'To-do list:
- Examples must showcase a Double Standard in example context, with the protagonist being treated sympathetically for something other characters are called out for by the narrative, so the description needs to be modified accordingly.
- Examples that don't fit the revised definition must be removed. Feel free to keep track of cleaned namespaces with Sandbox.Protagonist Centered Wick Cleaning.
Protagonist-Centered Wick Check's quick results are as follows:
- Intentional non-complaining: 6/50 or 12%
- Unintentional non-complaining: 12/50 or 24%
- Complaining: 9/50 or 18%
- Other Misuse: 3/50, or 6%
- ZCE: 13/50 or 26%
- Unsortable: 6/50, or 12%
While the results are mixed across the board, the biggest non-ZCE folder is the unintentional one, followed closely by the complaining folder. Obviously, this trope is often used to complain about protagonists the troper doesn't like, but that usage wasn't as common as I expected going into it. I did however expect the amount of unintentional examples, and while it's only about 24% of the overall usage, it's still twice as common as the intentional usage.
So, obviously I believe this trope should be moved to YMMV. Like we see in other areas, determining creator intent isn't always easy, and more often than not the audience just needs to assume whether or not these things happened intentionally. Moving it to YMMV removes that ambiguity, making it more about how the protagonist and the morality is actually portrayed (or how people feel it's portrayed) and less about whether or not it's there as an actual trope. This way there'd be no weird confusion as to whether or not the examples "need" to be intentional to count, and it allows for more subjectivity in what does and doesn't qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 14th 2022 at 4:41:06 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I suppose we could include an option to rename the trope to include "Double Standard" in the name in addition to rewriting the definition to refer to protagonists being portrayed as doing nothing wrong when they do the same thing as a secondary character who was portrayed as doing something wrong.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I wouldn't mind that if we could find a good name. I think a retool would work here and give us an actual objective if we make a cleanup thread; similar to the SRO thread but hopefully not as trigger happy. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
the Retromancer
I sometimes misname the trope as Protagonist License (I like to believe some forums use it for things like Omniscient Morality License, Hero Stole My Bike and Kleptomaniac Hero that "the POV does it so it's okay" as a comment on children media, but Google doesn't support me)
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Maybe The Protagonist Is Always Right?
Ehhh, probably not, could get mistaken for when the hero is always proven correct by the story.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 10th 2022 at 4:00:41 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Maybe "Unintentionally Hypocritical" if we make YMMV?
Or is the double standard part essential as the one thing separating it from Unintentionally Unsympathetic? Or is it worth keeping the concepts of unsympathetic/double standard separate here as the only time they don't overlap is PCM that's too minor to be UU (which is likely too minor to count as all non-played with/in-universe PCM examples are written as complaints such it apparently isn't an example if not objectionably bad) or played with/in-universe which is not YMMV)?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 10th 2022 at 7:43:30 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of making Protagonist-Centered Morality YMMV, since the crowner went above 2:1.
Do we need another crowner for the other proposed changes, since the originally proposed change ended up happening?
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 11th 2022 at 7:47:23 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
Let me rundown the thread since this post
. I'm not the best at phrasing.
- Do nothing else and move to a cleanup thread.
- Disambiguate between Designated Hero, Designated Villain, Unintentionally Unsympathetic, Values Dissonance, Informed Wrongness, Author Tract, Unfortunate Implications.
- Yard Fridge Hypocrisy / Unintentional Hypocrisy.
- Limit the use to Intended Audience Reaction / Lampshade Hanging / Invoked Trope.
- Require showcase of Double Standard in example context, protagonist is treated sympathetically for something other characters are called out by the narrative.
- Rename.
Problem, if limited to intentional examples, wouldn't it stop being YMMV again?
Also noting here that while we've talked about it being Double Standard, it's not actually in Double Standard index.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
OK, it's hooked. The option that involves limiting it to played-with examples and the option that requires a Double Standard to be present would involve undoing the move to YMMV.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
How do we know hypocrisy is unintentional if it's not called out on in-universe? Not every creator's gonna spell it out for us audience members.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Same way we can say if Unintentionally Un/Sympathetic applies even in works with moral ambiguity.
- Does it receives what's treaded as due karma over it?
- Is the hypocrisy given narrative weight/emphasis?
That does raise questions I long had about Hypocrite.
- If Moral Myopia is when character is unsympathetic/wrong for such, what is regular Hypocrite supposed to used for instead?
- Does regular Hypocrite have to be intentional as it's not YMMV. And if intentional how's it separate from Moral Myopia?
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of the following:
- Require showcase of Double Standard in example context, protagonist is treated sympathetically for something other characters are called out by the narrative. This would involve removing the trope from YMMV.
- Yard Fridge Hypocrisy / Unintentional Hypocrisy
I'll remove the page from YMMV.Home Page and re-add the in-universe part of the description, and update the discussion page notice.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 14th 2022 at 7:25:58 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
Anything missing in the trope description with that mind, or it can just go to cleanup? Also I think it would be logical to append it to Double Standard page with that clarification.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'm not sure if the description needs to be changed, but cleanup can be done either way. A sandbox may be needed.
Edit: I made Sandbox.Protagonist Centered Wick Cleaning for that purpose.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 14th 2022 at 4:40:38 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
A cleanup thread was mentioned; should we make one of those and close this down? This is a more complicated project than just zapping wicks or changing the trope name, and I think a cleanup thread would allow for more discussion and less of a rush.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
(she/her)
If a clean up thread would be more helpful with the wick cleaning process than the TRS thread, sure we can move to the projects forums. A lot of examples probably need discussion anyways.
Macron's notes
Professor Gigachad
We should also make a sandbox page to store examples that might fit Fridge Hypocricsy if anything like that shows up.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Go ahead.
What do we think? Short term or long term?
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
(she/her)
Since there only 1700 wicks maybe short term but long term will probably get more eyes and this project looks like it'll take a while
Macron's notes
Professor Gigachad
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
(she/her)
Alright, we can redirect cleaning efforts there then. Locking up.
Macron's notes
Crown Description:
Protagonist Centered Morality was made YMMV, but other options were suggested. Should any of the following be done? Some options are mutually exclusive with each other, but not all are. In addition, some options involve undoing the move to YMMV.
"Sympathetic P.O.V. Double Standard" might be better as there are PoV characters (Villain Protagonist, Jerkass, ex.) that are supposed to be in the wrong for such.
Or is PCM just supposed to the double standards as opposed to audiences complaining about such? If so there's so much innate negativity to the concept the only fix I can think of is to limit to intentional/self-aware example (Unintentionally Unsympathetic covers ever unintentional example I can think of, unless PCM is about their rightness as opposed to sympatheticness if so defining the difference might help here).