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MegaMarioMan Pictured Above: Totally Mario from The Milky Way Galaxy Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Pictured Above: Totally Mario
Nov 15th 2016 at 7:31:29 AM

A recurring argument on TV Tropes is about the presence of Non-Canon Pages: that is, a page that lists cool, funny, nightmarish, saddening, etc. fanworks relating to the page it spawned from. The story of this argument goes back to October of 2015.

This was originally brought up by lalalei2001 in this thread created last October, and while discussion was vibrant, consensus was never reached on whether the pages should be allowed to stay.

Later in October 2015, lalalei opened another discussion (stating it to be a continuation of the previous one), in reference to TearJerker.Undertale Non Canon, which was promptly thrown onto the Cutlist due to being an All-Blue Entry consisting of weblinks, which, as we know, are not examples. bwburke94 also pointed out that the previous discussion never reached consensus.

In January of 2016, I created yet another discussion about Non-Canon pages. Fighteer suggested leaving the decision to Troper consensus and making a forum thread for the subject, but nobody did either. He then said that ""What some dude on Tumblr believes about Work X" is not an example of anything in Work X and we should not give it the dignity of a wiki article." The following replies showed disdain for Non-Canon pages and karxrida suggested that anything relating to fanworks should be put in the proper place and the Non-Canon pages should be Cutlisted.

In August of 2016, lalalei bumped her original topic up to bring up Awesome.Steven Universe Non Canon being mainly weblinks and a post calling out people. Consensus remained unreached and the discussion died down again.

On the 8th of November, 2016 Androne-5 asked if, since Undertale has a Non-Canon funny page, if he could make some in the other namespaces. There, TropesForever made reference to the earlier discussions, I appeared and recapped everything listed above in a more concise manner, and then TropesForever suggested that we find Troper consensus, fitting with what Fighteer said about forming Troper consensus on this subject. After that, other Tropers began to voice their dislike of Non-Canon pages, coming to a total of 7 people agreeing that Non-Canon subpages should be cut. lalalei then suggested that a forum thread be made, with Fighteer agreeing.

So now, we have this thread for discussion.

edited 15th Nov '16 7:36:03 AM by MegaMarioMan

Space. It's huge. So huge, in fact, that if you lost your car keys in it, they would be almost impossible to find. -Captain Qwark
TotemicHero Not a bug! from the next level
Not a bug!
Nov 15th 2016 at 7:35:27 AM

Sounds like an end run around using the fanfic recommendation pages, from my view. (Being able to recommend a fic without actually following the guidelines on those pages is apparently appealing.)

Cutting them, and telling people to put those things in their proper place, seems like an fair answer. Outside of people who just hate those rec guidelines, I'm not sure how these pages could be defended.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Larkmarn Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Nov 15th 2016 at 7:42:55 AM

I say cut.

Anything of genuine value (recommending fanworks that are actual WORKS instead of one-off pieces of art, for example) is accomplished by Fanfic Recs. But mostly they're just weblinks to a single piece of art or a blog or even message board posts compiled for... some reason.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Nov 15th 2016 at 7:47:14 AM

It would be useful to get an enumeration of "non-canon" articles with metrics of popularity such as wicks and inbounds.

Please join the namespace configuration project!
Nov 15th 2016 at 7:52:15 AM

I'd say kill 'em with fire, if only to get rid of all the entries that are literally just a link to some deviantart page or other. Sure, there's great fanart out there, but I'm not convinced we need to keep a record of it all.

Also, I have seen non-canon pages be used as an end run around the rule against importing fandom drama, so that's another strike against them.

edited 15th Nov '16 7:53:54 AM by Virodhi

TotemicHero Not a bug! from the next level
Not a bug!
Nov 15th 2016 at 8:01:05 AM

A few examples:

Funny.Undertale Non Canon - 2 wicks, 3,853 inbounds
Awesome.Steven Universe Non Canon - 3 wicks, 946 inbounds
Funny.Steven Universe Non Canon - 3 wicks, 4,436 inbounds
Heartwarming.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon - 3 wicks, 2,274 inbounds
Funny.Gravity Falls Non Canon - 2 wicks, 1,241 inbounds

While those inbounds seem high, you have to put them in perspective with their respective fanbases. For example, the main work page for Steven Universe has over 120,000 inbounds; the non-canon pages there are but a drop in a bucket in comparison.

edited 15th Nov '16 8:01:16 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
MegaMarioMan Pictured Above: Totally Mario from The Milky Way Galaxy Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Pictured Above: Totally Mario
Nov 15th 2016 at 8:04:11 AM

There's a lot more than this but this is all I have time for right now. More can be found in my January 2016 ATT Thread.

Steven Universe Non-Canon Info:

FNAF4 Non-Canon Info:

MLP: FiM Non-Canon Info:

Space. It's huge. So huge, in fact, that if you lost your car keys in it, they would be almost impossible to find. -Captain Qwark
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Nov 15th 2016 at 8:16:58 AM

Technically, non-canon works should be treated the same as fanfics. This is where There Is No Such Thing as Notability comes into play. Fanworks are still works, and can be troped.

On the other hand, work subpages are for the original works, not for any derivative works. A fandom is also not a work. It's also not a collection of works like a franchise. It's just a random assortment of works where the only connection is the source material. I don't think those belong on the same page.

Also just clicked on the above-mentioned pages for some examples of the pages to see what it was about. Mostly just a link pages. No context. NightmareFuel.Five Nights At Freddys 4 Non Canon is okay (as far as context goes, anyway), and TearJerker.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon isn't completely crap.

Doesn't matter if it's YMMV. Context is still required. Weblinks Are Not Examples.

edited 15th Nov '16 8:17:55 AM by AnotherDuck

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nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Nov 15th 2016 at 11:45:06 AM

To be honest, I'm not sure what harm these pages are doing such that people are demanding their immediate destruction. (It wouldn't surprise me if many of them had individual problems, but that's a characteristic of YMMV pages in general).

Irene I am a Real American from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
I am a Real American
Nov 15th 2016 at 12:10:02 PM

I cannot really see how they're harming the wiki at all.

But I do agree that there's a problem with "Weblinks are not examples". Cleaning that up should be a good priority. It's just another set of YMMV pages. As long as the examples have context, it's not really an issue.

Omega Psycho Rangers Quest 64 Discord(very much safe for work)
TropesForever Nowhere Man from Tropesburg Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Nowhere Man
Nov 15th 2016 at 12:17:28 PM

The problems are:

  1. Most of them aren't works, they're just blogs or fanart, which aren't really tropeable.
  2. The ones which actually are works can have their own pages with actual effort put into them, instead of just a collection of random links.
  • There are no guidelines about them at all, unlike work pages or Fanfic Recs. People add examples that are just Weblinks, and I wouldn't be surprised if most examples are just people pimping their own work. That's not technically against the rules, but not something we want to encourage, especially on a page that's never policed.

Have I died and gone to heaven?
SeptimusHeap Tadpole! from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Tadpole!
Nov 15th 2016 at 12:21:58 PM

  1. These can be works, actually.
  2. Work pages need a lot more work.

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Nov 15th 2016 at 12:34:11 PM

I don't quite agree on the problems as you see them.

  1. Fanart/blogs/twitter feeds are tropable, but I still object to attaching it to the original work. Absolutely do not invent subpages to a non-work. Undertale Non Canon has no work page. Funny.Undertale Non Canon is a subpage to nothing.
    • It is a problem because people are not creating/maintaining our wiki's professional standards. It suggests that we can have unattached subpages for whatever strikes our fancy.
  2. Creating the work pages is acceptable to me. Listing contextual examples of fan-generated works on trope pages, and on their own work pages are acceptable. Mention what they are derivative of.
    • It is a problem because "random links everywhere" is more like a bookmarks/index page than explaining a trope.

TropesForever Nowhere Man from Tropesburg Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Nowhere Man
Nov 15th 2016 at 12:41:52 PM

Well, okay, I guess fanart can count as a work. But the websites cleanup thread says blogs and Twitter feeds don't count as works.

Have I died and gone to heaven?
TuefelHundenIV Watchman of the Apocalypse from Wandering Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Nov 15th 2016 at 7:39:58 PM

I say split the difference in three ways. Create works pages for the actual works, shift what needs to be on fan fic rec there, and what is left is dross and should be cut.

"Who watches the watchmen?"
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Nov 15th 2016 at 7:43:57 PM

Fanart/blogs/twitter feeds are tropable, but I still object to attaching it to the original work.
This is basically my main objection to those pages. They're misplaced. As I said before, it's fine to trope them, if they're tropable works (which fanworks are, including fanart, but not blogs and twitter feeds that amount to troping communities, which we don't do), but they're not part of the original work, so they shouldn't be there.

Check out my fanfiction!
MegaMarioMan Pictured Above: Totally Mario from The Milky Way Galaxy Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Pictured Above: Totally Mario
Nov 16th 2016 at 6:12:01 AM

I could understand fanart being tropable if it's part of a series of fanarts, something I'm sure is listed somewhere on one of those pages.

The thing is, is making a trope page for a one-off artwork really necessary? I agree with Larkmarn and TuefelHunding in this respect: take anything actually worth having its own page and put it there, put fanfic recs on Fanfic Recs, and throw out the rest of it. We have fanart on the site, and even fanart for the site, but we don't need to host other people's fanart because other people think the art is cool enough to get a page. As said by crazysamaritan, it's "like a bookmarks/index page" and this site isn't the place for that.

If you really want to make a trope list for a one-off fanart, or blog post, or series of message board posts, try doing one here and seeing if the amount of tropes is enough for it to be deserving of a page. No shoehorns, no Weasel Words, no arguable examples. Just straight examples of any tropes applied within.

Space. It's huge. So huge, in fact, that if you lost your car keys in it, they would be almost impossible to find. -Captain Qwark
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Nov 16th 2016 at 6:25:12 AM

While fan art is technically a work, we don't trope individual paintings or drawings; there's just nothing substantial enough to merit articles for them. Blogs, Twitter feeds, forum posts: it's all too nebulous. Having a DeviantArt page or YouTube channel doesn't qualify you for a Creator article, either; you must have done something that merits troping as a discrete work.

I agree with the proposed solution: migrate anything that can go to proper articles, such as Fan Fic Recs or the Fanworks index, murder the rest.

edited 16th Nov '16 11:34:09 AM by Fighteer

Please join the namespace configuration project!
TropesForever Nowhere Man from Tropesburg Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Nowhere Man
Nov 16th 2016 at 11:31:53 AM

[up][tup] That's what I meant, but I'm terrible at making myself clear.

Have I died and gone to heaven?
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Nov 16th 2016 at 1:16:10 PM

Full list of non-canon pages (using the wiki title search tool):

edited 16th Nov '16 1:16:36 PM by Fighteer

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TPPR10 Local Man Brings Rice from Suomus Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Local Man Brings Rice
Nov 17th 2016 at 7:26:51 AM

[up] There's a "The Reason You Suck" Speech page for non-canon MLP:FIM stuff? Christ, I knew that the MLP:FIM side of this wiki was large, but that takes the cake.

Eat, shoot, repeat
MegaMarioMan Pictured Above: Totally Mario from The Milky Way Galaxy Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Pictured Above: Totally Mario
Nov 17th 2016 at 10:20:32 AM

Should we list the wicks and inbounds for all of those here?

Space. It's huge. So huge, in fact, that if you lost your car keys in it, they would be almost impossible to find. -Captain Qwark
Fighteer MOD Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Nov 17th 2016 at 11:47:35 AM

[up] No need. We seem to have broad consensus that the Non-Canon pages should be scrubbed. The goals are as follows:

  • While each article is being worked on, place a prominent note at the top linking to the cleanup thread.
  • Transplant examples on these pages to more appropriate venues if possible. These can include Fanworks, Fanfic Recs, and articles for specific fics if it's a trope example.
  • Examples that should be left off include any that do not reference a discrete work or that reference fan art, blogs/forum posts, or other things that would not be eligible for a wiki article.
  • After each article is pronounced clean, submit it to the Cut List. It will be cut and locked to prevent re-creation.

I will create a Short-Term Projects topic listing these goals and linking back to this thread. Please move the work there. We won't lock this thread unless it devolves.

edited 17th Nov '16 11:47:53 AM by Fighteer

Please join the namespace configuration project!
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
SeptimusHeap Tadpole! from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Tadpole!
Nov 20th 2016 at 8:53:37 AM

Closing this, then.


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