Not Tropeworthy: Overarching Villain

To-do list:

• Move wicks to the tropes on the Overarching Villain disambiguation page if they fit, and remove them if they don't. For reference purposes, here's the list of tropes on the disambiguation page:
  • Antagonist Title: A villain important to the work such it's after them.
  • Arc Villain: Standalone villain of a single story arc in a much longer story.
  • Big Bad: The cause of all the story's bad events which the hero(es) must resolve.
  • Breakout Villain: A villain becomes a series mainstay in response to their fan popularity.
  • Demoted to Dragon: When a past Big Bad returns as The Dragon to a new Big Bad.
  • Ex-Big Bad: A former Big Bad returns but is no longer the main threat, being overshadowed by a new Big Bad.
  • Greater-Scope Villain: A threat/villainous presence that's more dangerous, affects more people, or is more significant than the story's current Big Bad in the setting as a whole, but isn't causing the conflict of the immediate story.
  • The Heavy: The villain that moves the plot forward and gets the most focus among the antagonists, even if they are not the Big Bad.
  • Hijacked by Ganon: An old villain turns out to be behind a new threat.
  • Joker Immunity: Villains who are too good or too popular to be Killed Off for Real.
  • The Man Behind the Man: A bigger villain is revealed to be behind the actions of the original villain.
  • The Man Behind the Monsters: A human (or something resembling a human) leads an army of monsters.
  • Mascot Villain: A villain who serves as a Series Mascot.
  • Returning Big Bad: A previous Big Bad returns to be the main threat later on in the story.
  • Villain on Leave: When a Big Bad is absent for the second installment, but is present in the first and third.
  • Villainous Legacy: The villain is no longer around, but the plot continues to be driven by things they did while alive.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 16th 2022 at 5:45:34 AM

Opening. I could get behind disambiguating Overarching Villain and clarifying Big Bad's description.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 22nd 2022 at 3:44:23 AM

"a villain of the Myth Arc" is still an Arc Villain.

Disambiguate Overarching Villain between maybe Arc Villain, Big Bad, Greater-Scope Villain, Man Behind the Man, The Man Behind the Monsters, Joker Immunity, Hijacked by Ganon and move the examples accordingly.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 22nd 2022 at 3:02:49 PM

Still, that’s not what people think of when they hear Arc Villain- they think of a momentary villain of a single arc.

Yeah, disambiguate Overarching Villain and clarify Big Bad's description.

I believe the Overarching Villain trope should remain. Although an Overarching Villain can be the Big Bad, or some combination of Big Bad and Greater-Scope Villain (depending of the OV's immediate presence) for the majority/entirety of the series, this is not always the case. Sometimes, an Overarching Villain can be overshadowed by another Big Bad (An OV can be forced into a Big Bad Duumvirate and/or Big Bad Ensemble, be reduced to a Big Bad Wannabe, get Demoted to Dragon (or start out as The Dragon), and/or forced into an Enemy Mine with the heroes by an Arc Villain or Villain of the Week) for part of the story, but still be more important to the overall story. Some franchises/series have both an Overarching Big Bad and an Overarching Heavy. For Example:

• Slade is the OV of the 2003 Teen Titans series, but he is only the Big Bad of the first two seasons before being killed by Terra. However, he haunted Robin as a hallucination in Season 3, came Back from the Dead in Season 4 as The Dragon for Trigon, and in Season 5 he came Back for the Finale giving some bittersweet closure to Beast Boy in regard to Terra. This guy is the one villain who never truly goes away.
• Colonel Olrik is the OV of the Blake and Mortimer series, but he is usually The Dragon to the Villain of the Week.
• Axel Gear in Rocket Knight Adventures is never the Big Bad himself, but he is Sparkster's Arch-Enemy and serves as The Dragon to whoever the current Big Bad is.
• RWBY has Cinder Fall as the Overarching Heavy, and Salem as the Overarching Big Bad.
• Revolver Ocelot from the Metal Gear Solid games is a Dragon with an Agenda to multiple Big Bads before becoming the Big Bad himself in Metal Gear Solid 4.

Edited by dgenega5764 on Jan 22nd 2022 at 1:28:50 AM

correction: I meant to type that RWBY has Cinder Fall is the Overarching Heavy, and Salem as the Overarching Big Bad

You can edit posts, you know

That was part of my logic when I created this trope: some of these villains are not the Big Bad.

When I created this trope years ago, I had a very specific purpose in mind: people kept on acting like Arc Villain and Big Bad were mutually exclusive, when in some cases they weren't. I tried to bring attention to this. I wanted to see if the creation of this trope would properly disambiguate the concepts of "recurring villain" and "actual cause of problems" villain. The idea was that the Overarching Villain would recur in multiple arcs in a fashion that they couldn't be called an Arc Villain, but they weren't necessarily a Big Bad either because they could be working for one.

Unfortunately, I doubt most of you will understand my reasoning, since I explained it before in a different thread to another troper's confusion. Sadly, the explanation that I gave made perfect sense to me, and I genuinely do not know how to be clearer, because it looks so clear to me, but evidently it makes no sense to anyone else. I won't argue against this trope being taken down, but I just want someone to understand my reasoning for the trope's creation.

(Of course, me still being a child when I created this trope may also factor heavily into that.)

I'm in favor of keeping this trope, but I feel it needs to go under severe reevaluation.

Edited by TiMBer1566 on Jan 22nd 2022 at 1:24:15 PM

I mean for example The Wolf in me has a character named Livia who is the Big Bad of the first story and dies. However, every sequel references her, almost every villain is connected to her, or is greatly impacted by her in some way. Or something like Legacies has Malivore with every villain and major plot point coming back to him even if he is only really the Big Bad in one season. If we keep this trope this is the type of villains, we should list in my opinion.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 22nd 2022 at 5:05:25 AM

Isn't that stuff covered by Villainous Legacy?

I mean only really Livia fits that. Because Malivore was alive for most of its show. I meant a villain who has the greatest impacted on the whole series/myth arc. Rather than just the most recurring like most of the entries seem to be about.

Or to be more clear something like Lucifer from Supernatural or Voldemort from Harry Potter. Who while not always the main villain has a large impact on the work/myth arc as a whole that.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 22nd 2022 at 5:23:05 AM

Okay, but why does any of this justify a brand new trope rather than using an existing one? If the villain is Greater-Scope Villain, Overarching Villain won't apply anyway. Big Bad does not require a character to be around for the majority/entirety of the series, or to be the Big Bad for the majority/entirety of the series. In the trope talk thread, we were told that the reason Overarching Villain was created was to deal with people misusing Big Bad as "villain has to be in the entire story", thereby excluding Big Bads who are only part of the work, or who are only the Big Bad for part of the work.

So, a Big Bad who isn't around for the majority/entirety of the series is still a Big Bad. A Big Bad who is around for the majority/entirety of the series is also still a Big Bad.

Looking at your scenarios, you're talking about some potentially very different plotlines for a villain, but at no point are you actually explaining what you think Overarching Villain is in the first place for all these different scenarios to justify OV being the trope to use rather than any of the other villain tropes. You're saying what the tropable pattern is to all these scenarios.

At the moment, Overarching Villain is claiming it's just Arc Villain for the whole work rather than just a single story arc. The scenarios you mention would be at home in the Arc Villain trope description, but when you assign OV to the Myth Arc, how is it different to The Heavy, which is the antagonist that provides the most conflict, is the most visible, and has the most appearances? Especially once you get into some of the scenarios you're citing, where the OV might be overshadowed by another, or be working for another.

In short, what is OV bringing to the table that other existing villain tropes aren't? What niche is missing that none of the other tropes are capturing?

I only know one of the works in your list, which is RWBY. So, what I can say is this: based on the intention of the trope that was established in the trope talk (which is what I based the wick check on), Salem is correct use, but Cinder is just "most recurring villain".

The catch here is that the intention for the trope and the current trope description don't match. Going by the trope description, it's claiming that it's "the villain that's been in the story the longest". However, the third paragraph introduces the idea of the "most frequent" villain. While those two things can be the same, they don't have to be. You could end up with a "most recurring villain" who has not been in most of the story.

You might be capturing "recurring villain" with the trope description, but what makes "recurring villain" tropable that doesn't fit into existing tropes?

Also, the trope description mostly focusses on the villain that's been in the work the longest before eventually suggesting that this is the most frequent villain. But neither concept actually addresses the issues you had with the use of Arc Villain and Big Bad. If there's misuse of those two tropes in this manner, the trope descriptions should be cleaned up to stop the misuse of those tropes.

Overarching Villain doesn't do the intended job of stopping such misuse of the other tropes, what you instead find are examples troped under both for the same reason, which the raises the question of duplication.

Since it was already mentioned as an example, and it's the only work in the listed examples I'm familiar with, let me try and clarify using the RWBY entries from the Over Arching Villain trope page.

Cinder is listed because she appears in every single volume; although subservient to Salem, she confronts the heroes the most, and is therefore the one who is personally responsible for most of their troubles. This is basically an entry for The Heavy. It's basically telling us "Cinder is Overarching Villain because she's The Heavy". So, basically the frequency and longevity of her presence in the show is because she's The Heavy, but we're sticking it under a second trope, too.

Salem is the plot driver, who works from the shadows for most of the story, acting through people like Cinder. Without her, there would be no Myth Arc. Based on both your intention, and the trope description, Salem is a legitimate entry — she's been around for a long time because of her connection to the Myth Arc. But her connection to the Myth Arc is because she's the Big Bad, so her Big Bad entry effectively covers this longevity angle (because the Big Bad trope can cover both Myth Arc and Story Arc villains).

Anyway, I guess these are my questions: Why do we need a separate trope just to record the length of time a villain's been in the story, or the frequency with which a character has appeared in the story? Why is it tropeworthy in its own right? What stops it devolving into an exercise in counting pages or episodes or seasons? How does this correct the original misuse in Big Bad and Arc Villain?

If those questions can be answered, there may well be something tropable we can grasp. At the moment, however, I don't see Overarching Villain as doing anything different to existing tropes that is tropeworthy — not based on its current state, anyway.

Okay, I didn't see these last few posts until now, so I'm tacking them onto the end.

This sounds potentially interesting. If I'm understanding you correctly, this would be like Yhwach in Bleach. He only appears in the final arc of the work. Meanwhile Aizen is the Big Bad for two thirds of the story (and an Enemy Mine for the remainder). However, the reason Aizen is the Big Bad is because of Yhwach's existence and what he represents. The reason the The Hero and The Lancer are the people they are is because of the Yhwach (although they themselves don't know it for a long time). The reason Soul Society and Hueco Mundo are as they are is because of Yhwach.

So, while he's currently the Greater-Scope Villain for the first part of the story and the Big Bad for the final part, the fact that his existence, the build-up to his appearance, the fact that main characters are the people they are, all being connected to him either directly or indirectly means he'd be an Overarching Villain? However, because he only appears in the final arc and therefore isn't the most frequently appearing villain, he would not be an Overarching Villain under the current trope, and that therefore is the difference that you're suggesting? Or are you suggesting that both need to be in play (in which case, Aizen would be the example because he's the villain with the most impact while also having the most appearances).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 22nd 2022 at 4:08:58 AM

Yes that is pretty much exactly what I am suggesting. I feel like it would be more tropeworthy and allow for a bit more uniqueness while getting rid of a lot of the misuse.

So essentially were torn between defining this trope as "villain that has the most impact of the story's Myth Arc" vs "villain that has the most runtime". Since the trope's creator, Satoshi, stated they created the trope to fit the latter definition, shouldn't we define it as that?

I mean isn't the point of a thread like this to fix and discusse how to stop misuse. I feel like my suggestion can include the OG's vision. Like while Lucifer eats up a lot of screen time he also fits a lot with villain who has the most impact. It also helps get rid of misusees like this one currently up.

• iCarly has Nevel Amadeus Papperman, who is the closest thing the show has to a primary antagonist and almost every episode he appears in has him stirring up a conflict, usually for no other reason than fun or to make Carly miserable.

Who in mind doesn't even fit the Big Bad who doesn't even fit the current of villain who gets the most screen time but is just a recurring villain on a sitcom without a real arc or plotline to take up a lot screen time of.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 22nd 2022 at 6:45:56 AM

According to the page description for Overarching Villain, "While the Overarching Villain is often the Big Bad of an entire Myth Arc, they could simply be a frequently recurring villain." Which could mean that "villain that has the most impact of the story's Myth Arc" and "villain that has the most runtime" both seem like valid descriptions for Overarching Villain.

The Laconic example states, "A baddie that's around for a major portion, if not all, of the series." I feel like this could apply to both villains who frequently appear across the series and villains whose actions are felt across the majority of the plot. Even if they aren't onscreen very often, that doesn't mean they aren't around affecting the plot.

The problem comes back to then what makes this trope unique enough from say Big Bad, The Heavy, or Greater-Scope Villain? Because a lot entries such as the one I brought above could just be those tropes. So ergo why I suggest it should be biggest impact and/or maybe most recurring in an actual Myth Arc. So you don't just get ones like from iCarly which just trying to say this guy appears a bunch and happens to be a bad guy. Which doesn't really fit either definition in my opinion.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 22nd 2022 at 7:46:59 AM

Nevel fits Arch-Enemy. As does Ridley and a whole bunch of other characters called this.

If a character is a Big Bad, The Heavy, and/or Greater-Scope Villain for the franchise as a whole (and a character can transition between the three at different points in time), than they are an Overarching Villain. If a character is only a Big Bad, The Heavy, and/or Greater-Scope Villain for a single installment or Story Arc within the franchise, or of a standalone story (such as a movie that doesn't have any sequels, prequels, or spinoffs) that isn't part of a larger franchise, than they are not an OV.

Edited by dgenega5764 on Jan 22nd 2022 at 6:07:14 AM

I mean like I said I am fine with it staying but we need a more concrete definition as characters like Nevel don't really fit either definition neither do a lot of entries.

I do think you are right that it should be a franchise or Myth arc. Like say Thanos from the MCU, Lucifer from Supernatural, or Voldermort from Harry Potter.

Edited by Bullman on Jan 22nd 2022 at 8:12:44 AM