"They Wasted A Perfectly Good Character" Cleanup

From Xenoblade Chronicles 3:

• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character:
  • Most of the Consuls have gotten this reaction. The vast majority of them show up in one, at best two Hero Quests, and since they can be done in pretty much any order, that means they rarely get to appear outside of those quests, and thus don't have the development to really stand out as anything more than your average Monster of the Week. Some have noted this as an unfortunate consequence of having lots of characters in the villainous team, and it doesn't help that their designs don't feel visually distinct due to all using the same color scheme. Of note is Consul L, who only serves as a boss fight in Eunie's ascension quest, and is nothing more than Dumb Muscle, and Consul W, who has one of the more distinctive helmets, personalities and powersets of the Consuls, but only exists to be one half of Ashera's Ascension Quest's Dual Boss (with only a few minutes of screentime and less than ten lines).
    • Consuls X and Y deserve special mention. The two are members of the original Moebius, behind only Z himself in the group's hierarchy, and play crucial roles in making Aionios the oppressive hellhole that it is. And yet, they're treated as barely an afterthought. Much of Y's screentime is relegated to Mio's Ascension Quest, and it's possible to go through the whole game without fighting X at all. To add insult to injury, neither of them get proper death cutscenes after they're finally defeated, simply fading away like any generic enemy. For villains with genuinely cool designs, personality, and importance to the lore, they're barely given anything to do in the main story itself.
  • Many fans were disappointed in the lack of overt connections to the previous two main games during most of the main story, with Melia, Nia and Poppi (who only appears for a few seconds in the ending) being the only surviving characters. Many were hoping to see their favorite characters survive somehow due to their long lifespans, and are hopeful for more guest appearances via the Expansion Pass. Most notably, fans of Pyra and Mythra knew that, as Blades, they could easily survive far into the future just like Nia, and as the Aegis they wouldn't depend on Rex's lifespan. This got to the point that the duo were frequently requested and speculated to appear in-game prior to its release, and one anonymous fan even wrote a mock negative review for the game just because Pyra wasn't in it. In particular, Shulk and Rex only appear as photos at the very end of the game despite the two's actions being indirectly responsible for the worlds colliding, which some felt was a let down. While Ino addresses this somewhat by having her act like a Fish out of Temporal Water from Alrest who introduces the Ouroboros to its Driver/Blade system, there aren't any explicit connections made between her and Poppi, let alone other Alrestians important to the story and setting like Nia and Tora.
  • A common criticism of the fake Queens is that they act as a cop-out for explaining why returning characters Melia and Nia are now apparently antagonists. This take argues that having the masked Queens simply be the real Melia and Nia could have provided for a much more interesting setup and more storytelling potential, getting the chance to develop them even further and explore more of their backstories. While the fake Queens were understandably written not to overshadow their real counterparts later on, this results in two extra underdeveloped characters that serve as little more than boss fights and plot devices and raise more questions than answers, all while reducing the real Queens' screentime to much less than was initially implied and leaving them as relatively static characters. A particularly egregious example is the fake Queen of Keves returning in the final chapter — at a point where the party's met the real Nia and can easily confront the fake Melia on being a walking, talking lie — only for Crys to unceremoniously toss her aside to serve as the actual boss of Noah's side story. It's also seen as uncharacteristic for a Xeno game to dismiss and dehumanize its humanoid robot characters to such a degree, especially since XC3 doesn't commit in the opposite direction either and shows the Queens to have some sapience rather than being fully unthinking, inanimate puppets.

I agree with the first two entries about the Consuls, as that is indeed a common criticism about the game, and it did try to present them as more formiddable and individually important early on than they proved to be.

But the latter two entries sound like embittered wishful thinking, on top of being unnecessarily long and full of Natter. The evil queens being a fakeout is indeed disappointing, but after the reveal of their identities the game never suggests that they were going to have more characterization, not to mention the part about Xeno dehumanizing its robots is Natter and full of speculation.

IIRC the fake queens were cut already, and I'm pretty sure I remember you being involved in that discussion. That kind of looks like someone trying to readd the entry by just making it longer, which can't be kosher.

Yeah, it's the same person doing it too, and a serial tweaker on top of it. They originally added it to Anticlimax Boss before it was ruled as not a valid example, and I don't think it fits this YMMV either. Really seems like they have a personal bugbear with how the games handled the characters and are trying to shoehorn it wherever they can.

Hi, I see what you mean and apologize for re-adding the entry. It was an honest mistake on my part, since I thought that I was covering different aspects of the fake Queens. The Anticlimax Boss bit was specifically meant to address that the fake Queens were too easy to defeat as bosses moreso than the actual handling of their characters; that was probably Fan Myopia because I found them to be very easy and all the streamers I watched who fought them seemed to have an easy time as well, except for Enel during his speedrun.

For the They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character bit, I was putting down arguments that seemed to corroborate with mine and that were brought up by some streamers and various message board posts (i.e. implications that the actual Melia and Nia would turn out to have a large presence throughout the game only to be met with the fakeout), but I see that it may well just again be Fan Myopia on my part. I did personally dislike the plot twist because of the aforementioned reason and because it also made the fake Queens unnecessarily creepy to me, but I'd like to watch and improve my editing habits so I can stay a cooperative editor and don't butt heads with other tropers or break any rules.

That said, I do feel that there should be some trope/entry to cover how some fans of the previous two games were disappointed that XC3 turned out to only have very loose connections to previous entries after promotional material suggested it'd be a more closely-aligned sequel, which is an argument I've seen quite a bit and that I agree with (especially as a Mythra fan). I do feel, however, that it'd fit more closely under Broken Base once the time threshold has passed, since I've seen an equal or greater amount of praise towards the game's more standalone nature.

Edited by 2HeadedMoonOctopus on Dec 18th 2022 at 8:04:48 AM

This was added to YMMV.Pokemon Scarlet And Violet.

• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: For Violet's endgame Pokémon: The Future Pokémon are a source of contention in the fanbase. The Ancient Pokémon have unique names and unique design ideas, like Sandy Shocks having iron dust "hair" or Roaring Moon being feathered. The future Pokémon on the other hand are all given an "Iron" prefix and turned into robotic versions of their current-day versions. Not only is the repeated concept of "robot Pokémon" noticeable compared to the more varied Scarlet designs, it also wastes potential as there are other futuristic and sci-fi concepts besides robots that they could have played on.

I previously deleted a similar entry regarding them under the page as misuse. TWAPGC is when the interesting characters get insufficient screentime. This is comparing about their concept being less interesting/varied than Scarlet's counterparts, which get equal screentime. Permission to re-cut?

While here, does "They Underused A Perfectly Good Character" sound like a better name for this (given the frequent misuse it still gets)?

The most common misuse I've encountered is wishful thinking-type entries, aka "they should have done this with these characters" or "they should've added these characters I wanted to see but who weren't actually in the final work".

Neither of which I think would be fixed by name clarity, but which do have a lot of overlap with the ideas behind Better Than Canon or Fandom-Specific Plot (when someone acts on that idea to make a fan story).

Speaking of which, there's this entry I found on Captain America: The Winter Soldier:

This seems off, like there's two different ideas mixed together. The first part is just wishing they revealed that Pierce was the Red Skull the whole time. I can honestly say I haven't seen anyone really wishing that was the case. Most fans enjoyed Pierce for what he is, and while there were some people who wanted to see the Red Skull return, I don't think anyone was expecting that to be the case with Pierce (aside from the WMG crowd).

The second part is more understandable, since Pierce was killed off despite being a popular villain, but I'm not sure if that's entirely accurate. Pierce was still the Big Bad of the movie, and I think most people were satisfied that he was taken out at the end. There's plenty of other villains in the MCU I can think of when fans were disappointed that they were abruptly killed off, and I'm not sure if Pierce falls into that camp.

At the very least, the first part should be cut, but I'm fine with the entire entry going. Thoughts?

As someone who adores that movie and hangs out with a lot of other fans of it, that's the first time I've heard of it. Delete the whole thing, both for being misuse and for being what's likely one troper's Fix Fic presented as a more common opinion than it is.

Pierce is well-appreciated for being one of the more compelling villains pre-Phase 3 villains, but while I've seen some slight disappointment from comic fans that he wasn't Dell Rusk in disguise, nobody hates the way he was handled either, and I have never met anyone who didn't enjoy his death in a Love to Hate way. The TWS villain they do have that reaction to is Crossbones in Civil War.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 20th 2022 at 7:55:55 AM

(x3) About the rename, you'd need to see TRS about that, though I believe you'll need to do a Wick Check first.

For whatever it's worth, my own immediate reaction to seeing it suggested that Pierce should have secretly been the Red Skull is "What? No! That's a terrible idea!"

The entry, yeah, very much reads like someone's own fanfiction - the trope's fundamental and inherent problem that I just brought up elsewhere recently.

Asking again about YMMV.Pokemon Scarlet And Violet.

• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: For Violet's endgame Pokémon: The Future Pokémon are a source of contention in the fanbase. The Ancient Pokémon have unique names and unique design ideas, like Sandy Shocks having iron dust "hair" or Roaring Moon being feathered. The future Pokémon on the other hand are all given an "Iron" prefix and turned into robotic versions of their current-day versions. Not only is the repeated concept of "robot Pokémon" noticeable compared to the more varied Scarlet designs, it also wastes potential as there are other futuristic and sci-fi concepts besides robots that they could have played on.

This is complaining about the concept and that others might have been better, not screentime. Any reason not to cut?

I mean, there's precedent. Dell Rusk was the Secretary of Defense who was secretly developing black project weapons until the Avengers discovered his plans and foiled them. Likewise there's Alexander Lukin, who was a pupil of the Winter Soldier's previous master and who was possessed by the Red Skull after his seeming assassination. What we got ended up being perfectly fine, and I'm actually quite glad they went the way they did given its political commentary and continued relevance today, but there was reason for people to think that Pierce was the Red Skull in disguise since he proved to be very similar to two characters who were.

I'm honestly not sure what to do about that one. It's certainly something, just can't figure out a fitting trope at the top of my head. I do think the gist that one version's Pokemon are boring, uninspired, and repetitive compared to the other's more original forms is worth noting in some fashion.

Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 20th 2022 at 9:17:23 AM

Asked Trope Finder for what it may fit.

Should it now be removed from TWAPGC as misuse?

Yes, even if it did fit the trope, it's still a fringe opinion that doesn't make it clear it's a rare one.

There's a proposal here to merge They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot Cleanup and They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character Cleanup into "They Wasted a Perfectly Good Thread", the question is which of the two to morgue.

Found these in YMMV.Ys Memories Of Celceta

• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character:
  • While Dogi was present in Mask of the Sun and The Dawn of Ys, in Memories of Celceta he's written out of the story and relegated to only two scenes in Adol's memories explaining his absence, most likely for the same reason he wasn't allowed into Adol's party in Ys VIII: Lacrimosa of Dana^note Avoiding a Continuity Snarl that would be caused by Dogi interacting with mechanics introduced in Ys SEVEN, which occurs much later in the timeline. Made more jarring by the fact that he has actual character art in the game. unsure
  • Lilia is Adapted Out for the canon version of Ys IV. In Mask of the Sun, she chases Adol around Celceta due to her crush on him after the events of Ys II. One would wonder how this would play out in Memories of Celceta, with her having to interact with an amnesiac Adol who doesn't remember her from two years prior. seems very "wish this happened"
  • Gruda's motive for wanting the power of the Akashic Records has no build up or hints about how he came to his conclusions. The red memory nodes could have been used to show his progression from a law-abiding scholar to a mad Darwinist. Unfortunately, the party doesn't really say much to try to refute his Motive Rant, making his goals seem like an afterthought. unsure

I agree the second one doesn't count. I feel the first could use more context for the "Perfectly Good" part, while the third comes off as complaining to me.

From YMMV.Sonic Lost World

• The Deadly Six are generally considered lackluster, as they were given little depth as individuals or a race, piggyback off of Eggman's machines to pose any threat, and disappear without a trace in the finale while Eggman upstages them. For comparison sake, imagine if Chaos from Sonic Adventure was introduced but the story never bothered to have Tikal explain who he is, or he didn't have a specific goal (finding the Chaos Emeralds). A problem that comes from them is that they steal Eggman's technology, and don't have any particular goal beyond using the technology they stole from Eggman after Sonic set them free.

Removed because:

About unused plots or lack of screentime. Not poorly done.

Maybe it could be reinstated if they explained what about them suggests the potential to be interesting.

The game introduces an alien-oni race on a mythical Floating Continent, who turn into the main antagonists after Sonic kicks away the Conch that was keeping them under control.

However, the race isn’t given much detail beyond their Magnetism Manipulation to take control of Eggman’s Badniks (which they were using anyway while under his service), and their weakness to the aforementioned Conch. They’re pretty shallow as Pontac and Graff simply wrote them based on their designs. It’s not really clear what they were doing before Eggman enslaved them. They become “Eggman wannabes” by taking advantage of his technology. Ultimately, they disappear like ordinary enemies while Eggman takes over as Final Boss. Even the Lost Hex where they live basically just exists to be played on.

&Their potential might be a better fit for They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot. That the Deadly Six are listed under TheScrappy.Sonic The Hedgehog means they were seen as bad characters, not good characters underutilized.

The creator of Sandbox.They Wasted A Perfectly Good Character said I could take over as they abandon it when They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot which this was supposed to be a comparison for had its cleanup efforts elsewhere. Is it still worth holding onto/finishing or if we want a TWAPGC wick check do we want a fresh start so cut this sandbox?

(x4) If my memory is correct, they don't count because they're more so poorly used rather than underused. So, I feel the removal is justified.

Found these at YMMV.Xenoblade Chronicles 3

Can confirm these are extremely common opinions among the fanbase, and ones I also share. If you think they're too complainy or rambly I can help rewrite some of them.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 6th 2023 at 6:10:12 AM

sure, go ahead!