Non-Canon Pages

A recurring argument on TV Tropes is about the presence of Non-Canon Pages: that is, a page that lists cool, funny, nightmarish, saddening, etc. fanworks relating to the page it spawned from. The story of this argument goes back to October of 2015.

This was originally brought up by lalalei2001 in this thread created last October, and while discussion was vibrant, consensus was never reached on whether the pages should be allowed to stay.

Later in October 2015, lalalei opened another discussion (stating it to be a continuation of the previous one), in reference to TearJerker.Undertale Non Canon, which was promptly thrown onto the Cutlist due to being an All Blue Entry consisting of weblinks, which, as we know, are not examples. bwburke94 also pointed out that the previous discussion never reached consensus.

In January of 2016, I created yet another discussion about Non-Canon pages. Fighteer suggested leaving the decision to Troper consensus and making a forum thread for the subject, but nobody did either. He then said that ""What some dude on Tumblr believes about Work X" is not an example of anything in Work X and we should not give it the dignity of a wiki article." The following replies showed disdain for Non-Canon pages and karxrida suggested that anything relating to fanworks should be put in the proper place and the Non-Canon pages should be Cutlisted.

In August of 2016, lalalei bumped her original topic up to bring up Awesome.Steven Universe Non Canon being mainly weblinks and a post calling out people. Consensus remained unreached and the discussion died down again.

On the 8th of November, 2016 Androne-5 asked if, since Undertale has a Non-Canon funny page, if he could make some in the other namespaces. There, TropesForever made reference to the earlier discussions, I appeared and recapped everything listed above in a more concise manner, and then TropesForever suggested that we find Troper consensus, fitting with what Fighteer said about forming Troper consensus on this subject. After that, other Tropers began to voice their dislike of Non-Canon pages, coming to a total of 7 people agreeing that Non-Canon subpages should be cut. lalalei then suggested that a forum thread be made, with Fighteer agreeing.

So now, we have this thread for discussion.

edited 15th Nov '16 7:36:03 AM by MegaMarioMan

"Come on! Let's get this show on the road."

Sounds like an end run around using the fanfic recommendation pages, from my view. (Being able to recommend a fic without actually following the guidelines on those pages is apparently appealing.)

Cutting them, and telling people to put those things in their proper place, seems like an fair answer. Outside of people who just hate those rec guidelines, I'm not sure how these pages could be defended.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

I say cut.

Anything of genuine value (recommending fanworks that are actual WORKS instead of one-off pieces of art, for example) is accomplished by Fanfic Recs. But mostly they're just weblinks to a single piece of art or a blog or even message board posts compiled for... some reason.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

It would be useful to get an enumeration of "non-canon" articles with metrics of popularity such as wicks and inbounds.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I'd say kill 'em with fire, if only to get rid of all the entries that are literally just a link to some deviantart page or other. Sure, there's great fanart out there, but I'm not convinced we need to keep a record of it all.

Also, I have seen non-canon pages be used as an end run around the rule against importing fandom drama, so that's another strike against them.

edited 15th Nov '16 7:53:54 AM by Virodhi

A few examples:

Funny.Undertale Non Canon - 2 wicks, 3,853 inbounds
Awesome.Steven Universe Non Canon - 3 wicks, 946 inbounds
Funny.Steven Universe Non Canon - 3 wicks, 4,436 inbounds
Heartwarming.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon - 3 wicks, 2,274 inbounds
Funny.Gravity Falls Non Canon - 2 wicks, 1,241 inbounds

While those inbounds seem high, you have to put them in perspective with their respective fanbases. For example, the main work page for Steven Universe has over 120,000 inbounds; the non-canon pages there are but a drop in a bucket in comparison.

edited 15th Nov '16 8:01:16 AM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

There's a lot more than this but this is all I have time for right now. More can be found in my January 2016 ATT Thread.

Steven Universe Non-Canon Info:

• Awesome.Steven Universe Non Canon: 3 wicks, 946 inbounds
• Funny.Steven Universe Non Canon: 3 wicks, 4,436 inbounds
• Heartwarming.Steven Universe Non Canon: 2 wicks, 2,089 inbounds
• NightmareFuel.Steven Universe Non Canon: 2 wicks, 3,371 inbounds
• TearJerker.Steven Universe Non Canon: 2 wicks, 2,527 inbounds

FNAF4 Non-Canon Info:

• NightmareFuel.Five Nights At Freddys 4 Non Canon: 3 wicks, 496 inbounds

MLP: FiM Non-Canon Info:

• Awesome.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon: 3 wicks, 1,767 inbounds
• AwesomeMusic.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon: 4 wicks, 541 inbounds
• Funny.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon: 3 wicks, 3,149 inbounds
• Heartwarming.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon: 3 wicks, 2,274 inbounds
• NightmareFuel.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon: 7 wicks, 1,039 inbounds
• TearJerker.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon: 3 wicks, 3,876 inbounds
• TheReasonYouSuckSpeech.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon(?!): 3 wicks, 12 inbounds

"Come on! Let's get this show on the road."

Technically, non-canon works should be treated the same as fanfics. This is where There Is No Such Thing as Notability comes into play. Fanworks are still works, and can be troped.

On the other hand, work subpages are for the original works, not for any derivative works. A fandom is also not a work. It's also not a collection of works like a franchise. It's just a random assortment of works where the only connection is the source material. I don't think those belong on the same page.

Also just clicked on the above-mentioned pages for some examples of the pages to see what it was about. Mostly just a link pages. No context. NightmareFuel.Five Nights At Freddys 4 Non Canon is okay (as far as context goes, anyway), and TearJerker.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon isn't completely crap.

Doesn't matter if it's YMMV. Context is still required. Weblinks Are Not Examples.

edited 15th Nov '16 8:17:55 AM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!

To be honest, I'm not sure what harm these pages are doing such that people are demanding their immediate destruction. (It wouldn't surprise me if many of them had individual problems, but that's a characteristic of YMMV pages in general).

I cannot really see how they're harming the wiki at all.

But I do agree that there's a problem with "Weblinks are not examples". Cleaning that up should be a good priority. It's just another set of YMMV pages. As long as the examples have context, it's not really an issue.

...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.

The problems are:

1. Most of them aren't works, they're just blogs or fanart, which aren't really tropeable.
2. The ones which actually are works can have their own pages with actual effort put into them, instead of just a collection of random links.

• There are no guidelines about them at all, unlike work pages or Fanfic Recs. People add examples that are just Weblinks, and I wouldn't be surprised if most examples are just people pimping their own work. That's not technically against the rules, but not something we want to encourage, especially on a page that's never policed.

1. These can be works, actually.
2. Work pages need a lot more work.

• Examples that are just weblinks should be pulled per Weblinks Are Not Examples.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I don't quite agree on the problems as you see them.

1. Fanart/blogs/twitter feeds are tropable, but I still object to attaching it to the original work. Absolutely do not invent subpages to a non-work. Undertale Non Canon has no work page. Funny.Undertale Non Canon is a subpage to nothing.
   • It is a problem because people are not creating/maintaining our wiki's professional standards. It suggests that we can have unattached subpages for whatever strikes our fancy.
2. Creating the work pages is acceptable to me. Listing contextual examples of fan-generated works on trope pages, and on their own work pages are acceptable. Mention what they are derivative of.
   • It is a problem because "random links everywhere" is more like a bookmarks/index page than explaining a trope.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Well, okay, I guess fanart can count as a work. But the websites cleanup thread says blogs and Twitter feeds don't count as works.

I say split the difference in three ways. Create works pages for the actual works, shift what needs to be on fan fic rec there, and what is left is dross and should be cut.

Who watches the watchmen?

This is basically my main objection to those pages. They're misplaced. As I said before, it's fine to trope them, if they're tropable works (which fanworks are, including fanart, but not blogs and twitter feeds that amount to troping communities, which we don't do), but they're not part of the original work, so they shouldn't be there.

Check out my fanfiction!

I could understand fanart being tropable if it's part of a series of fanarts, something I'm sure is listed somewhere on one of those pages.

The thing is, is making a trope page for a one-off artwork really necessary? I agree with Larkmarn and TuefelHunding in this respect: take anything actually worth having its own page and put it there, put fanfic recs on Fanfic Recs, and throw out the rest of it. We have fanart on the site, and even fanart for the site, but we don't need to host other people's fanart because other people think the art is cool enough to get a page. As said by crazysamaritan, it's "like a bookmarks/index page" and this site isn't the place for that.

If you really want to make a trope list for a one-off fanart, or blog post, or series of message board posts, try doing one here and seeing if the amount of tropes is enough for it to be deserving of a page. No shoehorns, no Weasel Words, no arguable examples. Just straight examples of any tropes applied within.

"Come on! Let's get this show on the road."

While fan art is technically a work, we don't trope individual paintings or drawings; there's just nothing substantial enough to merit articles for them. Blogs, Twitter feeds, forum posts: it's all too nebulous. Having a DeviantArt page or You Tube channel doesn't qualify you for a Creator article, either; you must have done something that merits troping as a discrete work.

I agree with the proposed solution: migrate anything that can go to proper articles, such as Fan Fic Recs or the Fanworks index, murder the rest.

edited 16th Nov '16 11:34:09 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

That's what I meant, but I'm terrible at making myself clear.

Full list of non-canon pages (using the wiki title search tool):

• Characters.Albedo Erma Felna EDF Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Avatar The Last Airbender Non Canon
• Awesome.Avatar The Last Airbender Non Canon
• Funny.Avatar The Last Airbender Non Canon
• TearJerker.Avatar The Last Airbender Non Canon
• TearJerker.Axis Powers Hetalia Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Axis Powers Hetalia Non Canon
• Funny.Big Hero 6 Non Canon
• Awesome.Big Hero 6 Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Big Hero 6 Non Canon
• TearJerker.Big Hero 6 Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.Big Hero 6 Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Despicable Me Non Canon
• Funny.Detective Conan Non Canon
• Awesome.Detective Conan Non Canon
• TearJerker.Detective Conan Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Detective Conan Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.Five Nights At Freddys 2 Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.Five Nights At Freddys 3 Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.Five Nights At Freddys 4 Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.Five Nights At Freddys Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.Five Nights At Freddys Sister Location Non Canon
• Sandbox.Forgotten Jedi Star Wars Non Canon Sandbox
• NightmareFuel.Frozen Non Canon
• TearJerker.Frozen Non Canon
• Awesome.Frozen Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Frozen Non Canon
• Funny.Frozen Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Gravity Falls Non Canon
• TearJerker.Gravity Falls Non Canon
• Funny.Gravity Falls Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.Gravity Falls Non Canon
• Awesome.Gravity Falls Non Canon
• Awesome.Harry Potter Non Canon
• TearJerker.Harry Potter Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Harry Potter Non Canon
• Funny.Harry Potter Non Canon
• Heartwarming.How To Train Your Dragon Non Canon
• Funny.How To Train Your Dragon Non Canon
• TearJerker.How To Train Your Dragon Non Canon
• Funny.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• Heartwarming.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• HighOctaneNightmareFuel.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• TheReasonYouSuckSpeech.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• TearJerker.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• Awesome.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• Main.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• AwesomeMusic.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic Non Canon
• Awesome.Naruto Non Canon
• Funny.Naruto Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Naruto Non Canon
• TearJerker.Naruto Non Canon
• TearJerker.Steven Universe Non Canon
• Awesome.Steven Universe Non Canon
• Funny.Steven Universe Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Steven Universe Non Canon
• NightmareFuel.Steven Universe Non Canon
• Awesome.The Book Of Life Non Canon
• TearJerker.The Book Of Life Non Canon
• Heartwarming.The Book Of Life Non Canon
• Funny.The Book Of Life Non Canon
• Characters.The King Of Fighters Non Canon
• TearJerker.The Legend Of Korra Non Canon
• Awesome.The Legend Of Korra Non Canon
• Funny.The Legend Of Korra Non Canon
• Heartwarming.The Legend Of Korra Non Canon
• Funny.Undertale Non Canon
• Awesome.Wreck It Ralph Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Wreck It Ralph Non Canon
• Funny.Wreck It Ralph Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Young Justice Non Canon
• Heartwarming.Zootopia Non Canon

edited 16th Nov '16 1:16:36 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

There's a "The Reason You Suck" Speech page for non-canon MLP:FIM stuff? Christ, I knew that the MLP:FIM side of this wiki was large, but that takes the cake.

Continue the bloodline, Fujimaru!

Should we list the wicks and inbounds for all of those here?

"Come on! Let's get this show on the road."

Topic created. Have at it!

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Closing this, then.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman