Thread current status:
It has been agreed by crowner to merge the Light Novel/ namespace into Literature/.
LightNovel namespace index -- excludes redirects
It has been agreed by crowner that Light Novel examples are to be sorted on trope pages as follows:
- If you're adding an example with LN in mind, place it in Literature.
- If you're adding an example from an Anime/Manga, but unsure if it was present in LN, place it in Anime/Manga.
- If you're adding an example from an Anime/Manga, but know it also happened in the source, place in in Literature.
- If you're adding an example from an Anime/Manga, and sure it did not happen in the source, place it in Anime/Manga even if the work is already listed in Literature.
- If you're moving an example, for example when renaming or handling redirects, and don't know much about other versions, instead just leave it where it was.
- If you know all versions of the work, move examples to the medium they're first featured in.
- Webcomic examples with adaptation go to either Webcomics or Anime/Manga following the above logic.
- Web Serial Novel are still Literature.
- There is to be no dedicated Light Novel folder or subpage on trope pages.
Edge case rulings:
- Due to extreme differences with the original Web Serial Novel, Overlord (2012) will be the hub page for the Overlord Light Novel and its adaptations. Overlord 2010 will cover the WSN.
Original post below.
This has now come up twice in Ask The Tropers in the past year that I know of.
The issue is pretty straightforward: where do we put examples from Light Novels on trope pages?
General options previously proposed:
- Put them in Anime and Manga since they're commonly adapted into them.
- Base things on the original medium, and group them with Literature.
- Take a Third Option and create a Light Novel folder.
Points about this media space that are commonly raised:
- The manga and especially anime adaptations tend to be more available and more familiar to the Western audiences that comprise most tropers.
- The adaptations into manga and anime are usually very faithful Compressed Adaptations, so most trope examples apply to all versions.
ETA: Related issue that came up:
- Should the Light Novel namespace be merged into Literature?
Here's a link to pages that are in the LightNovel/ namespace.
Edited by Tabs on Nov 22nd 2022 at 9:50:41 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sounds fair.
the Retromancer
Should everyone be in agreement, we can reroute this into LightNovel/ namespace talk while the thread is still young.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
(she/her)
I guess we can rename the thread to "The Light Novel namespace and example placement " in that case.
Macron's notes
(It seems we can't go two months without the Japanese media namespace argument coming up again.)
I'm against a namespace move. Maybe it would have made sense back in 2010, but light novels have "risen" to the point where they're culturally distinct from Western literature.
Veteran Editor IV
I'm against a namespace merge mainly out of a personal standard. If there is at least some difference from the larger namespace it could be and there is more than 0.1% pages on the wiki that fall under it (the requirement would be 612, and there are 821 LightNovel/ pages), then I believe it should not be merged.
Edited by Piterpicher on Aug 2nd 2022 at 12:40:37 PM
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
(she/her)
The culturally arguement doesn't work in this case though. Literature/ isn't just for western literature and light novels are just a style of literature in Japan. There is nothing culturally distinct about Literature.Another (Japanese novels that were adapted into anime and manga) and LightNovel.Haruhi Suzumiya beside the two being different forms of literature.
The merge personally makes sense to me and I wish we would have give it more thought back then but if too late or too much then I am not opposed to leaving things the way they are.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 2nd 2022 at 7:33:26 AM
Macron's notes
the Retromancer
I honestly don't see a significant difference (as in any) between western literature and light novels. They are full books with occasional full-page illustrations, which isn't exclusive to Japan. How many pages in the namesepace are now feels irrelevant to me if the reason for putting them there isn't great.
Edited by Amonimus on Aug 2nd 2022 at 1:47:28 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
True, it feels like one of those "someone made it a decade ago and nobody has questioned it until now" situations.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Captain of USS Bajor
That's pretty much my thoughts. The Chronicles of Narnia is a long series of chaptered books with full-page illustrations, and they were written by a guy from England.
And yes, @MacronNotes, I'm cool with renaming and moving the thread.
Edited by StarSword on Aug 2nd 2022 at 8:30:17 AM
the Retromancer
Ironically, I was about to bring Narnia as main example before going more general.
Peeks from Under Rocks
Keep in mind that if we merge the Light Novel namespace into literature, we are defacto making the decision to merge essentially all examples into the Literature/ media folderization, as well.
It's... workable... to have multiple namespaces folderized together. The ongoing troubles with the AnimatedFilm/ media category, though, show that having a namespace that is split across multiple media types leads to practically constant misuse.
(she/her)
It's not de facto. Light Novels with anime and manga adaptations can still be listed on the Anime / manga section. Visual Novels still get listed on the anime / manga folder because they have anime/manga adaptation. When we originally started moving light novels to literature/, we didn't really stress about folder categorization. We kept things like Haruhi Suzumiya in the anime and manga folder. I don't think it's going to cause any confusion. The light novels with adaptations can be listed with their anime/manga adaptations or literature if the example is LN specific and light novels without adaptations can go in literature. It's more or less what we already do.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 2nd 2022 at 11:01:02 AM
Macron's notes
Friends forevermore
If we're going the crowner route, we should tackle the namespace question first, because placing LNs into the Literature/ namespace implies the Literature media category, but not vice versa.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
(she/her)
I already stated that and I think we were discussing the namespace right now.
Macron's notes
Friends forevermore
Potential wording for a namespace crowner: note
"Deprecate the LightNovel/ namespace in favor of Literature/. Any light novel examples currently located under the Anime and Manga media category will be moved to the Literature media category."
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
(she/her)
I was thinking of having a separate crowner for folder catergorization. Having the anime and manga adaptations on Anime & Manga is position people have shared and I don't think dissolving the namespace means that we have to move them all light novels to Literature/ because again Visual Novel/ anime adaptations can still added to anime and manga folders when appropriate.
For example, if an LN example refers to animation or episode numbers, it can stay in the Anime and Manga folder because it's talking about the work's anime adaptation.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 2nd 2022 at 1:40:34 PM
Macron's notes
Friends forevermore
So we're running two crowners regardless? I'm confused now.
I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
(she/her)
It was just a suggestion. I didn't see anyone propose that we put both the namespace and the categorization issue on the same crowner until you did though.
I was saying that it makes more sense to make a crowner for deprecating the Light Novel/ namespace. After the crowner is done, we can move on to another crowner to decide on how to categorize the examples in trope example lists.
Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 2nd 2022 at 1:51:41 PM
Macron's notes
the Retromancer
I prefer to tackle namespace move and example sorting separately, the latter conversation can go into different places depending on how the former ends.
Edited by Amonimus on Aug 3rd 2022 at 11:43:47 AM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Calendar enthusiast
I agree. There should be one crowner to decide on "Deprecate Lightnovel/ in favour of Literature/" and another for "File light novels under Literature rather than Anime and Manga".
Ukrainian Red Cross
At the very least, keep the Light Novels page as a Useful Notes of sorts so people can know what they are and how they slightly differ from western literature in terms of presentation. Getting rid of that page entirely would seem unfair.
(she/her)
I don't think anyone suggested that we should get rid of the page. I am not sure why we would do that (and we didn't do that back then when we tried to move the pages to Literature/).
Are we ready for the crowner now are do we need more discussion.
Macron's notes
the Retromancer
I don't think there's a need to do anything with Light Novels page regardless of both crowners.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
I think we're all set here. Most of us agreed to the crowners by now.
(she/her)
Crowner hooked
Macron's notes
Crown Description:
