To-do list:
- Move wicks to a trope listed on the Moral Dissonance disambiguation page if they fit, and remove them if they don't. For reference purposes, here's the list of tropes on the disambiguation page:
- Batman Grabs a Gun: A good guy makes an exception to their moral code treated as O.O.C. Is Serious Business.
- Became Their Own Antithesis: A character embodies the very thing that their previous moral code stood against.
- Broken Aesop: The work breaks their own moral message by having its narrative conflict resolved by the very thing it preaches against.
- Designated Hero: The work portrays the character as a paragon of virtue when their actions are anything but heroic.
- Designated Villain: The work portrays the character as reprehensible, even though they don't do anything that warrants that label.
- Hypocrite: The character preaches one thing and acts in a way that contradicts it.
- Jerkass Ball: Someone acts uncharacteristically cruel or selfish for the sake of enabling Conflict.
- Out-of-Character Moment: A moment when character acts in a way contradictory to their usual morality.
- Karma Houdini: When a character don't get punished for their reprehensible actions.
- Moral Myopia: A character is portrayed as unsympathetic/morally wrong for not holding themselves to their own stated morality.
- Protagonist-Centered Morality: The protagonist is subject to different moral standards than other characters.
- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: When a character is intended to be seen as sympathetic but the audience doesn't think they are.
- Values Dissonance: What is totally acceptable or even applauded for in a particular culture might be seen as reprehensible by other cultural standards.
- What the Hell, Hero?: A good guy is called out by in-work characters for failing to live up to their moral code.
Upon looking at the page, I noticed a lot of complaining, and started a wick check (which was later completed by a few other tropers while I was on a brief hiatus from the site) to see if the wicks had similar problems.
What the wick check found instead was a serious misuse problem. The quick results are as follows:
- There were 12/50 correct examples with not much complaining, or 24%
- There were 4/50 complaining examples, or 8%
- There were 25/50 misused examples, or 50%
- There were 8/50 ZCEs, or 16%, and
- There were 1/50 other examples, or 2%
After returning from my hiatus, I was surprised at the misuse count. Looking through the misused wicks, a common form of misuse seems to be examples where no hypocrisy occurred, and the offending examples simply complaining about the alleged immorality of the actions of the characters. Some wicks also had overlap with Values Dissonance.
My first proposed solution for this trope would be to move this trope to YMMV. I was surprised it wasn’t already when I saw it. My second proposed solution would be to possibly rename the trope to a more indicative name, since “Moral Dissonance” could be interpreted to mean that a character is inherently immoral. An alternative name (which I haven’t been able to think of any) could help with the misuse. Finally, the trope could be expanded, though I strongly oppose this decision as I fear it would lead to more complaining entries.
What does everyone else think should be done here?
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 16th 2022 at 5:55:49 AM
Oh wow, I just stumbled on this trope for the first time a few days ago and found the section on Merlin (2008) to be a really good breakdown, I didn't realize it was being voted away over on the TRS until right now.
I'm not sure where something like the Merlin example should be moved.
I thought Moral Dissonance sounded like a good name for the situation, because it's sort of grander than Designated Hero or Designated Villain by sort of encompassing all characters, but not strictly being a Protagonist-Centered Morality because it knows it's hypocritical to a point.
Basically the characters are intended to be making morally questionable compromises in the short term because of how those actions are supposed to secure a prophesied better future in the long term.
The problem is after the show comes to a close with the prophecy no longer able to actually come true without the story actually acknowledging such. It retroactively turns the story into a sort of Shoot the Shaggy Dog, but it leaves this as very blatant Fridge Horror because it doesn't admit to it.
Edited by Jokubas on Jan 15th 2022 at 6:32:54 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The problem is that "characters doing morally questionable things to achieve a greater purpose", or "being forced to choose a lesser evil to prevent a greater one", so to speak was not how Moral Dissonance is originally defined, so even if this trope wasn't cut, that example would still have to be removed for being a misuse.
Not familiar with the work you mention, but it sounds like it's covered by Not Quite the Right Thing, where someone performs an action (that may be morally questionable) to do the "right thing" only for something to render it all moot.
Hypocrite, to my knowledge, currently does not require it be intentional. If it should (I'd say yes as being intentional or unintentional seems bad form for non-YMMV) is another debate. I brought it up awhile back but it stalled, might be a good time to start again.
Until then Hypocrite should be added to the disambiguation.
Karma Houdini should be removed from the disambiguation as every time I brought examples to cleanup they said it has to be intentional whileMD by definition is unintentional.
Do we want to add a list of tropes it's to be contrasted with/not to be confused with (like Batman Grabs a Gun, Moral Myopia, What the Hell, Hero?) to the Disambiguation? (No other Disambiguation pages do that.)
Just realized Became Their Own Antithesis is also intentional, so should that be removed too?
Although keep in mind that this is a disambiguation and not a supertrope/index, so I don't think we need a "not to be confused with" disclaimer.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Is MD unintentional by definition? We ruled against making it YMMV, and it's entirely possible to do this trope and have it be intentional, you just need to present it in an obvious way. The issue is that most of the uses aren't intentional, but that the trope can still be used intentionally.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 16th 2022 at 2:30:02 PM
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Goku Black
I downvoted making it ymmv as I know it would be used for complaining so figured disambig would be better.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I have no idea why the discussion about whether or not this trope needs to be intentional or not is even happening—the trope no longer exists.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Because Ferot is disagreeing with certain tropes being on the disambig on the basis that they're intentional.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
And I think that entire premise is silly, to be honest.
/shrug
@Adept: Yes Became Their Own Antithesis should be cut as it's also intentional.
MD being unintentional remains relevant because it determines what would work as replacements.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jan 16th 2022 at 4:18:27 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I think it's more about usage though, not about what the trope's definition was. Because they're to help people find better tropes to use for their examples, so how people actually use it is more relevant.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Seconding what War Jay is saying here. It's mostly about mentioning how it's used. This isn't trying to determine a subtrope/supertrope situation, because the trope no longer exists. We're just hoping to direct people to where they actually want to be.
Here's the wick check for how it was used.
It was definitely only supposed to apply to heroes or good guys failing to live up to their moral code. If it was for intentional examples it's Hypocrite or What the Hell, Hero?. If complaining about it it's Designated Hero. How it was used was too similar to existing tropes (which we are listing under the Disambiguation) to justify MD being it's own thing given it attracted ambiguity/inconsistent usage.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
...We know. That's why we're disambiging it. What's your argument exactly?
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Whatever this trope was supposed to mean is no longer relevant now that the trope doesn't exist. It was disambiguated to keep inbounds, and I think it should list the tropes that MD is misused as so that people will know what to replace the wicks with while cleaning.
Ok then.
If Became Their Own Antithesis is allowed as a redirect, any objections to acknowledgments of moral inconsistency (Batman Grabs a Gun, Moral Myopia, What the Hell, Hero?) being added?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jan 16th 2022 at 10:34:05 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
If people use it for those tropes, sure.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Added.
I'll add this to Administrivia.TRS Wick Cleaning unless I hear any objections. (Are we not at that point in cleanup yet?)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Not everything gets added there. I don't know how we decide what does or doesn't, though I don't usually see things added if they have open threads.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Adding things there is voluntary, and I think it's safe to say that it isn't mandatory considering adding ongoing projects there wasn't that common until relatively recently (when I first found the page, only older projects were listed).
I just add things there because I don't see any harm in it, but at least one of the other mods has mentioned (in the mod chat) not sharing my habit of adding things to it.
Edit: But a link to this thread and a note about what was changed should have been added to the discussion page. I took care of that for now. (Another thing that has to be done is recording renames in the Renamed Tropes thread on the Frequently Asked Questions board and the Renamed Tropes Administrivia pages, but since there was no rename done here, that's not necessary in this case.)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 2nd 2022 at 3:08:22 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Professor Gigachad
I was wondering. Why isn't Unintentionally Unsympathetic on the disambig? It seems to me like a good choice for it and is a trope that people often confused this one for.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
You can add it if you want to. It's not there because nobody else thought about it yet.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Adding UU to it.
As it seems we’re unsure if to add MD to TRS Wick Cleaning, I'll ask TRS about it. Thoughts about adding MD to Trope Epitaph? (I will unless I hear anything.)
Also I was under the impression Moral Myopia only applied when they were treated as wrong for it, but reading over it description it doesn't make that clear. Will ask how MM is supposed to be distinct from Hypocrite and adjust it's entry in the disambiguation. Also seen enough issues with MM (unintentional, redundant with Hypocrite) that it might be worth taking to TRS next.
Update: per ATT added MD to TRS Wick Cleaning and Trope Epitaph. Also asked Duplicate trope cleanup about Moral Myopia.
Also, bottom post.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Feb 8th 2022 at 3:07:39 AM
Crown Description:
What should be done with Moral Dissonance?
I disambiguated the page for now. I also added Karma Houdini and Protagonist-Centered Morality, because while dewicking the page from its indexes, that's how some of them defines Moral Dissonance.
Edited by Adept on Jan 15th 2022 at 4:23:27 PM