M.U.G.E.N Cleanup

(I've initially wanted to do a wider cleanup, but pages like Touhou Project and Super Mario Maker seem to be clean from user-generated content troping and I may be misremembering them, so let's focus on one until something is brought up.)

M.U.G.E.N is a mod making tool, meaning literally anything a user wants can happen with no mod more notable than the other. Its page explicitly says "its community, and even some games made with the engine include the following tropes" in the trope list, which is straight against our policy on Real-Life Troping.

It was brought up a few times, but I'd like to confirm this is not kosher and should be cleaned up, including subpages, meaning disallowing meta examples and troping fan content made in M.U.G.E.N, unless they get own pages.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Well, should we keep the stuff on gameplay on their respective pages? I've seen Lethal Joke Character and and Mechanically Unusual Fighter have pretty meaty sections about M.U.G.E.N characters.

Hi!

Will review the page with Sandbox.MUGEN. Up to "B" examples so far.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Okay, the sandbox is done. It's almost entirely meta-examples, but still salvageable.

If people want to keep them that badly, maybe it could be soft-split, but that'd be kinda not in site's principles.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 2nd 2022 at 8:39:47 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Wait, where was it decided that MUGEN-only characters and characters that don't come from a fighting game and have custom attacks/sprites (using Alphys, off the top of my head, as an example) don't belong on the page?

This thread is to get that decision. And not sure why signle out "Mugen-OC and not from fighting games" characters, the proposal is to remove or separate all non-vanilla content period. The reasoning is:

1. The page is about Mugen as a tool, so it's logical the tropes should be describing Mugen's technical capabilities and not what was specifically created with it. We don't trope individual unofficial Super Mario Maker levels on SMM page. Individual mods and Recurring Fanon Character can be listed in separate pages like any Game Mod.

2. There's no consistency for these characters due to Depending on the Writer. Said Alphys may be 50-foot tall, die in one hit, shoot ligtning, self-duplicate, shake screen and etc. if the player wants to, and any character can be made to act like any other character.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 15th 2022 at 4:16:10 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Uh Amonimus, I think you mean "thread"?

You're very welcome.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Nov 15th 2022 at 8:18:26 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Yes, thanks.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 15th 2022 at 4:16:34 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

How does this compare to Fighter Maker or Kakuge Yaro? I was about to bring up RPG Maker, but I don't know when it was turned into a Useful Notes.

Any mass cut means a lot of new subpages for creators if they're sufficiently popular, which seems like a potential mess. I'm aware the mindset with most TRS stuff is "it's up to the users if the affected page to clean it up", but I'm not sure if the solution is to have a bunch of random trope pages for creators who likely aren't in the MUGEN community anymore because they made a popular Wolverine edit.

I don't mean stuff like The Black Heart or the other mods that have subpages.

Also, to clarify regarding "if there are multiple variations, it's not tropable" bit: Is it any different from fighting games having characters have different mechanics between games, especially crossover games? I can understand having base/vanilla characters removed for being redundant with the original pages.

Edited by WELCOME_BRIGADOR on Nov 15th 2022 at 5:24:25 AM

Fighter Maker doesn't have this problem, mostly by not having many tropes to begin with, and all characters mentioned come with the package. Kakuge Yaro doesn't have this problem, mostly by not having many tropes to begin with, and all characters mentioned come with the package. (Actually, that one may be a ZCE stub by the looks of it.)

RPG Maker has been turned into Useful Notes and has no tropes because it's not an actual videogame, aside from being a pure software tool it doesn't have any default content as far as I'm aware.

"if the solution is to have a bunch of random trope pages for creators..." Cutting everything marked sounds like a reasonable option to me due to previous arguments, but if more people can share input on it, I can compromise to just splitting the page into vanilla and all the mods in two folders.

"Is it any different from fighting games". There can only be a limited number variations of a fighter by the commercial works made by the same company. If say Capcom and anohter company behind crossovers changed Zangrief's personality overall 20 times, Media Adaptation Tropes would apply because it's Capcom changing own content as they see fit or supervising and allowing another company doing so. If, say a Newgrounds OC made appearance in 20 fangames, 5 of which are by the OC's own creator, then only 5 of them are real, and the rest are Fan Works/.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

The "original" aspects of MUGEN probably aren't tropeable. It may be worth just shunting this off to UsefulNotes/.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.

Kung Fu Man is tropable, but that's about it.

Wouldn't the default assets of RPG Maker be tropable? Granted a lot of the tropes I could think of with that would be along the lines of "X Monster Trope: X Monster is available as an enemy in the assets."

I write stupid crap about naked people.

It's possibly tropable, but a list of sprite sheets is unlikely to make a work page.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

To use your example, most monster tropes aren't just "this monster is in this work", but they pertain to how the work portrays them. Just because you have a dragon asset doesn't mean the dragon in your game will be written the same as the dragon in my game.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I also don't think monster tropes are usable if there's no default scenario/mechanics where the monsters are used.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Okay, I see.

About MUGEN's tropability: By default there's a small story about Kung Fu Man's girlfriend being captured by Swave Dude's minions and him fighting his own evil clone. It isn't much, it's meant to be silly (what with the fourth wall-breaking ending in that KFM can't fight Swave Dude because the character wasn't made), but it's tropable and comes with the base engine.

I write stupid crap about naked people.

I'm not aware of any specific policy against having player-created content on the main work page. Crazysamaritan also assumed this wasn't against policy back in 2021, and Fighteer understood this perspective while also disagreeing with it, which suggests that we may need more discussion before deciding if we want it.

edit: I agree that if we keep it, it would be a good idea to put it in its own section. I did that myself with Everybody Edits Flash.

This may be true (I haven't looked through every SMM example), but there's precedent on other pages, including TearJerker.Super Mario Maker, Happy Wheels, Geometry Dash, VVVVVV Custom Levels, and Minecraft Adventure Maps.

Edited by N1KF on Dec 9th 2022 at 12:59:39 PM

It's OK to mention derivative works by name, on the main work page. Troping their content there, though, is usually not OK unless the author(s) of the original work treat a given derivative work as an integral component of the work; say if it's a sequel or prequel and we are troping them all together on the same page.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

• Happy Wheels still mostly describes default or common content.
• Geometry Dash still describes general gameplay.
• VVVVVV Custom Levels and Minecraft Adventure Maps are, self-evidently, split from VVVVVV and Minecraft and are treated as mods.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Is it alright if I cut Gainaxing from the sandbox? It's now definition only and doesn't allow examples on work pages.

My troper wall

Sure.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

My concern is that the tropes on fan content would be cut in a cleanup thread, without considering what this means for other pages. There is inconsistently sorted content of this nature on other pages and we need a more general solution.

The non-canon subpages getting cut was done after getting consensus in Wiki Talk. Those examples sounds like they were worse than this—no proper work page, and apparently high reliance on web links. If that can get a discussion first, I think this should as well. I've already made a thread on the subject and it has yet to reach clear consensus on any decision (as far as I can tell).

That said, I'm not against this cleanup. I'm fine with cutting Real Life Troping like the Digital Piracy Is Evil example, but I disagree with OP's approach on cutting tropes on fan content and think it needs more discussion in the proper place.

"The non-canon subpages getting cut was done after getting consensus in Wiki Talk."

Then it looks even easier and can be carried onto UGC discussion as well. Since Mugen Edits don't have own pages and are listed on Mugen's main page instead, they just don't belong.

Also noting that the Non-Canon Cleanup is still open.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

edit: Just realized my thread was revived, so I'll post there instead.

Edited by N1KF on Dec 12th 2022 at 12:53:34 PM