Sociopathic Hero

Well, i think making a basic clean up is in order. This is probably one of the most evident examples of Trope Decay, let's check some examples:

Batman is included (well the Tim Burton and Zack Snyder versions) because he kills mooks.

Shane in The Walking Dead, when was he the hero?

The Peter Pan example does not fit the description (is mora a case of psychosis)

I would keep Richard Chance from To Live and Die in L.A..

I would say that, if killing mooks defines a hero as sociopathic, then Luke and Han Solo should be there (they shoot a lot of storm troopers), but I better dont give any ideas. Therefore the Batman examples definitely do not apply in-context, as he's always shown killing in the heat of a battle, not planning to kill as Punisher does (which I think is a more notorious example of the trope, same with Dexter).

Other cases are truly examples of side characters that are not The Hero, like Vegetta or the two Death Note examples. It is a case of Trope Decay indeed because the definition is very specific; The Sociopath meet The Hero, not The Sociopath meets any other character that we like and is not technically a villain. For the other examples we have other tropes like Token Evil Teammate and Token Heroic Orc.

Other examples are esentially of heroes that kill (case of Huntress) which pretty much is like 80% of heroes (when did people start thinking that all heroes are like Mother Theresa by the way?). Anyway, it does need a clean up.

edited 11th Jan '17 10:27:18 PM by Dgon

Alright, let’s see.

Problem is the article is very Draco in Leather Pants-ish, I suggest making the clean-up based on this two criteria:

1- Removal of all examples that are not the hero. No matter how popular a side character can be, like Spike or Vegetta, if is not the hero then there’s another trope for him/her. (This do not apply to cases with multiple protagonist like, let’s say Watchmen, Sin City or League).

2- Removal of all example where the hero is not really sociopathic.

Yes, sorry but killing mooks is not by itself sociopathic. I’m not saying that in Real Life we should indulge vigilantism, on the contrary I’m totally against that, but in-fiction killing the bad guys is what 90% of heroes do. Not all heroes are Boy Scouts like Superman, most heroes kill at some point.

So what’s sociopathic? To be destructive to society in general and to society’s laws and norms. James Bond and Batman kill mooks, but they in most of their representations abide to the law and/or the regulations of authorities. Punisher is a good example of a sociopathic hero. He has no quarrels in blowing up buildings for example and he disregard entirely the authorities. Not feeling remorse (which by the way in some cases is very speculative from the troper placing the example) for killing a criminal can be harsh but is still not sociopathic (even more, a lot of people do not feel bad for the dead of bad people).

Examples of the # 1 case:

(Keep in mind that my knowledge of animes and videogames is very limited so I can hardly do something on those sections, but I do with what I know):

• Death Note has two examples:
  • Mello is a ruthless mafia boss whose methods include kidnapping, extortion, and killing his own men and anyone who gets in his way, but he is technically speaking on the same side as the detectives.

  • Near is even more manipulative than L, and treats the case as if it were a game or puzzle and the other people in it merely expendable pawns.

• Bleach: Mayuri Kurotsuchi and Kenpachi Zaraki are sometimes depicted this way but can also veer into the Heroic Comedic Sociopath trope as well.

• Dragon Ball Z has Vegeta when he was the Token Evil Teammate.

• Baccano!:
  • Elmer C. Albatross is a genuine "essence of pure evil" sociopath who, thankfully for the world around him, decided that working For Happiness was more interesting than working For the Evulz.

  • Claire Stanfield is a bloodthirsty assassin who honestly believes that the world revolves around him, but nonetheless decides to help defend the passengers of the Flying Pussyfoot.
• In the Churchill biopic Into the Storm (2009), we have General "Bomber" Harris, who is the one to suggest and execute the bombing of Dresden and in one scene brags about it.
• In the 4th, 5th and 6th seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the soulless vampire Spike plays this role, at first against his will, under the influence of an implanted chip that causes him pain when he attacks something with a soul. Now, his only outlet for his violent predilection is beating up monsters and demons. He sides with the heroes more out of boredom, looking for something to do. Later, he begins to do good for the love of a female character, but only because that's what she would want him to do. His transition to true selflessness occurs without him ever becoming capable of the soulful qualities that distinguish humans from Buffyverse vampires; for that reason, his final act of Season 6 is to seek a real soul. [This is more a case of Token Heroic Orc or Token Evil Teammate]

• In the 5th season of Angel, the vampire Harmony works for the good guys, but her motivation is her own personal development. She does good because it seems like an interesting thing to do. In the finale, she turns on Angel, because as a soulless demon, it's just not in her nature to do good. Angel saw this coming and made it part of his plan—he even left a Letter of Recommendation for her, since he was going to blow up the firm and wasn't planning on killing her.[Idem]

• Shane in The Walking Dead slowly slides into this role. By the second season when he shoots Otis in the leg and leaves him to be killed by zombies he's this fully.

• In the BBC's Jekyll, "Hyde is love - and love is a psychopath." [Hyde is suppose to be the villain if I’m not wrong].

Examples of the # 2 case:

• Midnighter of The Authority definitely counts. The whole team can cross into this territory Depending on the Writer, but Midnighter is the go-to guy for killing foes en mass and grinning maniacally about it. He has had moments of strange compassion, though, such as the time he changed tactics halfway through getting his ass kicked by Tank Man and instead talked him into recognising his own self-worth and retiring. They became pen pals afterwards! [So the example itself is saying that the guy is not really sociopathic and shows empathy to a mook?]

• Huntress has killed a lot of people, and has never seemed to feel any guilt about it. Yes, the people she kills are dangerous criminals, and generally deserve to die, but she is never shown feeling any guilt or moral qualms about it.

• Damian Wayne, biological son of Batman, is this often. Someone once asked him "I like this Mr. Super Spy. How did he survive knowing you?" (Mr.Super Spy is Grayson.) [sociopathy is condition, can’t be “sometimes”].

• Michael Keaton's Batman is probably the closest this character has come to appearing as a sociopath on film. He's not really a sociopath in that he will genuinely care about you (though not be sentimental about it) as long as you're a good guy. If not, then he'll have no problem with killing you, sometimes even gleefully.

• It can be argued that he is only as dark towards his enemies as they are towards everyone else and given what his enemies are like...it comes across as necessary.

• Zack Snyder's Batman from Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is also an excellent example of this trope, as he has been indiscriminately killing criminals for decades by the time Bv S occurs.
• Depending on the actor, James Bond is a borderline case. Being a 00 agent requires it, in some ways, as one has to kill in cold blood; that is, without the deceased having been any direct, active threat to the agent.
  • Daniel Craig's is explicitly intended to play this trope straight, showing no remorse for killing two men, and feeling perfectly justified in breaking into his supervisor's home in the middle of the night. However, he mellows considerably later on, and continues to do so in the sequels, grieving when M is killed in Skyfall.

• Ripley in Alien: Resurrection. This Ripley is extremely cynical and callous, due to partially merging with the Aliens. A doctor theorizes that she has some form of emotional autism. Some examples of her sociopathy are trying to strangle Dr. Wren on a whim, breaking another doctor's arm immediately after she wakes up (in a deleted scene), and looking at another character getting dragged off by the Aliens with curious fascination. The only time she shows any real emotion is when she finds her other clones and incinerates them, and when her "son" (the Newborn) dies.
  • She does, however, clearly form an emotional bond with Call, which is shown increasingly clearer at the end of the movie. In fact, said bond between a hybrid human-alien creature and a synthetic, the latter of which is probably the character with the most intact moral compass in the entire film, who cares most about humanity and the threat the Xenomorphs present to it, seems to be part of an Aesop. [I agrre with this troper].

• Private Joker from Full Metal Jacket proudly states he joined the Marines for the sole purpose of killing people and bragging about it. Though his actions throughout the film somewhat contradict this. [If the actions contradict it then is not an example is it?]

(Literature section)

• James Bond shows considerable devotion to MI 6, to Britain and to long-time friends like Felix Leiter - but he does fit this trope. To his credit, he is not as relentless as many other examples; a Mook that can be gotten out of the way non-fatally will generally not be killed 'because it's easier'.
  • Partly due to Characterization Marching On, Bond eventually steps out of this role, becoming much less sociopathic and more likable. Some of the short stories in particular, such as "For Your Eyes Only" and "The Hildebrand Rarity" in For Your Eyes Only and "The Living Daylights" in Octopussy and the Living Daylights, reveal a Bond uncomfortable with targeted assassinations (as opposed to killing in defense of himself and others) and capable of considerable empathy. From Russia with Love also has him feeling discomfort when Kerim shoots a fleeing hitman in the back. And in Dr. No, when Bond is forced to shoot the three guards, he feels very uncomfortable doing it, even though said men could have been the Three Blind Mice and were heading off to gang-rape Honey. [The example debunks itself].'

Other/Unsure

• Captain Nemo here (has no context why should be included): Griffin (the Invisible Man), Captain Nemo, and Mr. Hyde in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Griffin commits a Face–Heel Turn. Hyde does not, and takes Griffin's betrayal... Poorly.

• Sherlock Holmes of Sherlock certainly plays with the trope a lot, with Sherlock even referring to himself as a "high-functioning sociopath" on two occasions. He doesn't seem to care at all about the people who bring him his cases, only solves them to keep himself from getting bored, and is definitely not above charming, lying to, and manipulating anyone - including his best friend, John - as long as it helps solve the mystery.
  • From Season 2 on, it becomes increasingly clear that, although he identifies himself as a "high-functioning sociopath", he really isn't, and Steven Moffat has more or less confirmed it. While he is seldom sympathetic, he is occasionally empathetic (a trait most true sociopaths lack), and genuinely caring about the few people he has allowed into his life; John, Mrs. Hudson, Le Strade, Molly and Mary. [One of those cases were the original example is latter questioned.]

Well, opinions? Objections?

edited 13th Jan '17 12:10:19 PM by Luppercus

Alright, I see no objections I will proceed. Thanks.

Can a sociopathic hero also be a pragmatic hero?