Needs Help: Protagonist Centered Morality

'To-do list:

• Examples must showcase a Double Standard in example context, with the protagonist being treated sympathetically for something other characters are called out for by the narrative, so the description needs to be modified accordingly.
• Examples that don't fit the revised definition must be removed. Feel free to keep track of cleaned namespaces with Sandbox.Protagonist Centered Wick Cleaning.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 14th 2022 at 4:41:06 AM

I am good with moving this to YMMV.

While I think there's some degree of objectivity, it would require too much Fridge Logic to explain why it would apply, and there's not much can be done to reduce complaining, so to YMMV it goes.

Edited by Amonimus on Jun 5th 2022 at 6:26:39 PM

Definitely YMMV. Maybe a short-term clean-up thread to zap the misuse and complaining for good measure.

I say YMMV.

If we move it to YMMV, will it be redundant with Designated Hero and Unintentionally Unsympathetic?

Reading over the bit of the trope description that is focused on intentionality, I'm wondering if we're missing a slightly broader concept here: A narrative voice that deliberately contradicts with the author's views/point. Something like Deliberately Broken Aesop? Not sure how best to express this off the top of my head.

Move to YMMV at least

Yep seems fine for YMMV.

Might help cut down the issues with Hypocrite being In-Universe for one.

Though on condition we make a cleanup thread to route out any really big misuses.

to YMMV.

Move to YMMV. I think we should index it on YMMV.Home Page instead of Audience Reactions if we do that, since aspects of even the unintentional examples come from within the work, but provoke a value judgement, instead of solely coming from the audience.

to YMMV

I know I will probably be in the minority but I am still unsure if this really belongs in YMMV. You can say that objectively the protagonist is subject to different moral standards even if it wasn't intentional. If moving it to YMMV will fix the issues then I can live with it but I am still unsure.

Like I said in the OP, I really do think moving it to YMMV would benefit us for more reasons than just the unintentionality issue. It'd offer more wiggle room, for one, and allow us to focus on what actually happened and how it makes the protagonist look. I wouldn't call it a trope since it's rarely meant to be there and isn't meant to influence the narrative, which is what tropes do, so paradoxically keeping it in main means we can't be 100% objective since, objectively speaking, the work doesn't portray the protagonist as a hypocrite or with bias — so we can't definitively say it does, at least not on main.

Do we need a crowner, or no?

Moral Myopia covers any intentional (treated as morally wrong) non in-universe (maybe such should be it's own trope "Cosmic Morality Manipulation") use of this.

My one concern is if YMMV how would PCM be separate from Designated Hero and Designated Villain? (As the non-YMMV source of DH and DV the separation made sense.)

If PCM were a super-trope to DH, DV, and others only to be used if nothing else fit, that might work. But can/should the super-trope apply to non-tropes and how do we define the point where DH/DV apply over PCM?

I've always thought Protagonist-Centered Morality is a form of Straw Character — Everyone who agrees with the protagonist is good in author's mind, everyone who disagrees with the protagonist ends up humiliated or killed.

I'd like to change my mind on consideration that it's objective enough, but I don't have a solid solution to complaining.

Edited by Amonimus on Jun 8th 2022 at 9:50:10 PM

I'm also struggling to see how a YMMV version would differ from Designated Hero.

Good point.

My question then is, since this trope is obviously objective, and overlaps with Designated Hero already, is this trope inherently redundant with DH?

The difference is that Protagonist-Centred Morality can refer to a single moment rather than the character as a whole, and its about protagonists which could mean an Anti-Hero or morally ambiguous hero is being subjected to different moral standards from other characters for being the proagonist. Overlap does not mean redundant.

I don't think so, but I can see why people are worried about it. One's for how the hero acts unheroic, and one is about how in-universe morality is determined by proximity to and the hero. Though all the examples on the wick check were things like "hero is an asshole and sees the world in a skewed way", so, yeah...

Even if there is supposed to be a difference between the two, I can see a lot of overlap and probably misuse ensuing if we make it YMMV.

That's misuse as being an asshole means their worldview/morality is supposed to be disagreeable (Jerkass is not YMMV) which is the opposite of PCM. PCM is not their morality but double standards where they're portrayed as rightfully hold others to X moral standard, yet without narrative awareness nor justification give themself/those on their side free pass for the same or worse violations of said standard.

If "all the examples on the wick check" are such misuse, than maybe if it should be YMMV is less the problem we should be discussing.

Realized every moment of PCM is redundant with Unintentionally Unsympathetic (protagonists is supposed be sympathetic for x but audiences disagree for their in acknowledged hypocrisy on the matter). Making PCM YMMV would just eliminate the one thing keeping them separate (being about the double standard in the writing as opposed to how audiences disagree with it).

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 8th 2022 at 1:33:59 AM