Asshole Victim Cleanup

This might have existed before but it's been long buried. Before anyone asks, this is NOT a bureaucratic cleanup. Nor is this meant to be a cleanup for the sake of cleanup. This is a legit cleanup that's meant to question certain examples of the Asshole Victim trope. Like I said, this is not imposing restrictions, rather, removing bad examples.

As we cleanup this question should be asked most importantly...

Does the Asshole deserve their punishment? For example, if a character is a serial killer, do they deserve the death penalty? As Warjay said below, if they caused their death they are not an AV. Or were there... extenuating circumstances which led to their murders? And are they a true asshole? This means they probably aren't missed by anyone, Draco in Leather Pants notwithstanding. This is not for a good guy that acts like a jerk in one cartoon episode and gets his comeuppence. That's Laser-Guided Karma. A character MUST be hated by the in Universe characters and the general audience. It is possible to feel sorry for an AV but they must be... well an asshole first.

Edited by Klavice on Sep 6th 2020 at 9:02:18 AM

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

Actually, I think the most important question is, "Does the asshole deserve their punishment"?

Because if they do, if they caused their own death, they're not an Asshole Victim. Asshole Victims suffer from things unrelated to their assholery.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

The most common form of misuse I see is when characters who caused their own punishment are labeled as an Asshole Victim. Also, does the character have to die to qualify?

Keet cleanup

The current description includes this line: "This is especially likely if the Asshole Victim's dickery is what motivated the criminal to commit the crime in the first place." Should this be cut?

Yeah, probably.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I think Raye Penber needs to go from Death Note on the Anime and Manga page, as he caused his own death.

Glad to hear things are working well, I didn't think Hiyoko from Danganronpa Goodbye Despair counts either since she was trying to turn a new leaf, just like Valerie Hawthorne from Ace Attorney who ALSO doesn't count. Teruteru meanwhile caused his own punishment, and was a Well intentioned Extremist. I feel every culprit in Danganronpa that got executed (including Tsumugi Shirogane) should be exempt from this as THEY themselves caused their own death by being jerks and murdering someone.

I'll bring up other examples from pages as I see fit. Feel free to bring up more examples yourselves.

Edit: Doug Swallow from Ace Attorney needs to go as well. I feel Asshole Victim cannot be subverted. You either are or you aren't.

Edited by Klavice on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:51:21 AM

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

What about the wrestling promoter from the first Spider-Man movie. Is it a karmic comeuppance? Or does the example allow non-lethal versions of this trope?

Bump. Pretty sure it HAS to be lethal. Someone being a victim of scamming/theft/fraud/what have you isn't a victim. This is a death trope so it should involve, death.

What does everyone think of me removing Shirogane ( Danganronpa V3's mastermind, who isn't even a AV even if we counted people who deserve their punishment as she dies literally from debris, an accident) and Hiyoko from Goodbye Despair (not enough of an asshole as she genuinely tried to make a memorial to her deceased friend.) Now if SHE were case 2's victim instead of Mahiru, since she never wronged Peko, she could count because she doesn't have that development from Case 2. Oh, and she's murdered by the person she bullied simply by walking in on a murder in progress. Wouldn't that be causing her own death.

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

Actually, according to the main page, there's a note that says "Note that the character doesn't have to die, just that they be victimized in some way beyond their control (if it was because of their own actions, then they're not examples); in some cases, "victim-shaped hole" can mean "victim of non-violent theft"." And so while an AV can be a Death Trope, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Also, is there a reason we haven't moved the changes from the Sandbox to the main page yet?

Because nobody asked to yet. I suppose we can clock and if nobody wants to trim Sandbox.Asshole Victim anywhere or has other ideas, to then launch it.

Edited by Amonimus on May 31st 2022 at 12:03:23 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

I can do it, if other tropers are fine with it.

Shamspeare of Great Ace Attorney is an interesting case.

First of all, he is loathsome and a criminal.

Second, he survived his attempted murder, only to be punished in the case where he is the victim. Does he count?

If he's not dead then it may be Kick The Son Of A Bitch instead. I'm not super confident on Asshole Victim scope.

Edited by Amonimus on Jun 3rd 2022 at 8:49:35 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

AV isn't solely a death trope anymore though, attempted murder is still murder, so he's still technically a victim even if he didn't die.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 3rd 2022 at 12:25:09 PM

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

AV was never solely a death trope actually.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

the sandbox is pretty much fine by me, unless you have something else to add/edit there.

Fair enough. Might be thinking of Who Murdered the Asshole one of its new subtropes.

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

It was already added as a Sub-Trope.

---

Thanks and I'll do it sometime.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Jun 3rd 2022 at 5:29:31 AM

A little while ago, someone added this entry to Toomoo's folder in Characters.Elfen Lied:

Afterwards, gjjones brought it back and stated the user ignored a commented-out warning. For the record, the warning in question says (not counting the percentages), "Please do not add the Asshole Victim trope to Tomoo. The trope is about an unsympathetic character who dies by something purely accidental, whereas Tomoo's death was caused by his own actions.".

I would ask to bring it back. However, I would have explained it better and this instance was a case of The Dog Bites Back, a Sub-Trope. This is because Toomoo (and the other orphans) were killed by the same person they horribly bullied. Their deaths also came after Toomoo killed said characters's puppy in front of her, just to get a reaction from her.^{For some context...} Toomoo is the leader of a Gang of Bullies, with all its members being orphans, and the bullying occurred at an orphanage. However, because the "purely accidental" part is no longer part of the trope, can I delete that commented-out warning?

Hmm. The entry itself would certainly have to be rewritten to look less…emotionally-charged, shall we put it.

(Don't) take me home.

That's why I said I would have had it written differently. Also, would it be fine if I remove the commented-warning which I discussed in the previous post?

EDIT: Though, I agree that it shouldn't have been as "emotionally-charged".

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Jun 20th 2022 at 5:52:24 AM

As an Audience Reaction and not a proper trope, does Catharsis Factor really belong as a sub-trope to Asshole Victim? I know the TRS thread decided upon its inclusion, but still...

Otherwise known as SolemnStormcloud.

Too often something listed as a Sub-Trope actually means "related tropes". It's kinda not correct.

Looking at it, nothing in the folder are real subtropes, the folder lists typical things that happen after the Asshole becomes a Victim or how.

Edited by Amonimus on Jun 20th 2022 at 8:05:25 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup