic who gave up a child for adoption in an AA and Justin invites her out to coffee and then to her apartment for drinks. Justin goes into his backstory and gets enraged with Murphy's seemingly cavalier attitudes towards drinking and sex. Justin tries to murder Murphy, but she pulls a gun on him and the other cops burst in and arrest him.
Is he heinious by the standards of the story?
This is where things get tricky, Justin has a body count of 4 kills and 1 attempted kill, which seem bad, but there are some pretty nasty serial killers in this series, the Webster Killer kills 10 to 12 people, Roger Squires stabs 6 women to death while groping them and Lucy Wenner rapes and kills 4 women and was going for a fifth victim. Even non-keepers like Steve Capers had a similar body count to the Webster Killer. I am not sure he does enough as a serial killer compared to those 3. Now this series went on for 12 years and most of the criminals in this show were petty thieves and crooks who maybe killed one guy in an episode, so these types of deranged serial killers were not super common and you could argue there was some psychological cruelty in his M.O.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
He does have an FE, he has an alcoholic mother who neglected him as a child. He even smears makeup on his victims in a similar manner to what happened to his mother's makeup when was drunk. Is that a good FE? Eh, I am not sure, it does seem to be the basis for his actions, but it does seem to be sexist, with Justin calling his victims bitches. However, Justin asks Murphy if she had another child, that child would see what he saw as a child and Murphy says it's possible, one could consider that potential empathy for these hypothetical children, but its somewhat ill-defined.
Final Verdict?
I am not sure about this guy.
Edited by Overlord on Apr 26th 2024 at 9:44:27 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
No to the AA Killer.
Edited by Bullman on Apr 26th 2024 at 1:32:23 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
RIP Toriyama
Yo Emerald, you're not limited to 3—you're limited to 3 ongoing, but if you know the release date/season finale date for a work, you have 5 of those to use. Dead Boy Detectives has an established season finale so you'd be fine to maintain your Claw res and also have that one.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 26th 2024 at 9:49:48 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Lies and Violence!
Aight, cool, forgot that. Thanks for the reminder!
Honestly leaning no on the AA killer, victim count is kind of meh and while the MO obviously sucks, it doesn't feel very standout.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Apr 26th 2024 at 12:54:54 PM
Goku Black
Yogg Saron
Kinda AAA killer. He doesn't seem quite bad enough.
on the AA killer because of his unimpressive bodycount and Freudian Excuse
Just a starting content creator
No to the battery killer.
Edited by AmateurStorytime on Apr 26th 2024 at 11:40:11 AM
Check out my YouTube channel! I make audiobooks and whatever else I feel like!
....Phenomenal
for Yogg.
for the Anti-Aircraft killer.
to Ramirez and Yogg-Saron
RIP Toriyama
Likewise gonna say no there, but good EP as always, Overlord!
Got one more Red Dead related post to make, that Krafty will follow up on shortly:
What's the work?
Red Dead Revolver is a 2004 game that is the "first" in the Red Dead series, albeit one completely separate from the later Redemption games in characters and even canon. See, the Big Bad, Governor Griffon, was once listed for CM, but he was cut thanks to a lackluster write-up and the fact that he didn't stack up to the villains in the Redemption duology...buuuuuuut it turns out Revolver is explicitly an alternate universe from the later games, so the heinous standard is self-contained. With that in mind? Krafty will be tackling Griffon, while for myself...
Who is Generalissimo Diego? What has he done?
- The other half of the Big Bad Duumvirate alongside Griffon, Generalissimo Javior Diego is a rogue Mexican military general who has created his own "Renegade Army" out of deserters and degenerates, built around criminal activity. Diego is introduced in a flashback where you play as him—he is using a bridge and route for smuggling, and when the U.S. military shows up to bring him in, Diego refuses to go down quietly and kicks off a bloody war against the U.S. army forces, killing dozens of soldiers.
- Casually ordering the execution of prisoners left, Diego is halted from one murder because the prisoner offers a team-up: the prisoner, Griffon himself, knows of a spot in thr nearby Bear Mountain that is full of gold, and is happy to share it with Diego, but first? They have to get rid of Griffon's partner, Nate Harlow, who helped him discover the gold. Diego sends his thugs to murder Nate, his wife Falling Star, and their teenage son Red, with only Red escaping the slaughter.
- Diego and Griffon then set up a nice little enterprise with the gold mine. With Griffon's finances, Diego would routinely slaughter caravans and battalions of U.S. soldiers, keeping a handful of survivors of each that he enslaves in the mines. Diego employs a variety of mercenaries and psycho killers as "pest control" to torture and murder any slaves who are troublesome, and even has a woman kept captive for implied sexual purposes.
- Now, the mining outfit faces one primary obstacle in the Red Wolf tribe, who consider Bear Mountain the mine resides in to be sacred burial ground. Diego and Griffon manipulate the rival Black Elk tribe into waging war on the Red Wolf tribe, arming the Black Elks and encouraging them to wipe out the Red Wolf tribe so that no one can stand in the way of the gold mining—sacred ground be damned.
- Our hero, Red himself, works with some allies to disrupt Diego's outfit, and though Diego's men murder Red's cousin and ally Shadow Wolf, Red corners Diego who promptly pleads for his life and offers Red any riches he may want, only for Red to coldly execute Diego where he stands.
Mitigating features?
None whatsoever, a Sociopathic Soldier driven by greed and a cheerful sadism, who threatens his own men regularly and values Griffon solely as a business partner. He did pay for his right hand man to get a replacement arm after Red shot it off, but it's noted that it was beneficial to Diego to do so—he gave said right hand man a cannon for a new arm and it was "helpful to have" that kind of firepower.
Heinousness?
If Revolver actually did share a standard with Redemption, then it'd be a much harder sell with Fussar, Favours, Allende running around...buuuut as this is actually its own universe? Diego is the worst in the canon alongside Griffon. He worked with Griffon to murder Red's parents and create a mass slavery outfit while scheming the extermination of the Red Wolf tribe, and he's introduced massacring dozens of U.S. army soldiers who try to take him in. Plenty bad.
Final Verdict?
Eyep!
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Lowry, Wriggles, Otto, Ramirez, Leon, Salt Upon Wounds, Whately, Blood and Eye, Yogg-Saron, and Diego.
No to Aziz and the AA killer.
Edited by MasterWaldon on Apr 27th 2024 at 12:27:04 PM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]")
for Ramirez, Salt, and I think Otto? Might change later.
"If we're gonna play Owl House, we're gonna NEED an Owl House!"