Needs Help: MST 3 K Mantra

The Mantra is a YMMV trope appearing on many work pages and non-YMMV subpages. By itself, I'd just have a short-term project open and scrub the misused potholes as per standing procedures for YMMV wicks.

But we have an additional complication here; there are no examples on the trope page, and haven't really had any for a decade. Quite possibly predating when we began collecting examples on trope articles. It never got added to Example Sectionectomy, so is this by mistake or intent? A previous thread established that it's basically the same as the Bellisario's Maxim, which is also a YMMV page with wicks on work pages. The thread did not establish a consensus on lack of examples.

There are currently 1751 wicks to the page, but only 219 of them are in the YMMV/ namespace. On the other hand, there are 371 wicks in medium namespaces, not counting Characters/ and Recap/ subpages. That's a 13% ratio, contrasted to a 21% ratio, making it a significant Pothole-magnet or worse; misplaced examples.

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To summarize, MST3K Mantra is a YMMV-trope getting misused on work pages, at best by attracting Sinkholes. The page itself has no examples, and should be solved by declaring it Definition Only, No On-Page Examples, or Crosswicking YMMV examples back to this page.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Opening.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I'd vote for declaring it Definition Only Fan Speak. Allow us to wick it, but not for us to have actual examples.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Do we know how it's used off-page?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on May 10th 2021 at 1:12:40 PM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

I've only ever really seen it wicked, personally, but then again I'm not sure how a "proper example" of this would even look.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I didn't do a formal wick check; the fact that it was used so often on main work pages was a problem in itself as a YMMV page.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

It is not a trope.

"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”

Even if we don't have a proper wick check, the fact that so few wicks are on YMMV subpages despite this being YMMV is a problem on its own.

That said, I don't see that as a reason to not have a wick check for this.

Edit: I guess I typed more slowly than usual if I got ninja'd that many times. Septimus's previous post was the most recent when when I hit the "add post" button.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 10th 2021 at 12:16:06 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

I think this has a more recognisable trope namer than Bellisario's Maxim, but that second one may ultimately be clearer/allow for wider usage. I think this can be made into a def-only page.

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Merge with Bellisario's Maxim as the term existed before MST3K premiered.

Edited by Nen_desharu on May 10th 2021 at 11:59:31 AM

Kirby is awesome.

Based on the previous thread it seems like these two pages are essentially Fan Speak definition pages. I am undecided on a merge - I am not convinced that it's necessary to merge two different Fan Speak terms even if they have overlapping meanings - but I worry a bit that pages like these are often linked from within a Justifying Edit/Conversation in the Main Page.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

So I wrote the first two paragraphs below while waiting for the thread to be unlocked but missed when it actually was, so some of it may be rehashing points this discussion has moved past and may not even do it all that well, bringing old and discredited values into things. ^note Feature request that's probably too complex to implement anytime soon and might not even be desirable: the ability to queue up responses to threads that haven't been opened yet, invisible until they are, as long as they're actually adding context and insight to the discussion, not votes or other things that might be affected by such context or insight.

MST3K Mantra has definitely not been exampleless for longer than we've been collecting trope examples, which was already a thing when I encountered the wiki, which I think was before that page existed. I was surprised to find the Internet Archive had versions of that page going back as far as they do, or that a version of Gilligan Cut from not that much earlier doesn't use bullet points to separate examples.

Both MST3K Mantra and Bellisario's Maxim are essentially Fan Speak, and the degree to which each are strictly "on-mission" is pretty small, but they're still useful to have, perhaps especially as pothole magnets or "wiki stock phrases", particularly in Headscratchers or WMG. I doubt most of the invocations of either are "examples" because even by YMMV standards it's hard to cite specific work or fanbase "examples" of either. I'm tempted to declare them Just for Fun but I'm not sure to what degree that fits them either.

I do think a proper check, with an emphasis on work and example pages, is warranted. Some links on work pages may be editorializing about aspects of a work or punctuating the use of Artistic License tropes, some may be referencing what Word of God had to say about it, some may be something else entirely, but I doubt there are many cases of it springing out of natter or Justifying Edits. It seems like it's at least as likely to be added by the same person adding an example, or at least to read like it was.

Edited by MorganWick on May 12th 2021 at 3:03:15 AM

Fan speak, merge. It's an important part of wik culture and a good philosophy to keep in mind (it's in my signature for a reason).

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

A cursory check of MST3K Mantra on three work pages showed that it's used to pothole unlikely developments that viewers should better not analyze. Is there anything we can do about it?

Edited by eroock on May 12th 2021 at 12:52:21 PM

They can be removed like any other Sinkhole.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Like I said, at best, it's a sinkhole magnet. Natter and Justifying edits are additional problems that will essentially go away after an intense cleanup. How would categorizing the types of misuse change what you think should be done to the page?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

TropeDistinctions.A To C

Bellisario's Maxim vs. MST3K Mantra

• Both are about a certain level of forgiveness from the fans when watching a compelling story.
  • The MST3K Mantra is a caution against turning something into Serious Business. It is about the simple enjoyment of any work of fiction.
  • Bellisario's Maxim is from a more technical standpoint, it is assuming that a group of 10 writers can't squeeze in enough research to placate the millions of critical viewers. Also, they can't be expected to exorcise every single Plot Hole from a story (especially on a weekly basis).

This might help in deciding what to do with MST3K Mantra. I'm also wondering if Bellisario's Maxim has the same issue of not being a useful analysis of audience reaction to the work.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 16th 2021 at 4:08:15 AM

I honestly don't see any meaningful distinction between MST3K Mantra and Bellisario's Maxim; at worst, it's a Distinction Without a Difference.

Edit: That said, if they both end up as Fan Speak Definition-Only Pages, the lack of differences probably wouldn't be a problem, since the we'd just be defining the terms instead of allowing full-fledged examples. Either way, both have the problem of being YMMV while having most of their wicks on non-YMMV pages (only 59 of Bellisario's Maxim's 446 wicks are on YMMV pages).

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 16th 2021 at 6:29:11 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Essentially, the main difference is Technician vs. Performer with Bellisario's Maxim being from a technician's viewpoint and MST3K Mantra being from a performer's viewpoint.

Is that correct?

Edited by Nen_desharu on May 16th 2021 at 11:09:30 AM

Kirby is awesome.

MST3K aired two years before Bellisario's Maxim was a thing. The former started in 1988 while the latter was spoken in 1990.

I'm not seeing much of a difference between the two. I think they should be merged and turned into a Fan Speak page. MST3K Mantra should probably be the final page name since it's got significantly more wicks and inbounds (1751 wicks and 37,601 inbounds compared to BM's 446/17,887).

Edited by Karxrida on May 16th 2021 at 9:11:13 AM

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Makes sense

Kirby is awesome.

Merging them and making fan-speak.