On creating a timeline for TRS changes and the like

Moving the discussion here per this comment.

On the discussions about moderation page, I came up with an idea that I think might be very useful.

A TV Tropes Timeline, or Changelog. Not like the current timeline, it would basically a bigger version of the Changelog from Trope Report. It would be a big timeline of trope changes, redefinitions, renames, cuts, disambiguations, merges, and so on. The timeline would go back and chronicle changes from this year, 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, and so on, serving as a guide for major trope changes.

I think it would be helpful to have for multiple reasons. First off, not all tropers pay attention to TRS. I sometimes see comments from tropers asking why names were changed, examples were purged, etc. from tropes. The Timeline could be cited to help explain these changes for the uninitiated. Second, it could help us keep track of major changes in TRS outside of discussion pages, giving them a centralized place to be recorded.

I know we have the Trope Epitaph, but I think this proposed page (with included links and a more formal tone) would be a little less jokey and more explanatory page than that. Plus Renamed Tropes doesn't cover things like redefinitions and so on, which this page would cover.

What does everyone else think?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 25th 2022 at 3:30:03 PM

I think it could be useful. Administrivia.Renamed Tropes doesn’t cover cuts, disambigs, splits, merges, and redefinitions and it would nice to have something that’s more formal than the Trope Epitaph.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jan 25th 2022 at 3:45:02 PM

There's this draft as well... As such, I kinda feel like two major TRS functions are covered, potentially more.

I'm open to having such a page. The changelog section in Trope Report is a good start, but that only goes back a year and usually just has what changed and the results of said change without the why.

I'd be cool with a page like that.

Yea, this sounds like a neat idea.

This is a great idea. It'll also help further down the line if a problematic trope continues being a problem. Like the Acceptable Targets, Artistic License, or Anvilicious-related tropes, all of which have had a long history of TRS and clean-up efforts. Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped went from Sugar Wiki to the wiki proper (as YMMV) and one of the more recent TRS efforts almost put it back on Sugar Wiki without addressing the fact that it started there to begin with. (For those curious, it ultimately was merged with Anvilicious.)

Edited by WaterBlap on Jan 26th 2022 at 1:10:32 PM

While I do see the point, I do feel such a list may be too broad in terms of scope (partly due to the thousands of threads, even if many didn't take off) and some of these things may be covered by existent pages like Renamed Tropes, Locked Pages, Permanent Red Link Club (not always for these two, but sometimes), and the draft for tropes made due to TRS I mentioned earlier. Feel free to make lists like Namespace Moves In The Trope Repair Shop, though.

Edited by Piterpicher on Jan 26th 2022 at 8:19:50 PM

Honestly I thought this was specifically for coordinating what pages ought to be made. I don't think everything has to be lumped into one Grand Unified Timeline, though some tropes go through the gamut and could possibly be placed on a generalized page.

So something like this in terms of structure:

• Trope Timeline (covering those tropes where there are several different things happening to them)
  • Renamed Tropes
  • Locked Pages
  • Permanent Red Link Club
  • Created In Trope Repair Shop (Or whatever name is agreed upon; seems to focus mostly on trope splits)
  • Migrated Tropes (namespace moves)
  • Merged Tropes (trope lumpings)

Noting that as far as archives for each trope are concerned, it is a policy to post about TRS decisions in the discussion page. I know Septimus recently went through the morgue and catalogued every old thread in the discussions to a point, even those that went nowhere, to catch that effort up. (eg. here's the page for the aforementioned Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped, which has indeed gone through a TRS rollercoaster... actually, that should probably be moved in a bit, so for another example, here is the discussion page for It Was His Sled).

Yeah, that sounds like a decent plan.

I was talking specifically about any thread that resulted in a change, although it might be worth expanding to threads that, while they didn’t lead to a change, are worth noting for whatever reason (such as if the trope has been through TRS before, or if the thread is otherwise worth noting).

Of course threads that were insta-locked wouldn’t count. I was talking about threads that led to a change.

to Blap’s plan, with a page that chronicles changes that don’t fall under other pages.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 26th 2022 at 3:56:10 PM

I love this idea.

Blap's outline.

It's been a while. Is a crowner possible?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 3rd 2022 at 6:36:47 AM

Bumping because I never git a response on

Yes, a crowner would be possible.

Bumping this. I'm wondering if my idea would work as a giant index called Tropes That Have Had TRS Action or something less clunky (Tropes Changed By TRS?). This (giant perpetual work in progress) would index all tropes that TRS has changed in some way, be it cuts, renames, splits, disambiguations, redefinitions, and so on. They would require either a successful crowner or a mod declaration. Basically my old idea as a formal index.

Admittedly I am not confident in my idea (and I don't expect it to go over well) but I just want to pitch it here before I potentially make (what would be my first) TLP of it. Any other thoughts? Are there ways of salvaging this concept if it isn't good?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 19th 2022 at 12:10:42 PM

I am wary of adding yet another internal-use-only index. Most readers aren't interested in whether a trope was changed in TRS. A list page may work but you have your work cut out when filling the index.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'll stick with the list idea then. Don't worry about me having my work cut out—I (and other possible volunteers) can handle it.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Feb 20th 2022 at 7:59:57 AM

Maybe we could put these in Administrivia/ rather than Main/ since they're all meta anyways. We could put PRLC and other internal-reference-only pages in there too.

Edit: I actually forgot that the other three pages are already on the Administrivia namespace.

Edited by WaterBlap on Feb 20th 2022 at 5:37:38 AM

Big bump after a few months. Does anyone still think this idea has merit?

I like the idea. Worth noting is that when a TRS/project thread stalled and get locked without going anywhere, it might be good to have the summary of the discussion archived somewhere, so that when the issue is brought up again in the future, we don't need to re-tread old grounds.

I like it conceptually, but if this thread logged cut/disambigs/merges as well that would be enough for me. People can follow it to read about recent changes.

One of my problems with that is that the thread currently doesn't cover that. Even if it did, there's still a backlog of old trope changes that wouldn't be listed because they are old enough that it wouldn't matter.

Unless the rules were changed to allow that as well. Maybe I'd be on board with that then.

Although there's still the question of the failed threads that Adept brought up—I agree that having links to those is useful for the reasons they mentioned.

Also not all tropers use the forums. A dedicated page might work better for non-forum using tropers.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 8th 2022 at 5:29:13 AM