Are Pachelbel's Canon Progression and The Four Chords Of Pop tropeworthy?

I'm asking this here because I've written up a TLP for the "Royal Road" Progression, similar to those two pages, and this very issue has come up because of an inability to contextualize examples beyond "These songs use the chord progression."

The way I see it, if The Four Chords of Pop and "Pachelbel's Canon" Progression are tropeworthy, being common musical chord progressions, then so is this. They are deliberate stylistic choices for the structure and sound of a song. The problem is, given that it's just chord progressions, it's extremely difficult to contextualize how such a choice is used. Most tropes have a clear subject and/or action, that they apply to. All three of these are stylistic choices (the song itself is the subject of the trope, so to speak), but there's no real easy way to describe how it applies to non-musicians (and even musicians who aren't experts).

It is worth pointing out, both "Pachelbel's Canon" Progression and The Four Chords of Pop date all the way back to at least 2010 when edit history started getting logged.

Basically, I feel like if those two are tropeworthy, then so is "Royal Road". If they need to be workshopped due to the lack of context in almost all examples, then they can be put through TRS, and the end result can also be applied to RRP. And if it's deemed they're not tropeworthy at all, then they can be removed, and RRP won't be launched.

(If this is the wrong forum to ask this question, lemme know and I'll put it in the right place)

Edited by Rytex on Oct 8th 2022 at 6:47:52 AM

I believe it's probably a trope (and the wiki can do with more music theory tropes) but the draft is full of ZCEs. What is the significance of this particular chord progression? Does it associate the work with a particular genre or setting (like the Minsky Pickup), or provoke a particular emotional response (like the "Pachelbel's Canon" Progression or Shave And A Haircut)?

Based on the videos I've watched that gave me the idea, it sounds like the idea behind this chord is that it adds a sense of melodrama, which is why it's so popular when used in songs that serve as anime title songs. It's bright, but with a moody, wistful undertone behind it. Unlike other common chords, it doesn't resolve itself in a "satisfied" way like other progressions do, but like "Pachelbel's Canon" Progression, it naturally leads into another progression (PCP tends to lead into itself; RRP often then leads into something else in the East). It gives a sense of drama and emotion.

It's also worth pointing out, "odo shinko" probably most closely means "well-trodden path" in English, rather than some regal highway. So its very name refers to how popular and widely used it is.

I'll add this to the TLP.

Edited by Rytex on Oct 10th 2022 at 9:33:07 AM

EDIT: Never mind, that article is Useful Notes, not a trope.

Still, if it needs to be an example-less trope if we can't give proper context to any applicable examples, I'm not opposed.

Edited by Rytex on Oct 10th 2022 at 9:45:13 AM

Is "song in X work has this trope at this part of the song" sufficient context for tropes like this? If it isn't, then most of these music theory tropes have massive ZCE issues.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Oct 10th 2022 at 9:57:47 AM

I believe that the missing detail is how the emotional context fits into the work. Pachelbel's is useful for melancholic statements, which blend well with "listen to me whine". Modify the time and I think it would make a good cadence song for marching/running. Examples of tropes (all, not just musical theory) need to describe the purpose that the trope is being put to in the work. What is the effect of using this chord?

The reason I questioned if these are "tropes" is because tropes are supposed to affect a narrative, right? I'm not sure musical theory actually qualifies as such if it doesn't ultimately help the song turn into a story.

And yeah, if Pachelbel's Canon is used to make the songs more emotional, great — but that has yet to be demonstrated and it's not what the "trope" is actually about right now.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 10th 2022 at 1:21:17 PM

I think they are totally valid music theory but if they don't contribute anything in the vein of narrative heft besides 'this is common', they are not tropes.

Art and Music tropes are already specifically exempted from 'narrative' because they don't usually have one - at least not one expressed through words, which is the way it's usually meant on this wiki because of its original focus, but is overly narrow. A narrative in a piece of art unfolds from what part of a painting catches the eye first, what emotional or graphic impression it has, and then how the eye is guided around the rest of the image absorbing more details and adding nuance to that initial impression. (An intentional lack of guidance conveys a sense of chaos, much like the Dutch Angle conveys a feeling of precariousness.) The narrative of Pachelbel's Canon unfolds similarly through how the audience feels as the song proceeds, what the individual notes and chords suggest, how the left and right hands contrast and support each other, when the tune simplifies or becomes more complex. All of this is tropeable - it simply hasn't been troped, because there aren't enough art and music theory enthusiasts involved on the wiki, but I hardly think that's a reason to discourage them from contributing as long as a consistent meaning can be established in its use.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Oct 10th 2022 at 9:13:25 AM

I disagree that art tropes lack a narrative. Art is all about conveying information, emotions, or narratives through imagery and symbolism. Everything from framing to color choices to canvas size can be meaningful.

Music can do the same thing, but our tropes on musical theory aren't about conveying information, they're just about common musical things that don't necessarily mean anything.

Like I said, Pachelbel's Canon might be perfectly tropeworthy... but we need to actually trope how and why it's used, not just that it's used.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 10th 2022 at 4:16:24 AM

Then we're on the same page.

Minsky Pickup is a decent standard the other individual music phrase tropes could be held to, I think. I haven't looked at them all in detail (Three Chords and the Truth, for example), but "Pachelbel's Canon" Progression has only the one-line mention of what emotion it conveys in the description that isn't reflected in any of the examples and could definitely use some repair, as shown by the TLP draft. We do want to be able to point to quality trope pages for comparison for new ones.

I wonder if it might be worth establishing a "ZCEs in music tropes" cleanup project thread? I'm not usually involved in that part of the forum so I'm not sure how it works.

Oh boy, I have complex feelings on this one.

For starters, just because a trope is hard to provide context (or non-redundant context) for, that doesn't make it less of a trope. Oftentimes, a concerted effort to provide context will be enough, but not always. No-Neck Chump, Duck!, "Psycho" Strings, and Ribcage Stomach are good examples. Even ignoring blatant ZCEs, There's only so many ways to say "this guy has no neck" or "a pun using both definitions of 'duck' came up."

Likewise, if we did cut (or more moderately, stopped) any new tropes that weren't narratively significant, that would also cut off game mechanics. Personally, I find that standard far too narrow.

My personal proposal is to continue with music theory tropes, but make extra effort to explain the musical ideas that usually come into play in the description, and take an active effort in TLP to cultivate strong examples for others to follow.

I don't think game mechanics would be cut or not happen anymore due to these standards, since it is still a form of storytelling, just in an interactive form.

As for music theory tropes, I think the tricky thing here is that music can tell a story, but not all music does. For example, in the classical world there's the Symphonic poem and Program music, which explicitly tell a story through the music in different ways. But there's also Absolute music, which explicitly doesn't convey any meaning at all beyond the music itself.

To address both of your points simultaneously, we can trope non-representational games like Tetris or Bejeweled through their game mechanics despite them having no inherently narrative content. (A gameplay loop is a good example of the kind of non-verbal narrative structure I mentioned earlier, but whether it is or not it counts as "narrative" it's still analogous to absolute music, as I understand it.)

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Oct 14th 2022 at 12:18:00 PM